Is Tage Thompson better than Jack Eichel?

[JohnC]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I’m going to channel @Thorny again here and point out that this is both a convenient whitewash of Adams first year as GM and misreprentation of Tim Murray, who both had a plan and stuck with it using both barrels. Not sure “deviation” applies to Botterill either, partly because I”m not sure he had a plan to deviate from, and partly because he seemed entirely content to move forward every year through low/risk low reward moves believing success was somehow inevitable.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. KA did have a plan when he first got the job. But the problem is that the owner did not agree to it. Eventually the owner did. 

[JohnC]

25 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

In my personal fantasy brain, the current state of the Sabres is the result of a coup by the Deep State for the good of the team.  Kevyn Adams conspired with Donny Meatballs to overthrow the existing GM-HC hierarchy and seized control right under the nose of the Pegulas.

Too much conspiracy thinking for my taste. You are starting to frighten me. 

[nfreeman]

Eichel is a better passer and playmaker, and better carrying the puck at speed.

TT has a better slapper and wrister and FWIW is better in the shootout.

TT is almost certainly a better team guy.

Eichel may or may not be faster than TT.  TT’s long stride makes him deceptively quite fast.

When Eichel was at his pre-Covid peak he was a freaking monster.  TT hasn’t shown that level yet and probably doesn’t have it in him (because very few do).  OTOH, Eichel only showed it for 10%-15% of his career and may or may not get it back.

 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I'm not sure what you are getting at. KA did have a plan when he first got the job. But the problem is that the owner did not agree to it. Eventually the owner did. 

I understand it’s a popular point of view around here, but it is backed up by what evidence?

We can only judge a GM by the moves he makes.

[Curt]

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I understand it’s a popular point of view around here, but it is backed up by what evidence?

We can only judge a GM by the moves he makes.

True.  I like Adams, and maybe he would have liked to start a rebuild immediately upon taking over, but his first season, they were definitely trying to win.  They finished dead last instead.  We can suspect that Krueger and/or Pegula influenced a lot of things that season, but as GM, Adams has to own that, at least in large part.

[sabresouth]

TNT is better than Jack was tonight. Granted Jack is coming off a long injury break. But I am well satisfied with Tage.

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, sabresouth said:

TNT is better than Jack was tonight. Granted Jack is coming off a long injury break. But I am well satisfied with Tage.

Jack has played 28 games. When does his break end?

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, SDS said:

Jack has played 28 games. When does his break end?

Next season honestly. I'd give him a full offseason of rehab and training. 

[Huckleberry]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

Both of us are agreeing that both parties in this divorce wanted a separation from each other. There was no secret on what each's preference was. When KA assumed the GM position, he wanted to enact a major overhaul of the roster that involved jettisoning the former core that included Jack, Reinhart and Risto. Each of these three made it known to the organization that they wanted out. It was not a secret that both Risto and Reinhart were not going to re-sign when their contracts expired. However, as you pointed out the owner was not on board to that dramatic remake of the roster at that time. 

 

I never get that he didn't want to be here, pretty sure he would have signed a long term deal in the years before if it was offered to him.   That he got to last year with RFA status was management fault.   Now he has a 3 year deal and if he keeps playing like this still has a 7x9 deal on the table with any team in this league after that.

[JohnC]

48 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I never get that he didn't want to be here, pretty sure he would have signed a long term deal in the years before if it was offered to him.   That he got to last year with RFA status was management fault.   Now he has a 3 year deal and if he keeps playing like this still has a 7x9 deal on the table with any team in this league after that.

You are correct that Reinhart would have signed a long-term deal years before if it were offered to him. He said so. But in typical fashion the organization blundered by not offering/signing him to a long term deal when it had an opportunity to do so. After that, when his contract was running out he made it known that he when he got to his UFA status he was going seek other opportunities. When an organization consistently makes bad judgments they predictably lose more than they win.  

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

I understand it’s a popular point of view around here, but it is backed up by what evidence?

We can only judge a GM by the moves he makes.

