Offseason Gameplan 2022 - Solving the goaltending system wide.

[GASabresIUFAN]

As of this writing, the Sabres have zero goaltenders under contract for next season. Zero!, Nada! 

College prospects Levi and Portillo are returning to school.

Anderson, Tokarski, Houser, Subban and Dell are UFAs and UPL is an RFA.

Talk about a clean slate. 

Our fearless leader, has stated that UPL’s play is better then his AHL numbers indicate.  He has also indicated that UPL is slated for a role in Buffalo net season.  There are also reports that he has discussed with Anderson returning next season.  While a nice story, I don’t want Anderson or any of the UFA goalies back next season unless they are willing to play in minors.  

Step 1 - UPL’s status - AHL or NHL?  I personally don’t think UPL is ready and he should start in Rochester hopefully behind a better group of D.  That said, If KA think’s he’s NHL ready so be it, but he better get a legit NHL starter and get someone who can step up for the Amerks.   

Step 2 - NHL starter - UFA, RFA or Trade?  From an availability point of view, there seem to be more UFA’s available then quality trade targets.  Husso, MAF, Holtby, Kuemper, Koskinen, Jones, and Korpisalo lead the UFAs with Georgiev and Samaonov the RFAs.  The veteran trade market is thin.  Most that I am interested in have trade protection like Varlomov and Quick.  Talbot is probably off the market.  How KA solves this issue may be the key to the off-season.

Step 3 - Young organizational depth.  To put it bluntly, we need to sign two kids, one each for Rochester and Cinn. Hobey winner Dryden McKay and US Olympic starter Strauss Mann would two I’d certainly call.

Step 4 - AAAA veteran.  We need an AHL/NHL veteran willing to tutor in the AHL and who can give us reasonable NHL play if called upon. We got that from Tokarski.  Would he be willing to reprise that role or will be have better options elsewhere?  

So how does KA get this done.  We have cap space to take on any UFA and the trade assets (and cap space) to make a deal if KA can find another GM to dance with.  Of course, after missing the playoffs an NHL record 11 years, can KA entice a UFA or A player with trade protection to come here?  Hopefully the availability of an NHL starting job on an up and coming team  should entice someone, but who? (Getting a proven top 4 RHD to shore up the defense would probably help in the goaltender sweepstakes).

Edited May 20, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Marvin]

FYI: Quick wants to stay in LA.    The Sabres are certainly on Varlamov's NTL.  I would prefer Dell AND Houser as our goaltending tandem over having Georgiev as our #1.  Samsonov is Tokarski behind a good team.  I can't imagine Fleury coming to Buffalo.  You would need double the salary and term that Ullmark has now in Boston to get the UFA's you listed.  Given the situations in Toronto, Edmonton, Las Vegas, etc., if I were a GM with a good goaltender to trade, Buffalo has to start with 2 of Buffalo's 1st in 2022, Power, and Dahlin plus a very good sweetener (Quinn or better) before I even consider a counter-offer.

[LGR4GM]

35 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

FYI: Quick wants to stay in LA.    The Sabres are certainly on Varlamov's NTL.  I would prefer Dell AND Houser as our goaltending tandem over having Georgiev as our #1.  Samsonov is Tokarski behind a good team.  I can't imagine Fleury coming to Buffalo.  You would need double the salary and term that Ullmark has now in Boston to get the UFA's you listed.  Given the situations in Toronto, Edmonton, Las Vegas, etc., if I were a GM with a good goaltender to trade, Buffalo has to start with 2 of Buffalo's 1st in 2022, Power, and Dahlin plus a very good sweetener (Quinn or better) before I even consider a counter-offer.

This is just nonsensical and not how these trades work or get talked about. Adams would laugh that other gm off the phone and the other 30 gms not on the call would laugh at such an ask as well. This is unrealistic doomsday types of proposal. Like this trade proposal is so outlandishly awful it deserves ridicule. 

