Rangers Re-Build Is Looking Really Good. Is The Sabres Re-Build Going As Well?

[Hawerchuk]

5 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

I'd like to know how many Vegas fans (and maybe players) who wish they would have kept Gallant.

1 fan right here. Dumb move by VGK to dump Gallant. He has charisma and can motivate players unlike stoic Pete Deboer (who has since been fired too).

[Taro T]

Just now, Hawerchuk said:

1 fan right here. Dumb move by VGK to dump Gallant. He has charisma and can motivate players unlike stoic Pete Deboer (who has since been fired too).

Gallant is definitely a players coach and one of the best.  His problem is always that he ends up being a pain in the arse to his bosses.

Hopefully, one of these times that he wears out his welcome it coincides w/ the Sabres being ready to move on from who they have.  Not wishing Granato to fail, but well over 90% of coaches end up getting fired rather than going out on their own terms.  Actually hope Granato is that rare cat.  But if Granato doesn't end up in that extremely exclusive club, would not mind at all to have Gallant following him.

[Curt]

Posted in another thread:

I really hate to sound like I’m letting Sabres off the hook, but the NYR really are not comparable because it’s NYC.  

The Rangers’ rebuild included another team’s prospect stiffing his team by refusing to play anywhere but the garden then turning into a Norris level player, another top pair defenseman forcing a trade to NY, and one of the elite offensive wingers in the league choosing to sign there.  That’s 3 of their top 6 players who they got for little to no cost because the player chose them.

Not to mention that a 4th round pick from 2014 just emerged as a Vezina goalie for them.  That had nothing to do with steps they took over the past 3-4 years to rebuild the team.

[Hawerchuk]

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Gallant is definitely a players coach and one of the best.  His problem is always that he ends up being a pain in the arse to his bosses.

I was laughing at that statement. It also happens to be true!

[matter2003]

On 6/2/2022 at 1:17 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

We actually have more scoring depth.  They only had 6 forward score 10 or more goals, lead by Kreider’s 52.  Interestingly the kids line has really stepped up for them.  

Ultimately if the rebuild is to work, we need to get goaltending.  KA can’t wait for Levi.

 

That almost has to be an outlier for him...he has been in the NHL for 9 seasons prior and never scored more than 28 goals. It is hard to believe that a player is just going to almost double their goal total and for it to be sustainable over upcoming seasons, especially as he starts getting further into his 30s. Likely just had the best season of his career and will fall back towards his mean the following seasons.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by matter2003

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

First, let's stop making assertions against arguments that weren't made (at least by me). No one is arguing that Gallant isn't a good coach. He is. The hiring of Granato to replace Krueger was not a genius move (as you describe). It was an in-house interim replacement of a coach whose team quit on him. He was hired within the season to stem the copious bleeding of a nearly dead carcass of a team. It was a temporary measure to get by for the rest of the lost season. 

As it turned out the young team responded to the Italian coach with cool blue framed glasses. The quality of play improved and the style of play became much more palatable to watch. He was hired as the HC in the offseason based on how well he worked with the roster he inherited. Every player under him, young and old, played better for him than they did under the previous coach who shackled his players. He was hired as the HC based on his performance from the previous year. 

Is Granato going to be a spectacular coach? Let's not get carried away. How many spectacular coaches are in this league? The spectacular coach in one year can become the fired coach in the next year. The crazy life cycle of a coach is unpredictable and can be quickly upended with an in-season slump. 

The overhanging question is: Will Granato be an effective coach when he is working with a more complete and mature roster? I think so but can't say for sure. That issue will be better clarified once this team gets to the point that it is playing meaningful games throughout the season. When all is said and done the issue comes down to how much talent do you have. We are not there yet. 

 

 

 

Honestly, we're not really disagreeing. The one thing missing imo is the player changes. Removing those that had to go and adding those that wanted to be here. I think that had a much bigger impact on the locker room than the coach did. The question now is can Granato create a solid system and structure that will lead to wins. Consistent wins. It's kind of a clean slate now with openings for potential leaders to take over and help the team leap forward, but it'll all fall apart quickly if we don't win. Granato's have fun and enjoy yourselves out there approach takes them so far, the next step is viewing losing as unacceptable. We shall see if he can deliver on that.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Drury didn't seem to want any part of Eichel. Drury seems to know what he is doing 

I think that's true. Drury wants players who think like Drury. Hard work, effort, leadership, definitely not Eichel. 

