KBC Renovation...all quiet?

[Porous Five Hole]

12 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

There wasn't anything wrong with the stadium and there isn't anything wrong with the arena that some modest owner funded improvements wouldn't fix.

While you’re being cheeky, I agree with this. Erie County should make modest improvements to their building.  

[mjd1001]

13 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

But we want cheap tickets and concessions and the owner to pay for all upgrades. And don't cheap out on players, coaches and facilities.

I'm willing to pay more for tickets, more than the current prices by far, if I'm given a lot better experience like I've seen in other cities.

[PromoTheRobot]

19 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm willing to pay more for tickets, more than the current prices by far, if I'm given a lot better experience like I've seen in other cities.

Not sure if that's true for the entire fan base. Shiny new things get old quickly. 

I live near Boston and go to TD Garden a lot. Lovely building with lots of amenities, but pretty much everything, from tickets to hot dogs, cost twice what they do in Buffalo. Of course Boston is a wealthy market full of corporations that spend on entertainment.

Buffalo wants nice, but keep it affordable. More regular fans than companies buying suites and tickets as write-offs.

[matter2003]

23 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

This needs to stop. There wasn't anything wrong with the stadium and there isn't anything wrong with the arena that some modest owner funded improvements wouldn't fix.

Have you lost your mind?  There is literally EVERYTHING wrong with the stadium(Bills) in terms of structural issues, some of which would cost tens or hundreds of mullions to properly address.  Makes no sense to try and renovate a stadium with those type of structural issues that are going to cost 2/3 as much as a new stadium would be.

Edited April 20, 2022 by matter2003

[Stoner]

2 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Have you lost your mind?  There is literally EVERYTHING wrong with the stadium(Bills) in terms of structural issues, some of which would cost tens or hundreds of mullions to properly address.  Makes no sense to try and renovate a stadium with those type of structural issues that are going to cost 2/3 as much as a new stadium would be.

I was there in tropical force winds on 12/6. It was fine.

Seriously... OK I will adhere to my policy of being concerned only with the Sabres. The arena truly is fine.

Really wish I was a structural engineer like so many of you.

Edited April 20, 2022 by PASabreFan

[matter2003]

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

I was there on tropical force winds on 12/2. It was fine.

Seriously... OK I will adhere to my policy of being concerned only with the Sabres. The arena truly is fine.

Really wish I was a structural engineer like so many of you.

I'm not a structural engineer but the report the Bills paid for by actual structural engineers was released and is freely available to the public.  They basically would have to rip out the entire upper half of the stadium, rebuild the foundation it sits on and then build it back as the supports it is sitting on starting to crumble. also have leaks throughout the stadium that are causing more structural damage as time goes on that are not easy or inexpensive to fix.  

Perhaps you should go read the report(like I did) instead of spitballing your uneducated opinion about the issues the stadium is facing.

[Stoner]

5 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I'm not a structural engineer but the report the Bills paid for by actual structural engineers was released and is freely available to the public.  They basically would have to rip out the entire upper half of the stadium, rebuild the foundation it sits on and then build it back as the supports it is sitting on starting to crumble. also have leaks throughout the stadium that are causing more structural damage as time goes on that are not easy or inexpensive to fix.  

Perhaps you should go read the report(like I did) instead of spitballing your uneducated opinion about the issues the stadium is facing.

What fun would that be?

The Bills paid for it eh?

@nfreeman is with me. That's all I care about.

[nfreeman]

33 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

What fun would that be?

The Bills paid for it eh?

@nfreeman is with me. That's all I care about.

Until the very end.  Until they pry the keyboard from my cold, dead fingers.

 

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Have you lost your mind?  There is literally EVERYTHING wrong with the stadium(Bills) in terms of structural issues, some of which would cost tens or hundreds of mullions to properly address.  Makes no sense to try and renovate a stadium with those type of structural issues that are going to cost 2/3 as much as a new stadium would be.

 

40 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I'm not a structural engineer but the report the Bills paid for by actual structural engineers was released and is freely available to the public.  They basically would have to rip out the entire upper half of the stadium, rebuild the foundation it sits on and then build it back as the supports it is sitting on starting to crumble. also have leaks throughout the stadium that are causing more structural damage as time goes on that are not easy or inexpensive to fix.  

Perhaps you should go read the report(like I did) instead of spitballing your uneducated opinion about the issues the stadium is facing.