Goaltender (supposed starter) for: 15th, 30th, Power, Dahlin (2 of these things and keep in mind the 15th overall pick is worth 100 times less than Rasmus Dahlin) and Quinn.... that's never happening. If you actually mean 2 firsts AND Power AND Dahlin AND Quinn for a goalie, LMFAO. 

In fact if an opposing GM seriously offered that, I would never trade with them again and would only call to offer them Bjork for Crosby. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by LGR4GM

[Bangarang]

8 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

FYI: Quick wants to stay in LA.    The Sabres are certainly on Varlamov's NTL.  I would prefer Dell AND Houser as our goaltending tandem over having Georgiev as our #1.  Samsonov is Tokarski behind a good team.  I can't imagine Fleury coming to Buffalo.  You would need double the salary and term that Ullmark has now in Boston to get the UFA's you listed.  Given the situations in Toronto, Edmonton, Las Vegas, etc., if I were a GM with a good goaltender to trade, Buffalo has to start with 2 of Buffalo's 1st in 2022, Power, and Dahlin plus a very good sweetener (Quinn or better) before I even consider a counter-offer.

lol that trade proposal. Any GM would laugh and fart into the phone before hanging up. 

[steveoath]

Portillo's rights and the Vegas first plus(?) For Hellebuyck? 

Edited April 11, 2022 by steveoath

[LGR4GM]

21 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

FYI: Quick wants to stay in LA.    The Sabres are certainly on Varlamov's NTL.  I would prefer Dell AND Houser as our goaltending tandem over having Georgiev as our #1.  Samsonov is Tokarski behind a good team.  I can't imagine Fleury coming to Buffalo.  You would need double the salary and term that Ullmark has now in Boston to get the UFA's you listed.  Given the situations in Toronto, Edmonton, Las Vegas, etc., if I were a GM with a good goaltender to trade, Buffalo has to start with 2 of Buffalo's 1st in 2022, Power, and Dahlin plus a very good sweetener (Quinn or better) before I even consider a counter-offer.

Ok, I'm done being snarky. 

I think these teams have cap of issues and a 2nd might get it done or a 2nd and a B level prospect

[LabattBlue]

Adams needs to fix the goaltending this summer. He has allowed the problem to fester for two seasons. A 3rd season of this crap is a fireable offense. 

[Eleven]

Marty made it sound like there are a lot of possible veteran options on the radio today.

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Marty made it sound like there are a lot of possible veteran options on the radio today.

The question is…legit vet starting goalie, or dumpster diving for a vet goalie?

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, LabattBlue said:

The question is…legit vet starting goalie, or dumpster diving for a vet goalie?

Seemed to be some of both.  I wish I had paid attention more carefully.

UPL should be ready to start if they can get the right vet backup in here.  If UPL isn't ready to start, then Adams has screwed this up even more than I had thought.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Eleven

[Radar]

25 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Adams needs to fix the goaltending this summer. He has allowed the problem to fester for two seasons. A 3rd season of this crap is a fireable offense. 

You can't magically produce a starting goalie. Who that meets that description do you have in mind. Not fantasy but realistic options. You don't fire a GM for something that's not there to begin with. Don't say we should have signed Ulmark for what Boston did please.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Radar

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This is just nonsensical and not how these trades work or get talked about. Adams would laugh that other gm off the phone and the other 30 gms not on the call would laugh at such an ask as well. This is unrealistic doomsday types of proposal. Like this trade proposal is so outlandishly awful it deserves ridicule. 

Goaltender (supposed starter) for: 15th, 30th, Power, Dahlin (2 of these things and keep in mind the 15th overall pick is worth 100 times less than Rasmus Dahlin) and Quinn.... that's ***** laughable. 

In fact if an opposing GM seriously offered that, I would never trade with them again and would only call to offer them Bjork for Crosby. 

 

Just now, Bangarang said:

lol that trade proposal. Any GM would laugh and fart into the phone before hanging up. 

