2023 NHL draft rankings

[Curt]

4 hours ago, Eleven said:

He's a 2/3 C on a good team. He currently is a 1/2 on a 6th place team in the Central.  Do you think he'd he a 1/2 C on the current Sabres?  (The correct answer begins with the letter 'n'.)

And no, he is NOT more valuable than Jokiharju on this team as currently constructed.   The team needs NHL defensemen NOW, not centers three years from now.

Even if Adams were to trade Joker for Thomas straight up, right now, he'd be castigated, and rightly so, unless he immediately flipped another C for a D.

Geez.

Shortstops don't pitch.  Running backs don't catch.  Goalkeepers don't dribble the ball upfield.  And 20th overall picks, whatever position, typically don't play.  The team needs defensemen NOW, it has one, and people want to trade him for a freaking chance at catching lightning in a bottle.  And all of this assumes Seattle wants Joker, which is a heck of a premise to begin with.

Thomas has 77 points in 72 games last season for a 109 point team.  I don’t think he is a borderline 2/3 C.  That’s a bit harsh.  He probably isn’t good enough to be a 1C on a good team, but he is probably a good 2C for a top team.

[Eleven]

29 minutes ago, Curt said:

It took Jokiharju 1.5-2 seasons to establish himself as a regular nhl player.

He played nearly half a season in 2018-19 and a full NHL season in 2019-20.

No, it took him three--and that's because he was traded here, where we had no defensemen.  Look at the numbers again.  His season split between Rockford and Chicago does not count as a "regular NHL player."  That's the point.

I'm not trading my telescope for Professor Copperfield's Miracle Legumes, thank you.  

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, Eleven said:

No, it took him three--and that's because he was traded here, where we had no defensemen.  Look at the numbers again.  His season split between Rockford and Chicago does not count as a "regular NHL player."  That's the point.

I'm not trading my telescope for Professor Copperfield's Miracle Legumes, thank you.  

You sure the split season doesn't count?  Had Quenneville remained the coach he would've spent the full year in Chicago.  He didn't fit into what the next guy wanted to do.

[Curt]

58 minutes ago, Eleven said:

No, it took him three--and that's because he was traded here, where we had no defensemen.  Look at the numbers again.  His season split between Rockford and Chicago does not count as a "regular NHL player."  That's the point.

I'm not trading my telescope for Professor Copperfield's Miracle Legumes, thank you.  

Meh, difference in verbiage maybe.

I agree his split season does really count, but……

After his D+2 season, he was a full time NHLer and never played another game in the minors, so I say it took him 2 years.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Curt

[Eleven]

52 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You sure the split season doesn't count?  Had Quenneville remained the coach he would've spent the full year in Chicago.  He didn't fit into what the next guy wanted to do.

And if Q wasn't the coach, he may never have seen the NHL.  Did he spend the whole season in the NHL?  No.  So no, it doesn't count.  Come on, man.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Eleven

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, Eleven said:

And if Q wasn't the coach, he may never have seen the NHL.  Did he spend the whole season in the NHL?  No.  So no, it doesn't count.  Come on, man.

Which coach was/is the better hockey coach?  (Not veering this into Liger's weeds about things non hockey related.)  And which one actually played Henri?  (Hint, it ain't the one that nobody can remember.)

C'mon you're going to say if Nolan plays you but Ruff doesn't you're even a part timer?  And vice versa?

[Eleven]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Which coach was/is the better hockey coach?  (Not veering this into Liger's weeds about things non hockey related.)  And which one actually played Henri?  (Hint, it ain't the one that nobody can remember.)

C'mon you're going to say if Nolan plays you but Ruff doesn't you're even a part timer?  And vice versa?

Who cares?  Fact is, he was a part timer.  Not a regular.  You're the one introducing extraneous factors, not me.

And as your sidebar is distracting from the main point, as well, how many levels of irrelevance do we have to explore?  Point is and was: Trading Joker for a 20th overall pick is stupid.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Eleven

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Who cares?  Fact is, he was a part timer.  Not a regular.  You're the one introducing extraneous factors, not me.