So if we had traded Eichel to the Rags would they have missed the playoffs and we'd be discussing the lottery protection issue on their 1st? 🙂

 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Honestly, we're not really disagreeing. The one thing missing imo is the player changes. Removing those that had to go and adding those that wanted to be here. I think that had a much bigger impact on the locker room than the coach did. The question now is can Granato create a solid system and structure that will lead to wins. Consistent wins. It's kind of a clean slate now with openings for potential leaders to take over and help the team leap forward, but it'll all fall apart quickly if we don't win. Granato's have fun and enjoy yourselves out there approach takes them so far, the next step is viewing losing as unacceptable. We shall see if he can deliver on that.

I agree with you that for the most part we are in accord. 

However, I do disagree with you on your take on Granato's approach to working with his roster and developing players. There is no doubt that he is adept at working with young player and being instrumental in their improvement.  He knows that young players will make mistakes because that is part of the learning process. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't hold them accountable when they make mistakes. And it should be noted that the veteran players played better under him than his predecessor. 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think that's true. Drury wants players who think like Drury. Hard work, effort, leadership, definitely not Eichel. 

So if we had traded Eichel to the Rags would they have missed the playoffs and we'd be discussing the lottery protection issue on their 1st? 🙂

 

Drury's team was competing for the playoffs and the Cup. There is no way that he would be foolish enough to shed good young players for an injured Jack who not only still needed surgery but also his career was in jeopardy. 

[PerreaultForever]

7 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you that for the most part we are in accord. 

However, I do disagree with you on your take on Granato's approach to working with his roster and developing players. There is no doubt that he is adept at working with young player and being instrumental in their improvement.  He knows that young players will make mistakes because that is part of the learning process. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't hold them accountable when they make mistakes. And it should be noted that the veteran players played better under him than his predecessor. 

veterans playing better that's really just Skinner and Okposo right? He definitely is better at adapting and letting players play their game. Kreuger broke Skinner by insisting on stuffing a square peg into a round hole but Skinner's still a big defensive liability and makes a lot of dumb and sometimes selfish plays. It's who he is and likely always will be. I'm not sure where the accountability will come in. It may be there. Again, we shall see. When they all talk like Cozens in interviews and when a guy who scores a hat trick in a losing game says he wasn't good enough, then I will know they are there. I hope Granato brings that and we finally have a winning season.

[Taro T]

31 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

veterans playing better that's really just Skinner and Okposo right? He definitely is better at adapting and letting players play their game. Kreuger broke Skinner by insisting on stuffing a square peg into a round hole but Skinner's still a big defensive liability and makes a lot of dumb and sometimes selfish plays. It's who he is and likely always will be. I'm not sure where the accountability will come in. It may be there. Again, we shall see. When they all talk like Cozens in interviews and when a guy who scores a hat trick in a losing game says he wasn't good enough, then I will know they are there. I hope Granato brings that and we finally have a winning season.

He's still a defensive liability, but not a huge one.  Seems you're still giving a lot of weight to the Skinner from the 1st 1/2 of the year that did things like the play that cost them OT in that 1st Loafs game.  The Skinner that was playing down the stretch w/ Tuch and Thompson was a guy this kid didn't expect to ever see.  

Really looking forward to seeing what Skinner does this season to see if he can continue to be a defensively meh player and a guy that can actually consistently make good passes to teammates.  He was never that player before.  Hoping he can keep being that guy.  And mildly confident he will.

[sabresparaavida]

51 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

veterans playing better that's really just Skinner and Okposo right? He definitely is better at adapting and letting players play their game. Kreuger broke Skinner by insisting on stuffing a square peg into a round hole but Skinner's still a big defensive liability and makes a lot of dumb and sometimes selfish plays. It's who he is and likely always will be. I'm not sure where the accountability will come in. It may be there. Again, we shall see. When they all talk like Cozens in interviews and when a guy who scores a hat trick in a losing game says he wasn't good enough, then I will know they are there. I hope Granato brings that and we finally have a winning season.

Throw Tuch on that list as well, he had the highest PPG of his career. Girgs also had a higher points per game than he has had since the  2014-2015 season where he was playing 1st line. The only other forwards I would consider true vets in last years lineup  were Hinostroza and Eakin, the former had a comparable year to his best ppg, and the other is well, Eakin.

[Taro T]

21 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

Throw Tuch on that list as well, he had the highest PPG of his career. Girgs also had a higher points per game than he has had since the  2014-2015 season where he was playing 1st line. The only other forwards I would consider true vets in last years lineup  were Hinostroza and Eakin, the former had a comparable year to his best ppg, and the other is well, Eakin.

Pysyk played well last season & Hagg was more often than not an actual NHL caliber D-man in the 1st 1/2 of the season, too.  Not sure that either was at the best production of his career, but both played better than expected.