If I were that GM, you laughing and hanging up would be fine with me.  In real life, I would not trade my top goaltender or potential top guy behind my current #1 unless I get a ridiculous offer or he wants out; only in the latter case would I consider a "reasonable price" -- otherwise, I want a trade that is beyond verging on extortion.  Instead, I would hope to be shrewd enough to raid some cap strapped teams, get some character depth, and hope to be next year's LA.  Besides, I saw how the Jack Eichel trade worked for Buffalo and where Buffalo would be with even mediocre goaltending all season.  Why would I trade the ultimate strength for a bunch of crapshoots and non-top-flight players?

Who will ask for goaltending?  Cup contenders with weak starters and cap problems, like LVGK, Edmonton, and Toronto.  I would ask for top-flight players at a 50% discount (Stone, Draisaitl, Matthews), top flight established defenceman at a good price, and my pick of top prospects.  From teams trying to take the next step with good youth and draft position, you saw.  Supply and demand says that asking for the Moon instead of the Oort Cloud is foolish -- I expect to settle for the Kuiper Belt.

[Flashsabre]

49 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

FYI: Quick wants to stay in LA.    The Sabres are certainly on Varlamov's NTL.  I would prefer Dell AND Houser as our goaltending tandem over having Georgiev as our #1.  Samsonov is Tokarski behind a good team.  I can't imagine Fleury coming to Buffalo.  You would need double the salary and term that Ullmark has now in Boston to get the UFA's you listed.  Given the situations in Toronto, Edmonton, Las Vegas, etc., if I were a GM with a good goaltender to trade, Buffalo has to start with 2 of Buffalo's 1st in 2022, Power, and Dahlin plus a very good sweetener (Quinn or better) before I even consider a counter-offer.

This is one of the worst takes I have read in a long time. 2 1sts, Power, Dahlin and Quinn. I wouldn’t give that up for McDavid or Matthews.

the Sabres have to spend like $20 million to get to the floor next year. Throw money at Kuemper or Husso, both near the top of the league at goals saved above replacement.

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, Radar said:

You can't magically produce a starting goalie. Who that meets that description do you have in mind. Not fantasy but realistic options. You don't fire a GM for something that's not there to begin with. Don't say we should have signed Ulmark for what Boston did please.

I have one word for this: tough.  It is absolutely a fireable offence.

Just now, Flashsabre said:

This is one of the worst takes I have read in a long time. 2 1sts, Power, Dahlin and Quinn. I wouldn’t give that up for McDavid or Matthews.

the Sabres have to spend like $20 million to get to the floor next year. Throw money at Kuemper or Husso, both near the top of the league at goals saved above replacement.

No: 2 of (Buffalo 2022 1st, Dahlin, Power) plus Quinn.  So, outrageous extortion level.

[thewookie1]

6 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I have one word for this: tough.  It is absolutely a fireable offence.

No: 2 of (Buffalo 2022 1st, Dahlin, Power) plus Quinn.  So, outrageous extortion level.

 

Lol, so in your opinion KA literally has 0 way of keeping his job barring him giving so much money or assets that it in of itself is a firable offense.

[Radar]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I have one word for this: tough.  It is absolutely a fireable offence.

Sorry. Firing someone just because "tough"? Sounds pretty harsh when can't offer any realistic options. It's easy sitting at home demanding answers from others we don't have ourselves. Tough doesn't get it done. I don't believe over KA short tenure he's had many options to dramatically improve our goaltending.

[nfreeman]

@Marvin, Sabres Fan is an excellent poster but he kinda painted himself into a corner here.

@GASabresIUFAN very nicely lays out how bare the cupboard is.  Yeeeeessshhh.

And I agree that if KA blows the goalie situation for a 3rd consecutive season it will be a huge black mark on his tenure as GM.

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

 

Lol, so in your opinion KA literally has 0 way of keeping his job barring him giving so much money or assets that it in of itself is a firable offense.