 

8 hours ago, Curt said:

True.  I like Adams, and maybe he would have liked to start a rebuild immediately upon taking over, but his first season, they were definitely trying to win.  They finished dead last instead.  We can suspect that Krueger and/or Pegula influenced a lot of things that season, but as GM, Adams has to own that, at least in large part.

I simply have a different take on KA's first year. KA was not part of the hockey operations when he was hired to be the GM to replace the fired Botterill. So, he was not entering the job as a hockey strongman who had the authority to do what he wanted to do.  I strongly believe (opinion) that Krueger and/or Pegula (as @Curt stated) were influential when KA took over as a GM in the hockey operation. If you recall this franchise was in turmoil and was not a typically run franchise. The owner was very involved in the decisions. The new GM didn't have the influence that he does have now. He had to bide his team and convince the owner to allow him to follow a rebuilding course that he was advocating for. There were also some reports (speculation) that the owner wanted Krueger to finish out the year because he was tired of paying off contracts for people who were no longer working. The team's disastrous descent gave the GM more than enough ammo to convince the owner to fire Krueger sooner rather than later. 

So I'm going to be more lenient than you are when assessing KA's performance in his first year because the situation that he took over was more convoluted and complicated than with other more normally run franchises. Again, that's my opinion. 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by JohnC

[Cascade Youth]

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 

I simply have a different take on KA's first year. KA was not part of the hockey operations when he was hired to be the GM to replace the fired Botterill. So, he was not entering the job as a hockey strongman who had the authority to do what he wanted to do.  I strongly believe (opinion) that Krueger and/or Pegula (as @Curt stated) were influential when KA took over as a GM in the hockey operation. If you recall this franchise was in turmoil and was not a typically run franchise. The owner was very involved in the decisions. The new GM didn't have the influence that he does have now. He had to bide his team and convince the owner to allow him to follow a rebuilding course that he was advocating for. There were also some reports (speculation) that the owner wanted Krueger to finish out the year because he was tired of paying off contracts for people who were no longer working. The team's disastrous descent gave the GM more than enough ammo to convince the owner to fire Krueger sooner rather than later. 

So I'm going to be more lenient than you are when assessing KA's performance in his first year because the situation that he took over was more convoluted and complicated than with other more normally run franchises. Again, that's my opinion. 

 

I do not mean to sound flippant but did KA's plan include finding an NHL-caliber goaltender?  At what stage of KA's plan implementation are we allowed to expect him to secure a real netminder?  I like KA, I like listening to him talk, I think he's probably a good dude.  But for me the inability to find a capable goalie over the past two offseason is a major checkmark in the KA "CONS" column - it is simply inexcusable (to me, at least).

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

I do not mean to sound flippant but did KA's plan include finding an NHL-caliber goaltender?  At what stage of KA's plan implementation are we allowed to expect him to secure a real netminder?  I like KA, I like listening to him talk, I think he's probably a good dude.  But for me the inability to find a capable goalie over the past two offseason is a major checkmark in the KA "CONS" column - it is simply inexcusable (to me, at least).

The choo choo train that you are riding on is the same one I am riding on. I'm hoping that the goalie issue is a priority for him this offseason. 

I'm attaching a link from the Buffalo News that addresses this issue. 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/inside-the-sabres-questions-in-goal-loom-large-with-prospects-going-back-to-school/article_b2da8cc2-be58-11ec-b96b-bbf8502aa148.html

 

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

That he got to last year with RFA status was management fault.

Like I said... I think that wasn't management fault; more like it was management deliberate decision.  The rest of the organization didn't know it yet but Kevyn was already moving on.

[jad1]

14 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

We had Eichel and OReilly and they weren't that good. Eichel might not have been the problem but he was never going to be the solution either.

The problem wasn't with the players, it was with idiot GMs and coaches who couldn't build a team around those players.

Here's some perspective.  Every Sabres fan loves the season Thompson has had this year.  He's been nothing short of awesome.  He's the breakout player of the year.

Meanwhile, the Sabres are 31 points out of 4th place in the division and 27 points out of the wildcard.  Their goal differential is -59.

Nobody in their right mind would blame Thompson for the Sabres current standing or their goal differential.  Nobody would blame Thompson for the goaltending chaos or blame him for the poor play of guys like Bjork, Eakin, Butcher, Miller, etc.  

