Offseason Gameplan 2022 - Solving the goaltending system wide.

[steveoath]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So many people talking about Hellebuyk is there even a rumour that he's on the trade block? I think he has a partial no trade clause too but not sure. Can't see that one happening imo unless we give away way too much.

I am merely speculating that he's available. Seemed like a reasonable bridge until Levi comes up. And then hopefully have Hellebuyck/Levi for a few years if he stays. But he would help push the group towards the playoffs next year and I don't think that can be overvalued.

According to dadonovfriendly CH does not have any clauses in his contract.

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

@JohnC let me simplify this. You believe that Ullmark represents a solution to our goaltending problem. I don't think Ullmark represents a solution to our goaltending problem. That's basically what all this boils down to. 

You don't understand my stance. Ullmark is not an end-all solution to our goaltending problem. He was our best option that we had. The GM had an UFA goalie on the premises. He let the player go when he had no solid backup plan for a possible departure. Now this franchise is trying to address a problem of its own making. Poor foresight and judgment by the front office. I hope this clarifies the matter for you. There is a saying that is apt here: Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.   

[Norcal]

1 hour ago, Carmel Corn said:

I find it kind of interesting to see that older netminders are still so common in the league today.  Just looking at goalies who have played at least 23 games, the list of age 30+ looks something like below.  We already have 2 of them, but wonder if there is anybody of quality in their early 30's to target for a couple years (ex. Kuemper)?

 Name    Team    Age
Craig Anderson    BUF    40
Mike Smith    EDM    39
Marc-Andre Fleury    MIN    37
Jonathan Quick    LAK    35
Thomas Greiss    DET    35
Cameron Talbot    MIN    34
Sergei Bobrovsky    FLA    33
James Reimer    SJS    33
Mikko Koskinen    EDM    33
Semyon Varlamov    NYI    33
Frederik Andersen    CAR    32
Dustin Tokarski    BUF    32
Braden Holtby    DAL    32
Jacob Markström    CGY    31
Darcy Kuemper    COL    31
Jake Allen    MTL    31
Martin Jones    PHI    31
Philipp Grubauer    SEA    30
Robin Lehner    VGK    30

I see plenty of reasonable options there.

Goaltenders can get their ***** together sometimes and have careers turn around. 

Most of these guys have had a modicum of success atleast and could yet go on a good run. 

The new analytics crew is hopefully hard at work determining who, if any, deserve another shot at being the man for a couple/few years. 

They need to be thinking outside the box too.

Bring in multiple guys to fill out the echl and ahl teams as well.

*****, sign Subban if you have to, for Rochester.

 

[Marvin]

28 minutes ago, steveoath said:

I am merely speculating that he's available. Seemed like a reasonable bridge until Levi comes up. And then hopefully have Hellebuyck/Levi for a few years if he stays. But he would help push the group towards the playoffs next year and I don't think that can be overvalued.

According to dadonovfriendly CH does not have any clauses in his contract.

We need @Ducky to help out.  Is Winnipeg looking to make a partial rebuild?  That is the only way I can see when they would make Hellebuck available.  We would have make it worth their while in any event.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

None of these are goalies. It is really telling when you can't argue against what I have shown on Gibson but have to resort to whatbout this other non-related player as the counter. John Gibson isn't good and this is the 2nd offseason of ppl claiming he will magically get better. Any improvement to Gibson will be incremental and hinge more on the defense than his abilities at this point. 

Your position seems to be John Gibson was mediocre at 26, 27, and 28 therefore he will not get better.

My position is John Gibson was outstanding from the time he was 18 until he was 25, goalies generally perform well into their 30s, therefore there is reason to think he can bounce back.

I’m not trying to change your mind.

 

 

 

[Norcal]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

We need @Ducky to help out.  Is Winnipeg looking to make a partial rebuild?  That is the only way I can see when they would make Hellebuck available.  We would have make it worth their while in any event.

They seem headed for that imo.

Maybe they'll trade Helle for the rights to Portillo a late 1st and 3rd? 

Do they have another guy?

Sigh, a man can dream

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You don't understand my stance. Ullmark is not an end-all solution to our goaltending problem. He was our best option that we had. The GM had an UFA goalie on the premises. He let the player go when he had no solid backup plan for a possible departure. Now this franchise is trying to address a problem of its own making. Poor foresight and judgment by the front office. I hope this clarifies the matter for you. There is a saying that is apt here: Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.   