No.  I am saying that deliberately putting himself into this situation is a firable offence.  The time to start fixing this was 2020-1.  Letting this fester for 3 years and the failing to solve it is absolutely firable.  I have to see incontrovertible progress this season.  Period.

3 minutes ago, Radar said:

Sorry. Firing someone just because "tough"? Sounds pretty harsh when can't offer any realistic options. It's easy sitting at home demanding answers from others we don't have ourselves. Tough doesn't get it done. I don't believe over KA short tenure he's had many options to dramatically improve our goaltending.

Sure.

In 2020-1, start negotiations with Ullmark so that you can sign him before 2021-2.  Make that trade for the goaltender which looked expensive at the time (we know he backed out of 1 on the table when the NHL announced the 3rd G policy; there should have been a back-up which did not include keeping Carter Hutton); it will be far more expensive now.

This year, for a goaltender with minimal term like Helleybuck, it will probably take our later firsts and Levi to get him.  Or pay through the nose on price and term for one of the good FAs.

IMHO, the Sabres' goaltending problem is 100% his doing.  His inability to solve it is his fault.  Period.

[Marvin]

8 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

@Marvin, Sabres Fan is an excellent poster but he kinda painted himself into a corner here.

@GASabresIUFAN very nicely lays out how bare the cupboard is.  Yeeeeessshhh.

And I agree that if KA blows the goalie situation for a 3rd consecutive season it will be a huge black mark on his tenure as GM.

To be fair to everyone else, I did it deliberately.  That is how much I value good goaltending, how I read the market, and how angry I have been at the goaltending for the last few years.  My obnoxious extortion price for a goaltender is how I would handle that situation relative to Buffalo because I expect GMKA to be getting heat for how the Sabres have been in goal for a while now, plus other teams feeling their window starting to close, with still more teams hoping to take the next step.

P.S. thank you, @nfreeman, for the compliment.

P.P.S. confirming: yes, I acknowledge my price for a goaltender for Buffalo is outrageous.  If I were a GM, I normally would not trade a goalie with potential and/or term as good as everyone would want, myself included.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Marvin, Sabres Fan

[GASabresIUFAN]

Boy this got snarky fast.

Anyway, I’d love to hear what Marty said if anyone has a link. The market for goaltending should be interesting.  I would not assume we are or are not on anyone’s lost any longer.  I think this team has garnered some respect with their recent play and because of our cap space, there will UFA inquiries.  

There aren’t many teams in the starter goalie market.  3 playoff teams have starters who are UFAs - Campbell (Tor), Koskinen (Edm) and Kuemper (Col) and my guess is Campbell and Kuemper will re-sign.  Koskinen (age 33), could be allowed to walk. Chi, Buff and NJ really have nothing in net.  Of the teams without a real goalie, I’d rather come to Buffalo then a declining Chi team or the void that is NJ.  

There are a couple of teams with big decisions to make.  For example Stl.  Do they re-sign Husso and move on from Binnington (and his NTC).  Is Mon content with Allen as the starter? How does SJ resolve Hill, Reimer and Kahkonen(RFA).

It’s funny to ask this, but will Boston trade Ullmark back to us?  Would KA be interested? Also any interest in Casey DeSmith? Would you take Binnington and his long-term deal if Stl eats 1/3 of it?  

Despite negative comments elsewhere, I wouldn’t mind taking a RFA run at Georgiev or Samsonov.  Both are better goalies then they have shown this year and we might get a real long-term bargain.

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Radar]

7 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

No.  I am saying that deliberately putting himself into this situation is a firable offence.  The time to start fixing this was 2020-1.  Letting this fester for 3 years and the failing to solve it is absolutely firable.  I have to see incontrovertible progress this season.  Period.

Sure.

In 2020-1, start negotiations with Ullmark so that you can sign him before 2021-2.  Make that trade for the goaltender which looked expensive at the time (we know he backed out of 1 on the table when the NHL announced the 3rd G policy; there should have been a back-up which did not include keeping Carter Hutton); it will be far more expensive now.