[Doohicksie]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Skinner's still a big defensive liability and makes a lot of dumb and sometimes selfish plays.

Aren't you getting a little tired of this narrative?

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Taro T said:

He's still a defensive liability, but not a huge one.  Seems you're still giving a lot of weight to the Skinner from the 1st 1/2 of the year that did things like the play that cost them OT in that 1st Loafs game.  The Skinner that was playing down the stretch w/ Tuch and Thompson was a guy this kid didn't expect to ever see.  

Really looking forward to seeing what Skinner does this season to see if he can continue to be a defensively meh player and a guy that can actually consistently make good passes to teammates.  He was never that player before.  Hoping he can keep being that guy.  And mildly confident he will.

No, to the bold, I'm not. My comment was based on his play this season. That line scored a lot of goals for us but they were not a good line defensively. Skinner attacked the net better and shot the puck better, and the other two guys cleared some more space for him and Granato even found him a PP role which in the past has eluded him due to a lack of discipline and poor passing/decision making but he still got caught out of position a lot, back checked poorly, and made some bad decisions, especially in his own end and away from the puck.

Skinner was much better obviously and was the Skinner we can hope for, but he's a one way player.

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

Throw Tuch on that list as well, he had the highest PPG of his career. Girgs also had a higher points per game than he has had since the  2014-2015 season where he was playing 1st line. The only other forwards I would consider true vets in last years lineup  were Hinostroza and Eakin, the former had a comparable year to his best ppg, and the other is well, Eakin.

But to the point of discussion, I'm not crediting Granato with Tuch's play, I'm going to credit that to him playing for his hometown blue and gold and wanting to rise to that challenge and responsibility. I don't think it took much coaching to get him to give his all. (and that's why I want him as captain next year as well). 

I'm not even going to credit Granato with the one big genius move of the year, Thompson at center. Maybe it's Don's genius, but I think it more likely he lucked out after just making the move out of a try anything approach due to a lack of centers at the start of the year. I will be happy to be wrong, and if he's out there, psst, try the reverse idea, Cozens at wing. 

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Aren't you getting a little tired of this narrative?

Not a narrative, just a fact. See posts above. Look at his stats. 

[Cage]

On 6/2/2022 at 3:07 PM, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Maybe the Rangers' success will force GMKA to value goaltending more -- preferably like I do.

I'm not sure that's the right way to put it.  The Sabres results from last season new compel GMKA to focus on goaltending more

If you think back to last off-season, the Sabres were expected to be a last place dumpster-fire.  He didn't know what he had as he was focused on trading out talent that "didn't want to be here".  He did try to resign Ullmark and the goalie market just wasn't there to find the right guy other than one-year rentals.   The season was an over-the-top surprise to everyone as there was little expectation that the line-up and players would come together and mature the way they did.  Who in the world had Tage pegged as our #1 Center with nearly 40 goals?  Plus the ascendance of too many players to name, plus players excelling on Amerks and ready to coming up.

Now that he sees what he's working with, I'm sure he'll find a suitable G

 

[sabresparaavida]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

But to the point of discussion, I'm not crediting Granato with Tuch's play, I'm going to credit that to him playing for his hometown blue and gold and wanting to rise to that challenge and responsibility. I don't think it took much coaching to get him to give his all. (and that's why I want him as captain next year as well). 

I'm not even going to credit Granato with the one big genius move of the year, Thompson at center. Maybe it's Don's genius, but I think it more likely he lucked out after just making the move out of a try anything approach due to a lack of centers at the start of the year. I will be happy to be wrong, and if he's out there, psst, try the reverse idea, Cozens at wing. 

Not a narrative, just a fact. See posts above. Look at his stats. 

Even if it was from a try-anything approach, no other coaches in the NHL decided to try Tage at center, so I think he does get some credit. 
Tuch is also a heart player, I don’t think he didn’t give it his all in Vegas, and that was on a better team, yet he had his best year yet this year. To not credit Granato at all is silly. 
 

when you say the only vets that did better under Granato are Okposo and Skinner, then are given more and reject them because they don’t fit with your theory, it doesn’t exactly look good.

While Oloffson also being better isn’t backed up as much by stats, I think he played better under Granato as well (when not playing injured). If you were take out the 30 game stretch where he couldn’t shoot and therefore couldn’t score, he had 20 goals in 32 games.

