Can we win a Cup without a Superstar forward?

[tom webster]

15 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Ask the Oilers and Leafs how having multiple superstar forwards has helped them win a Cup.

The Hasek Sabres had a superstar goalie and a lot of depth.

The Co Captains teams had no superstar but a lot of high end talent and depth. Both teams came close.

This team is shaping up to have a lot of talented depth. It will have a superstar dman. Power and Quinn should be stars, one might turn into a superstar.

Superstars are great but a team of talented depth is usually better if the superstar isn’t properly supported.

A quality goalie is the first step.

A) Having superstar forward doesn’t guarantee you a Cup, but not having one, based on history, makes it extremely difficult 

B) Drury and Briere played like superstars for those two years.

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

They were so much more awful then, they're better than that now.

My Back Pages. 

[Drag0nDan]

18 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think most people here believe this team is on the cusp of being a playoff contender, especially with better goaltending.  

I also think most people here like the depth we are building at forward and look forward to truly running 4 quality limes night in and night out. During these regular season, a team that can roll 4 lines has a distinct advantage. 

However, can this team become a true Cup contender without at least one Superstar forward?

When I look at this forward group I see Skinner, Tuch, Thompson, Mitts, Krebs and Quinn as potential 60-70 pts players.  Cozens 50-60 and possibly better.  That’s great depth, but is it good enough?  I watch our OT play and PP and worry that we lack a dynamic forward to help those specialty areas thrive.  
 

I think with teams being occasionally forced to trade guys - you can acquire your superstar forward in other ways.  Who that guy is and how we acquire him?  I don't think buffalo's in a position to get one yet unfortunately.  Too much bad press around Eichel.  

If both Dahlin, and Power can become superstar defensemen it makes everyone look better too - and just generally make finding a superstar easier.  

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

I think with teams being occasionally forced to trade guys - you can acquire your superstar forward in other ways.  Who that guy is and how we acquire him?  I don't think buffalo's in a position to get one yet unfortunately.  Too much bad press around Eichel.  

If both Dahlin, and Power can become superstar defensemen it makes everyone look better too - and just generally make finding a superstar easier.  

You can only afford a couple really high price contracts. look what happened to Toronto with their three high priced forwards. Honestly, in a few years what are we gonna do with Power and Dahlin if they reach their potential?

[DarthEbriate]

41 minutes ago, SDS said:

You can only afford a couple really high price contracts. look what happened to Toronto with their three high priced forwards. Honestly, in a few years what are we gonna do with Power and Dahlin if they reach their potential?

Win a bunch of games.

(and hope that the escrow is paid and the TV revenue balloons the cap right after Dahlin is locked up long-term on a good deal so that when Power gets his 8x10 it's also seen as a bargain in terms of cap%)

[Curt]

46 minutes ago, SDS said:

You can only afford a couple really high price contracts. look what happened to Toronto with their three high priced forwards. Honestly, in a few years what are we gonna do with Power and Dahlin if they reach their potential?

Be ridiculously happy?

Try to get at least one of them locked up long term for good value.

An NHL team can be a cup contender and maintain a pretty healthy cap situation while having 3 or even 4 players making 10+% of the cap.  The Leafs’ issue is having 3 players all making over 13% of the cap.  They seem to have found a tipping point at which top heavy becomes top heavy.

[dudacek]

11 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Briere topped out at 95 points.  That’s an elite number and drove that team to the President’s Cup.  That team also had very balanced scoring. Overall he had 230 points in 225 games as a Sabre.  Vanek was also an elite goal scorer with two 40 goal seasons, 254 goals in 598 Sabres games snd a 84 pt campaign in 06/07.

I don’t see any current Sabres putting up those kind of numbers and even with those players and a balanced roster, good goaltending and good coaching that team still fell short.  
 

 

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Jack Quinn is a wild card here

I fully expect Quinn to be a Vanek-level player in the NHL.

Also think Dylan Cozens will reach Drury level and may surpass it, although I don't rate Drury as highly as some here seem to.

[dudacek]

Just follow with the above, Vanek put up 68 points in 74 games in his D2 season in Rochester. Quinn has 45 in 31.

Drury put up 44 points in his rookie NHL season in the year he began as a 23-year-old. Cozens is going to finish with 40ish points in the year he began as a 20-year-old.

[woods-racer]

27 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Just follow with the above, Vanek put up 68 points in 74 games in his D2 season in Rochester. Quinn has 45 in 31.

Drury put up 44 points in his rookie NHL season in the year he began as a 23-year-old. Cozens is going to finish with 40ish points in the year he began as a 20-year-old.

If Quinn and Cozens trajectories continue and they are slightly better players than Vanek/Drury my hope is we won't need to find a Hasek level goalie. 

[nfreeman]

58 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

I fully expect Quinn to be a Vanek-level player in the NHL.

Also think Dylan Cozens will reach Drury level and may surpass it, although I don't rate Drury as highly as some here seem to.

I am optimistic but not super-confident that Quinn will approach Vanek's scoring productivity.

I am certain that Quinn's coaches will not detest him the way Vanek's coaches did.

And I will let the continued Drury blasphemy slide.

[LGR4GM]

31 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

If Quinn and Cozens trajectories continue and they are slightly better players than Vanek/Drury my hope is we won't need to find a Hasek level goalie. 

Why? None of those teams won it so. I want hasek level gt

[SDS]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Why? None of those teams won it so. I want hasek level gt

you want one of the greatest goalies of all time? Very reasonable. Lol

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, SDS said:

you want one of the greatest goalies of all time? Very reasonable. Lol

Yes

[woods-racer]

45 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Why? None of those teams won it so. I want hasek level gt

I would like a slighter better top 6/4 and hope to get a very good goalie, which to me is a very doable situation. Finding another Hasek is going to be amazingly tough. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I am optimistic but not super-confident that Quinn will approach Vanek's scoring productivity.

