A Knights Tale: From Sabre to Knight; one man’s failure to make the playoffs AND how it benefits the Sabres draft position

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, SDS said:

I saw one passing mention that Jack tried to glove down a shot and injured his hand.

🍺

Forgot about that.  He missed the last period or so of that game and people speculated he'd be out for a while. If he did crack a bone or badly bruise it, that could go a long way towards him not being able to make a simple pass the last 2 weeks.

Wonder if it was anybody here that put the voodoo pin in the hand?  Would've expected it to go into a more "tender" region.  😉

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Taro T

[Marvin]

I think that any evaluation by us (and Jack Eichel himself, for that matter) has to look at the leadership in Buffalo when he came here.  All of the mistakes made by the Coaches, the GMs, and the Ownership have been enumerated ad nauseum here.  How much better would he and the team have been if there had been competent management, coaching, mentorship, and/or more balanced and effective rosters?

 

[SDS]

20 minutes ago, Taro T said:

🍺

Forgot about that.  He missed the last period or so of that game and people speculated he'd be out for a while. If he did crack a bone or badly bruise it, that could go a long way towards him not being able to make a simple pass the last 2 weeks.

Wonder if it was anybody here that put the voodoo pin in the hand?  Would've expected it to go into a more "tender" region.  😉

 

That was March 17. He had 12 points since that game. That included a little mini streak in there. I’m not sure that is it.

[RochesterExpat]

24 minutes ago, SDS said:

I saw one passing mention that Jack tried to glove down a shot and injured his hand.

The VGK subreddit is of the opinion he's been playing with a broken finger.

[SDS]

Just now, RochesterExpat said:

The VGK subreddit is of the opinion he's been playing with a broken finger.

If that’s the case, I don’t think it happened on March 17.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

That was March 17. He had 12 points since that game. That included a little mini streak in there. I’m not sure that is it.

OK, so it probably wasn't the hand.

🍺

 

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, RochesterExpat said:

The VGK subreddit is of the opinion he's been playing with a broken finger.

More like broken.  Just broken. 

[ddaryl]

41 minutes ago, MBD said:

One must put up barriers, to keep oneself intact.

....insert Guitar solo here...

[nfreeman]

23 minutes ago, SDS said:

I saw one passing mention that Jack tried to glove down a shot and injured his hand.

Aside from the attitude/culture issues, it's fair to note that Eichel has missed quite a bit of time with injury over his career.  He didn't miss substantial time in his 1st, 4th or 5th seasons, but:

2nd year -- 21 games missed

3rd year -- 15 games

6th year -- 35 games

7th year -- 47 games

 

[MBD]

3 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

....insert Guitar solo here...

I'm laid up with the VID.  I think I'll learn that solo.

[SDS]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Aside from the attitude/culture issues, it's fair to note that Eichel has missed quite a bit of time with injury over his career.  He didn't miss substantial time in his 1st, 4th or 5th seasons, but:

2nd year -- 21 games missed

3rd year -- 15 games

6th year -- 35 games

7th year -- 47 games

 

Which is mildly odd, because he doesn’t really play a tremendously physical game, despite being ridiculously strong.

[Taro T]

Just now, nfreeman said:

Aside from the attitude/culture issues, it's fair to note that Eichel has missed quite a bit of time with injury over his career.  He didn't miss substantial time in his 1st, 4th or 5th seasons, but:

2nd year -- 21 games missed

3rd year -- 15 games

6th year -- 35 games

7th year -- 47 games

 

Yeah, his inability to stay healthy prior to the neck injury & the uncertainty THAT brought forward (never mind the extreme uncertainty of how the neck would hold up) made it a pretty fair trade.  If he really can't get to 70-75 games per year (can't see him ever hitting 82) then Vegas definitely loses.

Either way, pretty sure everybody on this side of the divide views it as a win for the Sabres.  (Vegas could still feel like they've won after all is said & done, but pretty sure they have buyer's remorse right now. 😉 )

 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, SDS said:

Which is mildly odd, because he doesn’t really play a tremendously physical game, despite being ridiculously strong.

He doesn't play particularly physical, but he goes at high speed (when healthy) to dirty areas (front of the net & boards behind net).  Other than the ribs broken while training that's where most of his injuries happen. 

[RochesterExpat]

Just now, Taro T said:

Yeah, his inability to stay healthy prior to the neck injury & the uncertainty THAT brought forward (never mind the extreme uncertainty of how the neck would hold up) made it a pretty fair trade.  If he really can't get to 70-75 games per year (can't see him ever hitting 82) then Vegas definitely loses.