[LGR4GM]

38 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

Even if it was from a try-anything approach, no other coaches in the NHL decided to try Tage at center, so I think he does get some credit. 
Tuch is also a heart player, I don’t think he didn’t give it his all in Vegas, and that was on a better team, yet he had his best year yet this year. To not credit Granato at all is silly. 
 

when you say the only vets that did better under Granato are Okposo and Skinner, then are given more and reject them because they don’t fit with your theory, it doesn’t exactly look good.

While Oloffson also being better isn’t backed up as much by stats, I think he played better under Granato as well (when not playing injured). If you were take out the 30 game stretch where he couldn’t shoot and therefore couldn’t score, he had 20 goals in 32 games.

His theory doesn't look good you're right. It's basically everything else impacted stuff except Granato. 

Entire team improved under Granato, because he's a good coach. 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

Even if it was from a try-anything approach, no other coaches in the NHL decided to try Tage at center, so I think he does get some credit. 
Tuch is also a heart player, I don’t think he didn’t give it his all in Vegas, and that was on a better team, yet he had his best year yet this year. To not credit Granato at all is silly. 
 

when you say the only vets that did better under Granato are Okposo and Skinner, then are given more and reject them because they don’t fit with your theory, it doesn’t exactly look good.

While Oloffson also being better isn’t backed up as much by stats, I think he played better under Granato as well (when not playing injured). If you were take out the 30 game stretch where he couldn’t shoot and therefore couldn’t score, he had 20 goals in 32 games.

Thompson to center is something not even Tage saw coming, so it is 100% Granato's idea.  But, he had had him play center before with the NDT, so it isn't from quite as far out in left field as it might appear at 1st blush.

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Thompson to center is something not even Tage saw coming, so it is 100% Granato's idea.  But, he had had him play center before with the NDT, so it isn't from quite as far out in left field as it might appear at 1st blush.

Granato has played centers such as Krebs, Mitts and Cozens on the wing. He has also taken the same players and played them at center. It goes to the point that you are making about Granato in that he is flexible and willing to experiment in trying to get the best out of players. He is open-minded and not limited by rigid thinking. He's the antithesis of Krueger.  

[bob_sauve28]

That Fox is just such an awesome player. If we have two players on our blue line that are anywhere near that good, I like our chances of being really good for awhile. 

[dudacek]

Just now, bob_sauve28 said:

That Fox is just such an awesome player. If we have two players on our blue line that are anywhere near that good, I like our chances of being really good for awhile. 

Pulling a guy like that outside the top of the 1st round is such a game-changer.

Kucherov and Point, Bergeron and Marchand…

[JohnC]

12 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Aren't you getting a little tired of this narrative?

All the weak segments in Skinner's game that are often cited such as passing, defense and disconnected play with his line were noticeably improved last year. Skinner is never going to be known as a defensive stalwart, but the effort was always there. He made a countless number of exceptional passes to set up his linemates. Sometimes he was too unselfish in trying to set up his mates. If he comes close to duplicating what he did for us last season in the upcoming season, he will be again one of our most valuable players on the team. He may not live up to being a $9 M per year player but last year he was a $7-7.5 player. I'll gladly take it! 

[Marvin]

8 hours ago, Cage said:

I'm not sure that's the right way to put it.  The Sabres results from last season new compel GMKA to focus on goaltending more

If you think back to last off-season, the Sabres were expected to be a last place dumpster-fire.  He didn't know what he had as he was focused on trading out talent that "didn't want to be here".  He did try to resign Ullmark and the goalie market just wasn't there to find the right guy other than one-year rentals.   The season was an over-the-top surprise to everyone as there was little expectation that the line-up and players would come together and mature the way they did.  Who in the world had Tage pegged as our #1 Center with nearly 40 goals?  Plus the ascendance of too many players to name, plus players excelling on Amerks and ready to coming up.

Now that he sees what he's working with, I'm sure he'll find a suitable G

 

Welcome back!

You need to know that I have a troubling theory that GMKA does not value having a clear #1 goaltender as much as most do -- especially me -- because he was on the Carolina team which won a Cup with rotating goaltenders.  For instance, I personally have signed Ullmark when Kevin Adams first became GM to stabilise goalkeeping in the short term.  For another, I would have paid the higher prices for goaltenders during the COVID season.

I personally fear GMKA will go dumpster diving for goaltenders again and that he over-values UPL.  I would have tried to find the good, reliable, medium term goaltender before last season.  All 6 of the goalkeepers we had would have been fine as back-ups or in an emergency, but none should have been #1.  (Aside: I think Houser deserves a better shot to climb the ladder if injuries strike.)

Don't get me wrong: I can see what people like about UPL and Subban.  But I would want someone coming in over them next season who is a clear #1.