Rd 1, #28 Jiri Kulich (C)

[dudacek]

You’re correct about the surrounding drafts not working.

Kids weren’t ready as quickly as we wanted them and the Sabres didn’t do a good job supporting them with veterans.

Bowman also was probably stretched too thin and a little too smart for his own good.

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, Curt said:

I see a wide path towards success for the Sabres.  I’m optimistic yet I also realize there are ways for it to go wrong.

What went wrong for that group in the mid-late 80s?

Mainly Bowman.

He couldn't allow himself to just stay as the GM.  He kept going back to coaching too and ended up not doing either job particularly well.

When he finally got fired, Sator got them playing well for a while during the 1st part of '87 & it looked like they'd pass the Nordiques and sneak into the playoffs but then the wheels fell off again & they finished the year as they'd started it- dead last.

[Doohicksie]

20 minutes ago, Curt said:

What went wrong for that group in the mid-late 80s?

I think it was a case of they hadn't fully deconstructed the mid-70s core and were trying to bandaid that to success?  That team seems more like the 2015 Sabres than the 2022 edition. 

[Curt]

50 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You’re correct about the surrounding drafts not working.

Kids weren’t ready as quickly as we wanted them and the Sabres didn’t do a good job supporting them with veterans.

Bowman also was probably stretched too thin and a little too smart for his own good.

 

46 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Mainly Bowman.

He couldn't allow himself to just stay as the GM.  He kept going back to coaching too and ended up not doing either job particularly well.

When he finally got fired, Sator got them playing well for a while during the 1st part of '87 & it looked like they'd pass the Nordiques and sneak into the playoffs but then the wheels fell off again & they finished the year as they'd started it- dead last.

 

34 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think it was a case of they hadn't fully deconstructed the mid-70s core and were trying to bandaid that to success?  That team seems more like the 2015 Sabres than the 2022 edition. 

Didn’t live through it, but looking at the drafts, the 80, 81, 84, 85, and 87 (apart from Turgeon) drafts look brutal.  Looks like there couldn’t have been enough talent coming through to supplement the players taken in 82-83.

I know I’m crafting my own narrative but that’s why I feel pretty good about the current team.  They already have a group of young veterans in place (Skinner, Thompson, Tuch, Olofsson, Cozens, Mittelstadt, Asplund, Dahlin, Jokiharju) and they are currently folding in a group of high end prospects to the NHL team (Quinn, Peterka, Krebs, Samuelsson, Power).  Then they have a huge number of prospects, literally 20+, following them up in the next 3-4 years.  Not all of those 20+ will make it in the NHL, but I’m confident that several will.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Curt

[dudacek]

I’m optimistic too, but the Bowman teams weren’t bereft of veterans. They had Ramsey and Foligno in particular in the young vet role, plus Ramsay, Perreault in the senior role, but he also blew off young vets like Savard and McKegney and targeted wasted talents like Cloutier and McCourt.

This group feels deeper and more purposeful, but we shall see.

I know Taro and Weave are correct on the odds, and we can probably mock this post in 5 years, but I get good feelings about Kulich, Östlund and Savoie. They just seem wired the right way.

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

 

Didn’t live through it, but looking at the drafts, the 80, 81, 84, 85, and 87 (apart from Turgeon) drafts look brutal.  Looks like there couldn’t have been enough talent coming through to supplement the players taken in 82-83.

I know I’m crafting my own narrative but that’s why I feel pretty good about the current team.  They already have a group of young veterans in place (Skinner, Thompson, Tuch, Olofsson, Cozens, Mittelstadt, Asplund, Dahlin, Jokiharju) and they are currently folding in a group of high end prospects to the NHL team (Quinn, Peterka, Krebs, Samuelsson, Power).  Then they have a huge number of prospects, literally 20+, following them up in the next 3-4 years.  Not all of those 20+ will make it in the NHL, but I’m confident that several will.

Yeah, this re-relaunch is significantly different than the '14 version in that there are players in "top 9 roles" currently better than the immediate draft picks & they'll hold their roles until the kids are ready to supplant them.  