And your sidebar distracting from the main point, as well.  Trading Joker for a 20th overall pick is stupid.

But he WAS a regular.  Until his coach went away.  Not his fault that the new boss (with no street cred) didn't see him the way the old one (with street cred in spades) did.

And, in Buffalo, until his partner went away he was arguably the best D-man on the team.  (Talk about a long time ago and how far this D has come.  It's not inconceivable to say he's at best the 5th best D-man on THIS current team playing occassionally with a guy that will win a Norris or 3 before his career is done.

[Eleven]

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

But he WAS a regular.  Until his coach went away.  Not his fault that the new boss (with no street cred) didn't see him the way the old one (with street cred in spades) did.

And, in Buffalo, until his partner went away he was arguably the best D-man on the team.  (Talk about a long time ago and how far this D has come.  It's not inconceivable to say he's at best the 5th best D-man on THIS current team playing occassionally with a guy that will win a Norris or 3 before his career is done.

Your first paragraph continues to argue irrelevant and tangential incorrect info (he was NOT a regular that year), and your second paragraph supports what I'm saying.

You know I love you, but are you arguing just to argue right now?  There's bouncey-ball on!  Or even the last episode of Ted Lasso, which is much more excellent than the 20th pick in 2023 is likely to be.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Your first paragraph continues to argue irrelevant and tangential incorrect info (he was NOT a regular that year), and your second paragraph supports what I'm saying.

You know I love you, but are you arguing just to argue right now?  There's bouncey-ball on!  Or even the last episode of Ted Lasso, which is much more excellent than the 20th pick in 2023 is likely to be.

Just hanging out with the dog on the deck listening to some serious Mark Knopfler riffs from Dire Straits golden era.  (Moving Pictures - Brothers in Arms)  And while doing so having some good internet conversations.  B-E-A-U-tiful night out tonight.

[Carmel Corn]

25 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Who cares?  Fact is, he was a part timer.  Not a regular.  You're the one introducing extraneous factors, not me.

And as your sidebar is distracting from the main point, as well, how many levels of irrelevance do we have to explore?  Point is and was: Trading Joker for a 20th overall pick is stupid.

IDK, IMHO - Joki is at best a 3rd pairing guy who has tried playing a top 4 role...and he's not up to the challenge.  If management can sign a top 4 UFA player like Graves, then I would not mind seeing Joki traded for a 20th overall....so that we can maybe draft Simashev this year.

[Curt]

1 minute ago, Carmel Corn said:

IDK, IMHO - Joki is at best a 3rd pairing guy who has tried playing a top 4 role...and he's not up to the challenge.  If management can sign a top 4 UFA player like Graves, then I would not mind seeing Joki traded for a 20th overall....so that we can maybe draft Simashev this year.

I would be careful trading Jokiharju for an 18 year old defender who is still a couple years from the NHL.

I don’t know how the future will unfold, but Jokiharju is a 23 year old NHL defenseman.  That’s generally still a few years from their peak for defensemen.

Seems dangerous to assume that because he hasn’t quite been up to the task of playing serious top-4 mins, that he won’t get there in the future.  I can definitely see him settling in as a #4 for several years, from ages 25-32,for example.

[Eleven]

21 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

so that we can maybe draft Simashev this year.

I'm not saying I'm on board with the idea--I'll flatly say that I am not (and they can take him at 13 if he's that good)--but thank you for at least providing some concreteness to the discussion.

29 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Just hanging out with the dog on the deck listening to some serious Mark Knopfler riffs from Dire Straits golden era.  (Moving Pictures - Brothers in Arms)  And while doing so having some good internet conversations.  B-E-A-U-tiful night out tonight.

Great albums.  It also took 1980s me WAY too long to distinguish Mark Knopfler from Bob Geldof.  I think it was the fs.  