I’ve been saying where was plan B in case Ullmark walked from the expansion draft forward.  We heard a ton of excuses, from we thought we made a good offer, it takes two to tango in the trade market, I didn’t want to block a prospect, I think Anderson and Dell can handle the job etc….

Honestly he has had 2+ years to fix this issue and hasn’t.  The time for excuses is over. If he comes back with a tandem of Anderson and UPL he has failed the franchise, the players and the fans.  

[Marvin]

Some outside-the-box musings for stop-gaps:

Any goalie in Europe worth looking at?

Any back-ups whom you think could be 1B in Buffalo?

Any cap-strapped teams who might make a solid goaltender available?

Any seniors in college or CHA over-agers we might get for Rochester or Cincinnati?

Should we consider Rochester and Buffalo as having a pool of 4 guys who could play up here and shuffle around?

Who needs to be resigned and when -- and how does that affect ability to sign someone for short term to a sky-high price?

Could someone provide save percentage, xGA, and other stats for the UFAs mentioned earlier?

[Norcal]

16 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Some outside-the-box musings for stop-gaps:

Any goalie in Europe worth looking at?

Any back-ups whom you think could be 1B in Buffalo?

Any cap-strapped teams who might make a solid goaltender available?

Any seniors in college or CHA over-agers we might get for Rochester or Cincinnati?

Should we consider Rochester and Buffalo as having a pool of 4 guys who could play up here and shuffle around?

Who needs to be resigned and when -- and how does that affect ability to sign someone for short term to a sky-high price?

Could someone provide save percentage, xGA, and other stats for the UFAs mentioned earlier?

I do wonder to what level the analytics team is working on the goaltending issue? 

They would have any and all information they need to make some informed acquisitions.

Most of the top SHL and KHL guys are in their mid 20s and have either played there the whole time or returned after college or failed N. American careers.

Jonas Enroth led the league in save % and Linus Omark was 3rd in points so....

Dryden McKay won the Hobey Baker with 37 wins and was the runner up for the national title but I have a feeling he might flame out of the NHL. 

Would Minnesota trade Wallstedt for one of the Sabres prospects or some combo of players and picks? 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Norcal

[LGR4GM]

57 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You don't understand my stance. Ullmark is not an end-all solution to our goaltending problem. He was our best option that we had. The GM had an UFA goalie on the premises. He let the player go when he had no solid backup plan for a possible departure. Now this franchise is trying to address a problem of its own making. Poor foresight and judgment by the front office. I hope this clarifies the matter for you. There is a saying that is apt here: Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.   

You don't understand my stance. This saying that you and now others are repeating I find meaningless in this context. Totally meaningless. Ullmark isn't good or better than what is sitting in Rochester. 

I'm always amused that you think you need to "clarify the matter" and "you don't understand". You repeat the same thing so often in so many threads it's quite easy to understand your stance but sadly you've failed to understand mine. 

You think Ullmark is a solution and I do not, it's that simple. I never said end all. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

38 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’ve been saying where was plan B in case Ullmark walked from the expansion draft forward.  We heard a ton of excuses, from we thought we made a good offer, it takes two to tango in the trade market, I didn’t want to block a prospect, I think Anderson and Dell can handle the job etc….

Honestly he has had 2+ years to fix this issue and hasn’t.  The time for excuses is over. If he comes back with a tandem of Anderson and UPL he has failed the franchise, the players and the fans.  

Strange you never felt like this about Botteril. 

42 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Your position seems to be John Gibson was mediocre at 26, 27, and 28 therefore he will not get better.

My position is John Gibson was outstanding from the time he was 18 until he was 25, goalies generally perform well into their 30s, therefore there is reason to think he can bounce back.

I’m not trying to change your mind.

Ik your position, I think it's wrong and I laid out why. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Strange you never felt like this about Botteril. 

Ik your position, I think it's wrong and I laid out why. 

Jbot didn’t lack for a real starter.  He had Ullmark.  He also tried (but failed) to get a solid backup in Hutton.   What’s KA truly done to help the goaltending situation? Nothing! 

From a broader perspective, my support for Jbot was his improved drafting and attempts to correct the mess created by TM.  I thought he deserved a 4th year to see if his plan would bare fruit.  TP/KP disagreed.  KA’s rebuild sits on a Jbot foundation - Cozens, Mitts, Thompson, Bryson, Skinner, Dahlin, Samuelsson and UPL.

[Carmel Corn]

19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You don't understand my stance. This saying that you and now others are repeating I find meaningless in this context. Totally meaningless. Ullmark isn't good or better than what is sitting in Rochester. 