The other big difference is though Murray talked of having some prospects that would be NHLers & some that wouldn't & he'd figure it out & trade the ones that might look like they'd make it from the outside, he ended up trading away a lot of high picks before they ever became prospects and he traded away a fair number of prospects that did make it & kept several more that didn't.  So far, Adams seems to be following the line Murray claimed he'd follow.  He's kept most all his picks and hasn't been trading prospects yet.  That latter part will have to change in the next few years or some good prospects will simply walk at 25 as they'll become younger UFAs having never had the chance to play at the top level.

Can really see the Sabres consistently having extra draft picks as they start to trade some of the prospects they don't have room for for 2nd & 3rd rounders.  Thus keeping that pipeline stocked & rerestocked.

[Amerks8796]

1 hour ago, Flashsabre said:

The Czechia Men’s League isn’t very strong. It’s not like playing in the KHL or SHL or Liiga. The AHL is very tough on 18 year olds. Girgs development was derailed by playing in the AHL as an 18 year old. 

They might decide that the AHL is the best option for him but the Q would be an easier transition and there is no problem dominating for development. Build up his confidence.

He is an interesting case. Every case is different and maybe he is ready for the AHL.

Girgensons had a very good 18 year old year in the AHL. Perhaps you meant someone else. He started slowly and was one of the better players on the team by the end of the year, definitely the Amerks best player in the playoffs that year. 

[Taro T]

9 minutes ago, Amerks8796 said:

Girgensons had a very good 18 year old year in the AHL. Perhaps you meant someone else. He started slowly and was one of the better players on the team by the end of the year, definitely the Amerks best player in the playoffs that year. 

Didn't Z suffer a concussion or shoulder injury that kept him out of a lot of games that 1st AHL year.  Maybe that's what the OP was referring to?

[Brawndo]

29 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Didn't Z suffer a concussion or shoulder injury that kept him out of a lot of games that 1st AHL year.  Maybe that's what the OP was referring to?

Concussion 

[Amerks8796]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Didn't Z suffer a concussion or shoulder injury that kept him out of a lot of games that 1st AHL year.  Maybe that's what the OP was referring to?

Yes. But he came back fine and was the teams best player by the end of the year. Certainly wasn’t a mistake for him to turn pro that year. 

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

They already have a group of young veterans in place (Skinner, Thompson, Tuch, Olofsson, Cozens, Mittelstadt, Asplund, Dahlin, Jokiharju) and they are currently folding in a group of high end prospects to the NHL team (Quinn, Peterka, Krebs, Samuelsson, Power).  Then they have a huge number of prospects, literally 20+, following them up in the next 3-4 years.  Not all of those 20+ will make it in the NHL, but I’m confident that several will.

Yep.  I was going to say that but I was too lazy 😄

[Taro T]

48 minutes ago, Amerks8796 said:

Yes. But he came back fine and was the teams best player by the end of the year. Certainly wasn’t a mistake for him to turn pro that year. 

Agree w/ you.  But was curious if that's why he thought it was a bad year for him.

[Andrew Amerk]

10 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Everyone jumped on the Eich bandwagon but me.

I can’t lie, I was super stoked on John after seeing him play for the first time in person. 

I liked Samson for what he was, but never liked the idea of building around him as a core piece. 

[MattPie]

9 hours ago, Curt said:

I would contrast that with the 2018-2019-2020 drafts which look like the will yield several good players.  I’m sticking with the idea that the current Sabres are reaching a critical mass of good young players those players will push each other to great heights and the Buffalo Sabres will be a contender for several years.

Almost all drafts look good 2-4 years later, unfortunately. Rare is the player that gets drafted and then completely washes out immediately. The usual path is more like still good in the CHL for a year or two, then some time in the AHL where they just can't quite make the jump to the NHL by 24 or so.

9 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

The Czechia Men’s League isn’t very strong. It’s not like playing in the KHL or SHL or Liiga. The AHL is very tough on 18 year olds. Girgs development was derailed by playing in the AHL as an 18 year old. 

They might decide that the AHL is the best option for him but the Q would be an easier transition and there is no problem dominating for development. Build up his confidence.