Edited June 2, 2023 by Eleven

[Carmel Corn]

20 minutes ago, Curt said:

I would be careful trading Jokiharju for an 18 year old defender who is still a couple years from the NHL.

I don’t know how the future will unfold, but Jokiharju is a 23 year old NHL defenseman.  That’s generally still a few years from their peak for defensemen.

Seems dangerous to assume that because he hasn’t quite been up to the task of playing serious top-4 mins, that he won’t get there in the future.  I can definitely see him settling in as a #4 for several years, from ages 25-32,for example.

Yes, time will tell.  I am at a loss though to state if there is anything particularly strong about Joki's play that can serve as a foundation for him to build from.  IMHO, he is simply "meh" at every aspect of the D-man role.  I can't think of anything he does that is above average and the only redeeming quality he has is being a right hander. Is he better than Bryson or Clague, absolutely....but those two should not even be in the NHL.

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Yes, time will tell.  I am at a loss though to state if there is anything particularly strong about Joki's play that can serve as a foundation for him to build from.  IMHO, he is simply "meh" at every aspect of the D-man role.  I can't think of anything he does that is above average and the only redeeming quality he has is being a right hander. Is he better than Bryson or Clague, absolutely....but those two should not even be in the NHL.

Jokiharju is a 2 way defenseman that has strengths and weaknesses at both ends of the ice and in transition too.  He is in the mold of Toni Lydman.  Hopefully with a couple more seasons under his belt he becomes that player.

He'll never be a legit top pairing guy but could top out as a legit 4 on a good team; but with the 2 1st overalls the Sabres have, that could be good enough in a couple of years.  (Remember, though Lydman was a 4/5, he was 1/2 of the best D tandem this team had seen for nearly 20 years since McKee Warrener.)

[LGR4GM]

This draft has average depth at best. Depth refers to how many NHL players we would expect to get out of this draft and the average is about 50ish. The 2023 draft looks good to outsiders because of the talent in the top 3-4 but once you clear that it becomes exceedingly average and IMPO it is a lesser draft than 2019 which had an exceptionally strong depth. 

What I am saying is this draft is average. We shouldn't be concerned with using an asset like the 13th overall pick wisely in a trade. Same goes for pick 39 and 45. It isn't like because Bedard is around we can expect to get Brayden Point at 39 because DEPTH!, instead it is pretty normal talent wise once you hit that 4/5th pick. 

[Flashsabre]

35 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This draft has average depth at best. Depth refers to how many NHL players we would expect to get out of this draft and the average is about 50ish. The 2023 draft looks good to outsiders because of the talent in the top 3-4 but once you clear that it becomes exceedingly average and IMPO it is a lesser draft than 2019 which had an exceptionally strong depth. 

What I am saying is this draft is average. We shouldn't be concerned with using an asset like the 13th overall pick wisely in a trade. Same goes for pick 39 and 45. It isn't like because Bedard is around we can expect to get Brayden Point at 39 because DEPTH!, instead it is pretty normal talent wise once you hit that 4/5th pick. 

Who would you consider a “wise” trade for 13th? Hellebuyck, Hanafin, 

I wouldn’t have a problem with either or a 2nd for Tanev. Just depends what else is added in addition to either pick.

To me a big part of development is putting young guys in positions to succeed and grow. Having a goalie the quality of Hellebuyck here even if just for a year will help Levi’s development exponentially. I was reading about Jonas Gustafson in Minny. He was a young goalie who hadn’t had a lot of success. He went to the Wild and got around  Fluery who showed him how to prepare and train and he ends up having a terrific season this year.

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

This draft has average depth at best. Depth refers to how many NHL players we would expect to get out of this draft and the average is about 50ish. The 2023 draft looks good to outsiders because of the talent in the top 3-4 but once you clear that it becomes exceedingly average and IMPO it is a lesser draft than 2019 which had an exceptionally strong depth. 

What I am saying is this draft is average. We shouldn't be concerned with using an asset like the 13th overall pick wisely in a trade. Same goes for pick 39 and 45. It isn't like because Bedard is around we can expect to get Brayden Point at 39 because DEPTH!, instead it is pretty normal talent wise once you hit that 4/5th pick. 