I'm always amused that you think you need to "clarify the matter" and "you don't understand". You repeat the same thing so often in so many threads it's quite easy to understand your stance but sadly you've failed to understand mine. 

You think Ullmark is a solution and I do not, it's that simple. I never said end all. 

IMHO - Ullmark was not the long term answer for Buffalo, however he is much better than Dell.  Whether or not he is better than UPL simply remains to be seen.  

[Carmel Corn]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Jbot didn’t lack for a real starter.  He had Ullmark.  He also tried (but failed) to get a solid backup in Hutton.   What’s KA truly done to help the goaltending situation? Nothing! 

From a broader perspective, my support for Jbot was his improved drafting and attempts to correct the mess created by TM.  I thought he deserved a 4th year to see if his plan would bare fruit.  TP/KP disagreed.  KA’s rebuild sits on a Jbot foundation - Cozens, Mitts, Thompson, Bryson, Skinner, Dahlin, Samuelsson and UPL.

IMHO - I don't think JBOT was good for Buffalo.  Drafting Dahlin was a layup, who else would have picked somebody different?  He picked Cozens over Zegras, which remains to be seen as the right choice or not.  He did get Skinner, but he also hired Ralph Krueger, who destroyed Skinner.  UPL is a mixed bag, so I would not call him a foundational player.  Thompson did not thrive under JBOT as many of us here thought he was never going to pan out (I was wrong on that too).  Mitts is streaky and has yet to prove he is a top 6 player.

All in all, JBOT did nothing much better than GMKA in addressing the goaltending (so far).

[jsb]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Your opinion makes sense if you believe Gibson will never be better than he is today and is likely to get worse.

That's not my opinion.

I think he's as or more talented than the vast majority of goalies in the NHL. He is still only 28 and has plenty of life left athletically.

I agree with you and his stats have become worse since the Ducks have been playing around the Sabres level. What I don't think is true is Anaheim trading the guy away. They're not that far from us in their own rebuild, why would they give up on Gibson without a large haul back from us. And why after finally getting close to the point where we have some depth in our system do we give it all back up for 1 guy?? I don't see this happening or giving anyone 10M to come here at the end of his career. Be patient grasshoppers, our time is coming. 

[RochesterExpat]

Are there any goalies Buffalo could conceivably offer sheet on? The only one I can think of is Jake Oettinger and I suspect Dallas may not match if Buffalo did a $4m x 3 year contract. He'd expire as an RFA in Buffalo at the cost of a 2nd round draft pick in 2023. On the flip side, if Dallas matches, there's zero chance they can afford to re-sign Klingberg when they have to sign Robertson this year and Hintz next season... so maybe there's a right-shot defensman that can be picked up as a result.

Not that anyone does offer sheets because of some bs "gentleman's agreement."

Edited April 12, 2022 by RochesterExpat

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Strange you never felt like this about Botteril. 

Ik your position, I think it's wrong and I laid out why. 

And you did a poor job of it. 😜

[jsb]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

You don't understand my stance. Ullmark is not an end-all solution to our goaltending problem. He was our best option that we had. The GM had an UFA goalie on the premises. He let the player go when he had no solid backup plan for a possible departure. Now this franchise is trying to address a problem of its own making. Poor foresight and judgment by the front office. I hope this clarifies the matter for you. There is a saying that is apt here: Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.   

Yes because he had nothing else to worry about except a player and agent who apparently went back on his word and played the game of who'll give me the best offer sheet. Such as the Captain of the team starting a mutiny on the team, a majority of the veterans all wanting out, a coach that had no idea what he was doing or able to recognize the young talent he had on the team, a fanbase stopped buying season tickets and an epidemic that was changing the league and the way everyone was doing things/business. So although he changed things for the better in all of these matters except getting blindsided by a JAG GK and having to go to plan C on that, he has poor foresight and judgement?? Thank goodness I won't have you to judge me at the pearly gates. 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

We need @Ducky to help out.  Is Winnipeg looking to make a partial rebuild?  That is the only way I can see when they would make Hellebuck available.  We would have make it worth their while in any event.

Sure, send them the Florida 1st, Bjork and Miller.  

[Curt]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Your opinion makes sense if you believe Gibson will never be better than he is today and is likely to get worse.

That's not my opinion.

I think he's as or more talented than the vast majority of goalies in the NHL. He is still only 28 and has plenty of life left athletically. His past 3 years (not 5) have been  mediocre not terrible. Gibson at his worst is better than Craig Anderson is right now. The contract is meaningless to the Sabres for the next 2 years at least and really dovetails quite nicely to the time when Levi will have to get paid.