He is an interesting case. Every case is different and maybe he is ready for the AHL.

Anyone know how the CHL's no-AHL rules work in this case? Right now, he can play in either the AHL or NHL, but if he starts playing for a CHL team, is he stuck there unless it's the NHL or until he's 20? I'd think he'd sign a CHL contract and then be held to those rules, but maybe a loan changes that.

[Curt]

6 minutes ago, MattPie said:

Almost all drafts look good 2-4 years later, unfortunately. Rare is the player that gets drafted and then completely washes out immediately. The usual path is more like still good in the CHL for a year or two, then some time in the AHL where they just can't quite make the jump to the NHL by 24 or so.

This is true enough.  But I’d argue that we are 4 years past the 2018 draft and Dahlin and Samuelsson are pretty much locks to be good NHL players.  Same with Cozens from 2019, and all 5 other prospects from that draft are still in play. 2020 gives us Quinn and Peterka who both are basically certain to at least make the NHL and are trending for much more than that.

[dudacek]

19 hours ago, Curt said:

What did happen during those years?

Whats the cautionary take away?

To me it looks like there was a lot of crappy drafting surrounding the 83 and 83 drafts.  Is there a lot more to it than that?

I was thinking about this a little more. 

I see two major differences between this year and 1983: the depth of the pipeline; and the way the prospects are being filtered in.

The current Sabres rode a first wave (Thompson, Tuch, Olofsson, Dahlin, Jokiharju) of youngish players around 4 years into their pro careers who have emerged as legit NHLers, but have yet firmly establish their ceilings

They are introducing a second wave of players just starting to establish themselves (Cozens, Krebs, Asplund, Peterka, Mittelstadt, Quinn, Samuelsson, Power, UPL) who have yet to show what they are capable of.

And they have a 3rd wave coming (Levi, Portillo, Johnson, Rosen, Poltapov, Kisakov, Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Leinonen, And maybe more) that they can afford to have percolate until they force their way into, or past, the first two groups.

Compare this to the summer of 1984, when the Sabres had:

Foligno, Ruff and Ramsey in the 1st group

Andreychuk, Housley, Barrasso, Cyr, McKenna, Moller, Virta in the 2nd

Tucker, Patrick, Creighton, Lacombe, Andersson, Trapp, Anderson, Johanssen, Dudacek

All three groups seem deeper now. The 2nd group now is older than the teenagers filling it then. And the current group includes 2 1st overall picks.

Edited July 18, 2022 by dudacek

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I can’t lie, I was super stoked on John after seeing him play for the first time in person. 

I liked Samson for what he was, but never liked the idea of building around him as a core piece. 

Samson was Sundance to Eich's Butch Cassidy. 

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

2020 gives us Quinn and Peterka who both are basically certain to at least make the NHL and are trending for much more than that.

Don't forget about Matteo Constantini. 

Also, regarding the prospects that attended camp... Mike Harrington seems to think the pool is pretty deep.

 

[dudacek]

It will be interesting to see where the Sabres go with Kulich this year given his apparently advanced development status.

• Continue to play with men in the Czech league where he can challenge himself to elevate to a top 6 role and develop his body and his confidence in a comfortable social environment while postponing his cultural and small-ice adjustment.
• Dominate his peers and pile up big numbers while getting used to North American culture and rinks in the Q.
• Risk being over his head in the AHL while getting hands-on teaching from the Sabres staff and cultural support from the Czech mafia of Rousek and Pekar.

From what I’ve seen of Kulich’s personality and talent, I’m inclined to want him to be in Rochester. He seems to be mentally tough and I think the positive presence of Pekar and Rousek should not be overlooked. He’s just gotta show he’s ready to play a regular shift at that level.

[DarthEbriate]

22 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It will be interesting to see where the Sabres go with Kulich this year given his apparently advanced development status.

• Continue to play with men in the Czech league where he can challenge himself to elevate to a top 6 role and develop his body and his confidence in a comfortable social environment while postponing his cultural and small-ice adjustment.
• Dominate his peers and pile up big numbers while getting used to North American culture and rinks in the Q.
• Risk being over his head in the AHL while getting hands-on teaching from the Sabres staff and cultural support from the Czech mafia of Rousek and Pekar.