Is there something you saw in Vanek you worry Quinn lacks?

I see Quinn having all the same physical gifts and more drive.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Is there something you saw in Vanek you worry Quinn lacks?

I see Quinn having all the same physical gifts and more drive.

Vanek had better size and used it well.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Is there something you saw in Vanek you worry Quinn lacks?

I see Quinn having all the same physical gifts and more drive.

Not really -- it's just that Vanek, whatever his flaws, was a really good NHL goal scorer.  Given how rare of a commodity that is, the odds are always going to be against Quinn or anyone else developing into that good of a scorer, especially since we've only seen him for a moment in the NHL.

Perhaps my use of "super-confident" gave the wrong impression.  I'd say I'm optimistic, but I'm not counting his 30-goal seasons just yet.

[kas23]

2 hours ago, woods-racer said:

I would like a slighter better top 6/4 and hope to get a very good goalie, which to me is a very doable situation. Finding another Hasek is going to be amazingly tough. 

There will never be another Hasek. I haven’t seen one since he retired and I don’t think we ever will. 

[Gatorman0519]

10 hours ago, Curt said:

I think that for the purposes of this exercise, neither Backstrom or Tarasenko are superstars.

They were pretty good those years. And they had Ovi on Washington, and ROR played at a superstar level that playoffs.  The bottom line is you clearly need a star or two.  I don't think that is even debatable when you look at the past dozen years.  The Sabres probably had the best non star studded team in 05-07 and could not even make it to the finals just playing as a "good well rounded team".  

Edited March 30, 2022 by Gatorman0519

[Zamboni]

Aim to Develop or trade for a “Miller in his prime” level goaltending. And with the current developing young talent, coming in the next year or two,  I think the Sabres are only two or three “quality veteran leaders” away from a pretty good team. At least that’s what I think.

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 3/30/2022 at 9:14 AM, SDS said:

You can only afford a couple really high price contracts. look what happened to Toronto with their three high priced forwards. Honestly, in a few years what are we gonna do with Power and Dahlin if they reach their potential?

The biggest mistake Tor ever made in their rebuild was signing Tavares.  That $11 mil should have gone to upgrade the D.  Instead they have an offensive juggernaut (except when they play us) but can't get over the hump because defense and goaltending win championship.

You certainly can't pay everyone, which is why draft and develop is so critical even going forward.  Outside of Skinner, KA has a ton of hard decisions to make over the next 3 years, but nearly all are RFAs

VO, UPL & Bryson are this year's RFAs

Next year (2023) Cozens, Thompson, Samuelsson, Asplund & Fitz, Also Z and KO as UFAs if you want to keep the leadership group intact.

In 2024 You have Dahlin, Mitts, Jokiharju and possibly Levi and Power if we sign and burn a year this season

In 2025 Quinn & JJP assuming their contracts slide.  Levi and Power if we don't burn a year. 

Of this list 4-5 guys are going to get paid big $.  Right now TNT is in the drivers seat to get the first big check, then Dahlin going to get max money if he continue to build on this season.  After that it's going to be who breaks out first.  Will it be Cozens, Quinn or Mitts?  When does Power hit his stride.  I suspect he'll end up with a 3 year bridge deal before he gets truly big money.

KA gave Dahlin, Mitts, Joki and Thompson all 3 year bridge deals after their 1st contracts.

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Curt]

27 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

They were pretty good those years. And they had Ovi on Washington, and ROR played at a superstar level that playoffs.  The bottom line is you clearly need a star or two.  I don't think that is even debatable when you look at the past dozen years.  The Sabres probably had the best non star studded team in 05-07 and could not even make it to the finals just playing as a "good well rounded team".  

I would counter that any team that wins a cup will have a couple guys who elevate and have a great playoffs.  That’s why they won.  I think for the purposes of this exercise, we are talking about guys who play at a superstar level over a period of years.

With regards to the Sabres.  That team had a superstar goalie, a borderline superstar in Briere, and great depth at  both forward and defense.  That team was a legit contender.  Problem is they only had a 2 year window and one of those years they had a debilitating number of injuries on defense.

A team definitely needs a couple superstar players to win a cup.  The question is, can you win if you don’t have one at forward specifically?

My half baked theory would be that between the Forward, Defense, and Goaltending positions you need a superstar at 2/3.  So if Buffalo ends up with superstars Dahlin and Power on defense, they will need either a superstar goalie or forwards as well.

[Curt]

23 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

then Dahlin going to get max money if he continue to build on this season

Are you being hyperbolic?  Dahlin is not getting max money.  20% of salary cap ceiling.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Are you being hyperbolic?  Dahlin is not getting max money.  20% of salary cap ceiling.

Somewhat but we are paying him 6 mill now.  What if he worth is he is playing 25+ minutes a night putting up 60-70 points at age 23?

Edited March 30, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Somewhat but we are paying him 6 mill now.  What is he worth is he is playing 25 minutes a night putting up 60-70 points at age 23?

Well, max salary would be like $17M (20% of cap).  No one in the league makes more than $12.5M (16.8%).  McDavid signed that after leading the league in scoring (100 pts when next best had just 89) as a 19-20 year old.

Realistically, Dahlin would probably be looking at a contract between $9M and $11M.  It would put him among the top-5 highest paid defensemen.

That would be if he keeps up his current level of play through the end of next season.  Good defense and 60+ points.