I think your assessment is accurate.

Bedard is dazzling.

Fantilli is a potential 1C.

Michkov could be the best of them all.

Carlsson and Smith could become top 6 NHLers.

After these 5 there are no guys that jump off of the page. There are some that may end up as stars but that happens every year. There will be some diamonds in the rough and I hope the Sabres staff finds one maybe two.

13th should be in play.
They can get a future NHLer, but it will be in Rosen, Östlund, Kulich level for forwards. As far as Dmen go, Simashev, Sandin-Pellikka, Reinbacher could all be available at 13. I see them as becoming 3-5 Dmen. I would gamble on Simashev because his rank has risen lately and his upside is Mule with better skating and offense.

[kas23]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

This draft has average depth at best. Depth refers to how many NHL players we would expect to get out of this draft and the average is about 50ish. The 2023 draft looks good to outsiders because of the talent in the top 3-4 but once you clear that it becomes exceedingly average and IMPO it is a lesser draft than 2019 which had an exceptionally strong depth. 

What I am saying is this draft is average. We shouldn't be concerned with using an asset like the 13th overall pick wisely in a trade. Same goes for pick 39 and 45. It isn't like because Bedard is around we can expect to get Brayden Point at 39 because DEPTH!, instead it is pretty normal talent wise once you hit that 4/5th pick. 

I don’t think the “depth” of the draft matters to “outsiders” either. Most drafts have average depth outside of the first few picks and definitely after the first dozen or so picks. That didn’t stop Sabre insiders from picking JJP at #34 in 2020 or Kulich at #28 last draft. I’ll let them roll those dice. 

[Marvin]

This could come down to who is available when the Sabres are on the clock.  They might have a trade queued up if, say, the top 3 D are all gone by #13.

[Crusader1969]

Who doesn’t want more draft rankings?

https://www.flohockey.tv/articles/11020195-final-2023-nhl-draft-rankings-unveiled-connor-bedard-tops-list?utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=thumbnail.2023nhldraftranksfinal&utm_content=article&utm_campaign=2023nhldraft

[Flashsabre]

57 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Who doesn’t want more draft rankings?

https://www.flohockey.tv/articles/11020195-final-2023-nhl-draft-rankings-unveiled-connor-bedard-tops-list?utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_source=twitter&utm_term=thumbnail.2023nhldraftranksfinal&utm_content=article&utm_campaign=2023nhldraft

I’m disappointed none of them have tried to stick out by having Bedard ranked 5th and Michkov falling to the 4th round.😛

[Curt]

I’ve been checking out some options for defensemen in rounds 2-4, because Sabres have picks 39, 45, 86, and 109.  Some RHD who caught my eye were:

Tom Willander

Oliver Bonk

Hunter Brzustewicz

Maxim Strbak

Cameron Allen

Aran Minnetian 

Andrew Gibson

Dylan MacKinnon

Gavin McCarthy

Anyone have strong opinions about any of these guys?

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Curt said:

I’ve been checking out some options for defensemen in rounds 2-4, because Sabres have picks 39, 45, 86, and 109.  Some RHD who caught my eye were:

Tom Willander

Oliver Bonk

Hunter Brzustewicz

Maxim Strbak

Cameron Allen

Aran Minnetian 

Andrew Gibson

Dylan MacKinnon

Gavin McCarthy

Anyone have strong opinions about any of these guys?

Not about the player himself, but Willander has a far better chance of being the pick at 13 than 39.

He, Simashev, Reinbacher and Sandin-Pellika will be the first 4 D taken and from what I’m reading any of them could go top 15

[Curt]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Not about the player himself, but Willander has a far better chance of being the pick at 13 than 39.

He, Simashev, Reinbacher and Sandin-Pellika will be the first 4 D taken and from what I’m reading any of them could go top 15

I don’t disagree.  Just casting a wide net.