From what I’ve seen of Kulich’s personality and talent, I’m inclined to want him to be in Rochester. He seems to be mentally tough and I think the positive presence of Pekar and Rousek should not be overlooked. He’s just gotta show he’s ready to play a regular shift at that level.

I don't think it'll be much of a risk. He got into over 50 games (including playoffs) in the Czechia league last year. He needs to work on his core and leg strength like any young prospect and I'm sure we'll see plenty of tumbling to the ice in the board battles... but he'll be able to be a 4th liner in the AHL this year. Get him over and acclimated to the pace and ice size. As a sweetener, maybe he can get a 2-game look late in the season for an extra big paycheck.

He just has to understand he's not really sniffing the Sabres lineup until midseason callups in 2023-24 at the earliest.

[Taro T]

28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It will be interesting to see where the Sabres go with Kulich this year given his apparently advanced development status.

• Continue to play with men in the Czech league where he can challenge himself to elevate to a top 6 role and develop his body and his confidence in a comfortable social environment while postponing his cultural and small-ice adjustment.
• Dominate his peers and pile up big numbers while getting used to North American culture and rinks in the Q.
• Risk being over his head in the AHL while getting hands-on teaching from the Sabres staff and cultural support from the Czech mafia of Rousek and Pekar.

From what I’ve seen of Kulich’s personality and talent, I’m inclined to want him to be in Rochester. He seems to be mentally tough and I think the positive presence of Pekar and Rousek should not be overlooked. He’s just gotta show he’s ready to play a regular shift at that level.

Preference would be Ra-cha-cha w/ a deal worked out w/ his Czechia team that he'll be loaned there after (US) Thanksgiving if he isn't adjusting.  (Doubt it'd be needed, but having a fallback of the sort it sounds like they're planning for Rosen would be a nice safety net.)

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

I don't think it'll be much of a risk. He got into over 50 games (including playoffs) in the Czechia league last year. He needs to work on his core and leg strength like any young prospect and I'm sure we'll see plenty of tumbling to the ice in the board battles... but he'll be able to be a 4th liner in the AHL this year. Get him over and acclimated to the pace and ice size. As a sweetener, maybe he can get a 2-game look late in the season for an extra big paycheck.

He just has to understand he's not really sniffing the Sabres lineup until midseason callups in 2023-24 at the earliest.

I might take that bet. Kulich is going to be fun to watch if he is in Rochester this season. 

[French Collection]

11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Preference would be Ra-cha-cha w/ a deal worked out w/ his Czechia team that he'll be loaned there after (US) Thanksgiving if he isn't adjusting.  (Doubt it'd be needed, but having a fallback of the sort it sounds like they're planning for Rosen would be a nice safety net.)

Let Peca take him under his wing and get him to become a 200’ dynamo that can win some draws.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The kid is 18 and won’t be 19 until very end of next season.  He is also 20 lbs lighter and a year younger than Peterka was when he entered the A last season.  JJP went back to Europe following the 2020 draft.  KA has zero reason to rush Kulich. In fact, KA has every incentive to let Kulich’s contract slide once or twice to help stagger his prospects a little.

I think he sends him to the Q and sees how it goes. 

[French Collection]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The kid is 18 and won’t be 19 until very end of next season.  He is also 20 lbs lighter and a year younger than Peterka was when he entered the A last season.  JJP went back to Europe following the 2020 draft.  KA has zero reason to rush Kulich. In fact, KA has every incentive to let Kulich’s contract slide once or twice to help stagger his prospects a little.

I think he sends him to the Q and sees how it goes. 

Kulich’s Prospect tourney and main training camp will give the organization a better idea of where he is on the development scale.

This is a confident kid who thinks he can play with the big boys now. I doubt it, but if he is gung ho to compete and develop over here, put him in the AHL where he can become a rink/gym rat and work on his English with the Czech mafia.

If he goes to the Q I may have to go watch some of his games in Rouyn or Gatineau.