This year, for a goaltender with minimal term like Helleybuck, it will probably take our later firsts and Levi to get him.  Or pay through the nose on price and term for one of the good FAs.

IMHO, the Sabres' goaltending problem is 100% his doing.  His inability to solve it is his fault.  Period.

I tend to agree to this extent. Should have negotiated with Ulmark  before he reached UFA.

[LGR4GM]

51 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

 

If I were that GM, you laughing and hanging up would be fine with me.  In real life, I would not trade my top goaltender or potential top guy behind my current #1 unless I get a ridiculous offer or he wants out; only in the latter case would I consider a "reasonable price" -- otherwise, I want a trade that is beyond verging on extortion.  Instead, I would hope to be shrewd enough to raid some cap strapped teams, get some character depth, and hope to be next year's LA.  Besides, I saw how the Jack Eichel trade worked for Buffalo and where Buffalo would be with even mediocre goaltending all season.  Why would I trade the ultimate strength for a bunch of crapshoots and non-top-flight players?

Who will ask for goaltending?  Cup contenders with weak starters and cap problems, like LVGK, Edmonton, and Toronto.  I would ask for top-flight players at a 50% discount (Stone, Draisaitl, Matthews), top flight established defenceman at a good price, and my pick of top prospects.  From teams trying to take the next step with good youth and draft position, you saw.  Supply and demand says that asking for the Moon instead of the Oort Cloud is foolish -- I expect to settle for the Kuiper Belt.

Your proposal isn't extortion. Dahlin, Power, 2 firsts, and Jack Quinn for a starting goaltender would get 31 gms to hang up on you and just not deal with you. Calling it outlandish is not even extreme enough, that is honestly the most insane trade I have ever read on this forum going back to Roy for Malkin. 

To the bolded, what is a realistic trade in your mind for decent starter or really good backup who probably would be a starter elsewhere? I can't tell because right now the trade you have outlined is ludicrous in any scenario, Igor Shesterkin isn't worth Dahlin, Power, 2 firsts, and Quinn. 

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, Radar said:

I tend to agree to this extent. Should have negotiated with Ulmark  before he reached UFA.

Hard pass. Ullmark's got a career NHL sv% of .912 which is what he is doing this year for Boston. He's 24th in the NHL for sv% for a goalie who has at least 10 starts, that isn't taking you very far. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by LGR4GM

[Radar]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Hard pass. Ullmark's got a career NHL sv% of .912 which is what he is doing this year for Boston. He's 24th in the NHL for sv% for a goalie who has at least 10 starts, that isn't taking you very far. 

Agree with you as well. I would not have signed him for what he ended up getting. I am saying don't wait until free agency to negotiate if you think you want to retain a player. Frankly the Rhinehart thing upsets me the most. Even more than Eichel.

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Your proposal isn't extortion. Dahlin, Power, 2 firsts, and Jack Quinn for a starting goaltender would get 31 gms to hang up on you and just not deal with you. Calling it outlandish is not even extreme enough, that is honestly the most insane trade I have ever read on this forum going back to Roy for Malkin. 

To the bolded, what is a realistic trade in your mind for decent starter or really good backup who probably would be a starter elsewhere? I can't tell because right now the trade you have outlined is ludicrous in any scenario, Igor Shesterkin isn't worth Dahlin, Power, 2 firsts, and Quinn. 

Clarification: from above, 2 of (Buffalo 2022 1st, Dahlin, Power) plus Quinn for Shesterkin.  And if I am the Strangers, that's not enough.

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Hard pass. Ullmark's got a career NHL sv% of .912 which is what he is doing this year for Boston. He's 24th in the NHL for sv% for a goalie who has at least 10 starts, that isn't taking you very far. 

I had imagined Ullmark as either growing or tiding me over.  This would be year 2 of a 4-5 year contract at about $4M if I had had my druthers.  A bit high, but workable.