I think he's a candidate to be a legitimate #1 goalie who might be available at a buy-low price. I remember Carey Price and Fleury going through mid-career lulls when they were the subject of posts like yours and they bounced back fine. I think Gibson is in a rut and needs to be jolted out of it. I'd be betting that Donnie and the kids will invigorate him the way they've invigorated Anderson.

Yes, there is risk. But there is also potential reward, which I'm not seeing with any of the other options being discussed, with the exception of Fleury. I'm sick of stopgaps and I want someone who has the potential to be more.

The Sabres would need to do their homework on his headspace. But I bet on talent if the character is there.

Price and Fleury never went through anything like what Gibson is.  They had singular down seasons where they were average instead of excellent.  Gibson has a several year track record of decreased performance.  Maybe he can turn it around, but I’m not sure how likely it is.

[Brawndo]

2One name that is overlooked for a UPL-UFA Tandem is Casey DeSmith.
 

Jason Karmanos and Mike Bales would both have a history with Him from Pittsburgh, not advocating for Him, just that there is history there.  I think MAF is going back to the Burgh anyways. 
 

I need to see UPL behind the Sabres Defense, the Amerks have not a legitimate NHL Prospect in Their Ranks for Months, no Laakonsen doesn’t count, His GAA and SV% were much better in Nine Game NHL Stint the problem was  Sabres couldn’t score with Him in Net. 
 

The Fear with trading for Gibson is the term He has left.  That possibility puts the Sabres into an another Cal Petersen Scenario, where He looked and saw Lehner, Ullmark and Johansson blocking His Path to the NHL .  I want Levi and the long shot of Portillo to see a clear path to the starters net.  Adams has mentioned He doesn’t want to block any of the kids, so I can’t see a veteran brought in with greater than 3 years on a deal. 
 

Malcolm Subban is probably re-signed for the Amerks, as well as Houser as His Backup or Cincinnati Starter. 
Sign Strauss Mann to a ELC 

@nfreeman Vegas 1st and Portillo can seem like an overpay for Two Seasons of Hellebuyck, but if Portillo has made it clear He wants to explore all options, Hellebuyck is one of the better ones in the game, that’s worth the price 

[nucci]

Disirregardless, this team is improving and with good goaltending can make the playoffs next season

[Weave]

50 minutes ago, nucci said:

Disirregardless, this team is improving and with good goaltending can make the playoffs next season

The longer the current good play remains relatively consistent, the more confident I feel that a goalkeeper may be enough to get us in playoff contention.

[GASabresIUFAN]

15 hours ago, Brawndo said:

 

2One name that is overlooked for a UPL-UFA Tandem is Casey DeSmith.

 

I mentioned DeSmith up thread as well.  The most he’s played in an NHL season is 36 games.  He is a solid NHL goalie. Around Ullmark level.  I’d be ok with him as a bridge for a couple of years but I hope KA can find better.

[Pimlach]

16 hours ago, Brawndo said:

2One name that is overlooked for a UPL-UFA Tandem is Casey DeSmith.
 

Jason Karmanos and Mike Bales would both have a history with Him from Pittsburgh, not advocating for Him, just that there is history there.  I think MAF is going back to the Burgh anyways. 
 

I need to see UPL behind the Sabres Defense, the Amerks have not a legitimate NHL Prospect in Their Ranks for Months, no Laakonsen doesn’t count, His GAA and SV% were much better in Nine Game NHL Stint the problem was  Sabres couldn’t score with Him in Net. 
 

The Fear with trading for Gibson is the term He has left.  That possibility puts the Sabres into an another Cal Petersen Scenario, where He looked and saw Lehner, Ullmark and Johansson blocking His Path to the NHL .  I want Levi and the long shot of Portillo to see a clear path to the starters net.  Adams has mentioned He doesn’t want to block any of the kids, so I can’t see a veteran brought in with greater than 3 years on a deal. 
 

Malcolm Subban is probably re-signed for the Amerks, as well as Houser as His Backup or Cincinnati Starter. 
Sign Strauss Mann to a ELC 

@nfreeman Vegas 1st and Portillo can seem like an overpay for Two Seasons of Hellebuyck, but if Portillo has made it clear He wants to explore all options, Hellebuyck is one of the better ones in the game, that’s worth the price 

Given the Portillo status, the Vegas 1st and Portillo is like the Vegas first and nothing.   I doubt Winnipeg is going to be attractive to Portillo and they know it.  

I prefer to offer the Florida 1st and another expendable asset.  The Vegas first is going to be valuable.