Both of these are obnoxious.

As for the substance:  is the actual engineering report available anywhere?  I was only able to find this, which was commissioned by the NYS ESD:  https://esd.ny.gov/sites/default/files/news-articles/ESD-Bills-Stadium-Analysis-Summary-FINAL-11-1-21.pdf

It isn't an engineering report, but rather an overall assessment of refurbishment costs vs costs of a new stadium.  There is almost no detail about deterioration/structural integrity of the upper deck.  Frankly, @Contempt's analysis upthread was better.

OTOH, it looks like Erie County commissioned a separate engineering study, which found that repairing the upper deck was feasible and would cost much less than the ESD's report indicated.  However, in a classic bit of NYS corruption, that report is only available in a heavily redacted form -- here:  https://www.investigativepost.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Didonato-Stadium-report-redacted-11_05_21.pdf

For those who are interested, here is an article analyzing the situation in detail: https://www.investigativepost.org/2022/03/30/stadium-rehab-costs-lower-than-advertised/
 

Quote

 

A second study of stadium conditions, commissioned by Erie County, was conducted last year by DiDonato Associates. That study said the stadium “remains in overall fair to good condition.” It recommended $43.9 million in work: $27.2 million to the stadium itself, the balance going towards ancillary work including the Bills practice dome.

County officials refused to answer questions about their study until after Investigative Post published this story Thursday. They then issued a statement saying that their study was focused on work necessary for the next five years, not a full renovation considered in the state study.

“The costs to renovate the stadium and bring it up to current league standards is a lot different than maintaining status quo,” according to a statement from the county executive’s office.

...

Investigative Post retained John Schenne, a licensed engineer, to review the county and state studies. His take:

“Before anyone can say one set of estimates is right and one set of estimates is wrong, I think somebody’s got to dig into how those numbers were determined and get a complete accounting of how the higher numbers were generated.”

State and county officials have gone out of their way to thwart such an accounting. 

Gov. Kathy Hochul’s office refused to comment, instead issuing a brief statement that disputed our findings.

“A replacement is the right choice from a fiscal and fan experience perspective,” according to the statement.

...

 

Quote

 

Erie County has gone to great lengths to suppress the study it commissioned of stadium conditions. 

The initial analysis was completed in May 2021 and updated in November. Investigative Post requested a copy on Sept. 27 under the state Freedom of Information Law. In response, the county provided a heavily redacted version.

The county argued that releasing the report in full “could endanger the life or safety of any person who enters the stadium.” The county also claimed releasing the study would “most certainly impair an imminent contract award” involving negotiations for a new Bills stadium.

...

Investigative Post subsequently requested an interview with Poloncarz, but a spokesman said the county executive “has nothing left to say about the old stadium.”

...

The state consultant’s recommendations are based on a tour of the stadium last August with Bills representatives and a review of “previous stadium condition analyses” that were not identified in the study. The report also noted that the firm did not conduct any “independent stadium condition assessment” and “relied solely on the work conducted by others.”

 

 

I'll say it again:  WNY needed a new stadium to keep the Bills.  But it's not about structural issues at the Ralph.  It's all about the Benjamins.  And since the decision-makers have zero incentive not to spend other people's money, it's going to happen.

 

 

[Stoner]

I don't know how I did it, but I'm a MFP!

Narrator: He knows how he did it. His great grandson taught him to Venmo.

[matter2003]

23 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Until the very end.  Until they pry the keyboard from my cold, dead fingers.

 

 

Both of these are obnoxious.

As for the substance:  is the actual engineering report available anywhere?  I was only able to find this, which was commissioned by the NYS ESD:  https://esd.ny.gov/sites/default/files/news-articles/ESD-Bills-Stadium-Analysis-Summary-FINAL-11-1-21.pdf

It isn't an engineering report, but rather an overall assessment of refurbishment costs vs costs of a new stadium.  There is almost no detail about deterioration/structural integrity of the upper deck.  Frankly, @Contempt's analysis upthread was better.