The problem with the Sabres this year isn't with Thompson, it with the fact that the team lacks overall talent.  And while nobody blames Thompson for the Sabres poor standing this year, many seem to happy to blame guys like Eichel, O'Reilly, and Reinhart for being in the same situation Thompson is today.

The song hasn't changed here.  Thompson gives th Sabres a legit, playoff caliber 1C and a leads legit first line.  The GM needs to fill the rest of the roster with talent and the coach needs to optimize that talent.  

We've had GMs and coaches who have been incapable of building teams around talented players in the past.  Hopefully, Granato and Adams can steer the franchise to better times, so we're not scape-goating Thompson two years from now.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by jad1

[CallawaySabres]

I would choose the Sabres playing Vegas in the Cup over the Bills playing Brady in the Super Bowl. That is how deep my hatred runs for Eichel. Just to get him in our building when the stakes are that high, wow, you just know he would lose his shiit. 

[TheAud]

I  just looked at Tage since Feb 1st (randomly chosen date because it was easy to get the stats and I feel like his game has really picked up since then). 

It's 34 games. In that time he has 22 goals and 12 assists. 

Projecting to 80 games (I always assume guys miss at least 2 games a season) that's 52 goals and 22 assists = 80 points. 

Probably won't happen, but if Tage puts up 50+ goals in a season I am going to call him Eichel's equal, in my mind at least.  

 

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Tage has finally gotten great confidence to utilize the tools he has always had. Is he better then Jack? Uhhhh no. Jack can be a 100 pt player, Tage cannot. Although, that could change next year, but as of now, Tage is better, but he is not better then Jack. I am happier to have a good Tage though then an immature whiney Jack who cannot lead and pouts when things do not go his way. 

[sabresouth]

11 hours ago, SDS said:

Jack has played 28 games. When does his break end?

Good point. I didn't realize he had played that many games.

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Like I said... I think that wasn't management fault; more like it was management deliberate decision.  The rest of the organization didn't know it yet but Kevyn was already moving on.

It was Botterill that had the opportunity.  

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, Sakman said:

I  just looked at Tage since Feb 1st (randomly chosen date because it was easy to get the stats and I feel like his game has really picked up since then). 

It's 34 games. In that time he has 22 goals and 12 assists. 

Projecting to 80 games (I always assume guys miss at least 2 games a season) that's 52 goals and 22 assists = 80 points. 

Probably won't happen, but if Tage puts up 50+ goals in a season I am going to call him Eichel's equal, in my mind at least.  

 

43 in his past 42. The sample size continues to grow.

Obviously there’s a “do it again” element, but It is interesting that the above pace is pretty much spot-on what Eichel gives you. Eichel has been roughly a point a game 4 of his 7 seasons, above once and below twice.

[Carmel Corn]

Something that will be interesting to see in coming seasons is the health factor.  I've felt that Jack was somewhat injury prone in the past, but I've also thought similarly about Tage.  With Jack, I feel he played a lot of games injured and his effectiveness was compromised.  Fast forward to this current season and Tage has been pretty durable this year.  If this is not a fluke and his move to center enables him to stay more healthy, then that could be an unexpected benefit to the team. 

[Doohicksie]

6 hours ago, jad1 said:

The problem with the Sabres this year isn't with Thompson, it with the fact that the team lacks overall talent.

I would even argue with that.  What the team lacked this season was stable goaltending and roster, and a coming in, a fully developed system and culture.  This team was not ready to compete in October, even with a healthy Anderson, Mitts, etc.  They just weren't there yet.  They're much closer now:  They haven't arrived quite yet, but the train is pulling up to the station.

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

It was Botterill that had the opportunity.  

They both did.  JBot signed Reino to a "prove it" two-year bridge deal.  When that expired Adams signed him to a one year deal following arbitration.  If Kevyn wanted him he could have signed him for longer term and if Sam required it, possibly higher AAV.

[inkman]

On 4/18/2022 at 8:03 AM, LGR4GM said:

Discuss

 

Not that I would expect anything less but thank you for “than”.  The amount of people who continuously get it wrong is beyond infuriating. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by inkman