OTOH, it looks like Erie County commissioned a separate engineering study, which found that repairing the upper deck was feasible and would cost much less than the ESD's report indicated.  However, in a classic bit of NYS corruption, that report is only available in a heavily redacted form -- here:  https://www.investigativepost.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Didonato-Stadium-report-redacted-11_05_21.pdf

For those who are interested, here is an article analyzing the situation in detail: https://www.investigativepost.org/2022/03/30/stadium-rehab-costs-lower-than-advertised/
 

 

 

I'll say it again:  WNY needed a new stadium to keep the Bills.  But it's not about structural issues at the Ralph.  It's all about the Benjamins.  And since the decision-makers have zero incentive not to spend other people's money, it's going to happen.

 

 

The county only looked for costs over the next 5 years and it did not include replacement of the upper deck due to structural issues. If you think they are doing that for a small amount of money as they are saying then I've got a bridge to sell you.

[Eleven]

6 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

What fun would that be?

The Bills paid for it eh?

@nfreeman is with me. That's all I care about.

You live in Pennsylvania.  Why do you care what we are spending our tax dollars on?  Do we tell you what Pennsylvania should do?  And more to the point, if you think the arena doesn’t need a makeover—not cosmetic surgery but a makeover—you just might qualify to be an NHL ref.

[Stoner]

4 hours ago, Eleven said:

You live in Pennsylvania.  Why do you care what we are spending our tax dollars on?  Do we tell you what Pennsylvania should do?  And more to the point, if you think the arena doesn’t need a makeover—not cosmetic surgery but a makeover—you just might qualify to be an NHL ref.

Sorry, I don't see it (I also missed the slash behind the play). I'll be back next Friday. Give me some things to look for.

I'm very basic and a touch anti-social. I like the Sabres Store. The atrium is nice. I get through the ticket gate and go up the escalator and am in my seat in four minutes flat. Same with egress. I sit in my seat and stare at the ice. I don't eat or drink. See also: doubled Depends.

I'm not sure what I'm missing.

Edited April 21, 2022 by PASabreFan

[ubkev]

44 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Sorry, I don't see it (I also missed the slash behind the play). I'll be back next Friday. Give me some things to look for.

I'm very basic and a touch anti-social. I like the Sabres Store. The atrium is nice. I get through the ticket gate and go up the escalator and am in my seat in four minutes flat. Same with egress. I sit in my seat and stare at the ice. I don't eat or drink. See also: doubled Depends.

I'm not sure what I'm missing.

Man, at least tell me that you yell out "SHOOOOT!!!" on the power play.

[Stoner]

7 hours ago, ubkev said:

Man, at least tell me that you yell out "SHOOOOT!!!" on the power play.

No. PAAAAAASSS! @shrader

[LGR4GM]

 

[Pimlach]

I just can’t help feeling that Buffalo missed another great opportunity when they decided to build the new stadium in OP rather than a multipurpose dome downtown.  
 

As for the KBC, it definitely needs renovation and refresh.

I never liked the place, even when new. The seats are far away from the ice and the place lacks intimacy. I usually sit in the 200’s and I was shocked at the lack of leg and foot room in the 300’s.  I don’t have long legs but I have size 12 feet and had no room up there.  It’s not an impressive place at all. 

[LGR4GM]

49 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I just can’t help feeling that Buffalo missed another great opportunity when they decided to build the new stadium in OP rather than a multipurpose dome downtown.  
 

As for the KBC, it definitely needs renovation and refresh.

I never liked the place, even when new. The seats are far away from the ice and the place lacks intimacy. I usually sit in the 200’s and I was shocked at the lack of leg and foot room in the 300’s.  I don’t have long legs but I have size 12 feet and had no room up there.  It’s not an impressive place at all. 

You have an extra 1.4 billion and an extra 4 years laying around? Cuz that's the cost and time delay for dt and dome

[grinreaper]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

I just can’t help feeling that Buffalo missed another great opportunity when they decided to build the new stadium in OP rather than a multipurpose dome downtown.  
 

As for the KBC, it definitely needs renovation and refresh.

I never liked the place, even when new. The seats are far away from the ice and the place lacks intimacy. I usually sit in the 200’s and I was shocked at the lack of leg and foot room in the 300’s.  I don’t have long legs but I have size 12 feet and had no room up there.  It’s not an impressive place at all. 

Seems like you are posting at the wrong kind of site. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

You have an extra 1.4 billion and an extra 4 years laying around? Cuz that's the cost and time delay for dt and dome

No, no extra cash.   I am going to keep my $1.4B all for myself.  

[Pimlach]

36 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

Seems like you are posting at the wrong kind of site. 

Ha ha.   You guys are funny sometimes.