Either way, pretty sure everybody on this side of the divide views it as a win for the Sabres.  (Vegas could still feel like they've won after all is said & done, but pretty sure they have buyer's remorse right now. 😉 )

 

I'm a believer that trade winners are determined by Stanley Cups. If Vegas wins the cup with Jack Eichel, regardless of Buffalo making the playoffs for the next 15 seasons because of the future HHoFer they're drafting at 16th this season, Vegas still wins the trade. If Buffalo wins the cup with Krebs, Tuch, and aforementioned future HHoFer, then Buffalo wins the trade.

That being said, at least initially, this trade appears to have done more damage to VGK due to salary cap if nothing else.  Next year will be a better tell.

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

He doesn't play particularly physical, but he goes at high speed (when healthy) to dirty areas (front of the net & boards behind net).  Other than the ribs broken while training that's where most of his injuries happen. 

When players get a lot of un-related injuries in their career, I don't usually think they are 'injury prone' due to their body just being more fragile than anyone elses.  However, as you mentioned, it could be related to their style of play.  The parts of the ice you spend your time in...how much you engage in physical play, maybe even something as simple as how your body is positioned when battling for a puck on the boards....all that can be related to how much/how often a player gets injured.

I'm not there with Eichel being 'injury prone' yet, but we are for sure on the lookout if that keeps happening.  Another 1 or 2 nagging injuries that cause him to miss time in the next year or so..and you might have to think he is 'injury prone' and likely to miss time due to his style of play, if nothing else.

[SDS]

"On paper, what can anyone say we're missing? We have it all," Pacioretty said. "But at the same time, everyone knows that hard work beats that talent on paper and chemistry is probably what's most important, on and off the ice."

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Eichel wasn’t “the” problem here and he isn’t “the” problem in Vegas. What the Sabres had wrong and what the Knights now have wrong is the belief that Eichel was/is “the” solution. He isn’t.
 

When fully healthy he is really good. What he isn’t is a generational talent who will lift a moribund franchise out of the darkness. What he isn’t Is an elite “top-five centre in the world” who is the missing piece for a championship team. It’s unfortunate for him that he keeps being casted in roles he is not suited for. 

Agree. Eichel is a piece you add, not a piece you build your entire team around. He’s a spoke in a wheel, not a hub. 

[mjd1001]

9 minutes ago, RochesterExpat said:

I'm a believer that trade winners are determined by Stanley Cups. If Vegas wins the cup with Jack Eichel, regardless of Buffalo making the playoffs for the next 15 seasons because of the future HHoFer they're drafting at 16th this season, Vegas still wins the trade. If Buffalo wins the cup with Krebs, Tuch, and aforementioned future HHoFer, then Buffalo wins the trade.

That being said, at least initially, this trade appears to have done more damage to VGK due to salary cap if nothing else.  Next year will be a better tell.

Going forward it is going to be really tough for Vegas as we all know:

-They are up against the cap, they likely will have to move pieces they don't want to

-This is not a young team that is still getting better and growing. Other than 'superstars', most NHL forward peak in production in their mid to late 20's. Mark Stone will be turning 30 next year. Pacioretti 34, Karlsson 30, Marchessault 30, Dadonov 34, with virtually no-one under the age of 25 coming up looking to make a big contribution. D-isnt any better, their top 2 paid guys will be 33 and 35 next year.

-Not only don't they have cap space to make big moves, but those guys can still be productive but they aren't getting better at that age. What moves can they make to get better? As much as Vegas fans and their message boards want to move some of those guys to 'clear up room', who else is going to take them at that age and their contract and give Vegas a younger, more productive guy back? Not going to happen.

Who knows what the Kings are going to do this offseason, they may be the team I can least figure out going forward...so...If Eichel comes back full strength, gives them 40 goals and 90+ points I can see them making the playoffs, but I can't under really any circumstance see this aging team being on of the top teams in the league anymore and making any kind of run in the playoffs for the rest of Eichel's contract there.

[steveoath]

6 minutes ago, SDS said:

"On paper, what can anyone say we're missing? We have it all," Pacioretty said. "But at the same time, everyone knows that hard work beats that talent on paper and chemistry is probably what's most important, on and off the ice."

Just now, mjd1001 said:

This is not a young team that is still getting better and growing. Other than 'superstars', most NHL forward peak in production in their mid to late 20's. Mark Stone will be turning 30 next year. Pacioretti 34, Karlsson 30, Marchessault 30, Dadonov 34, with virtually no-one under the age of 25 coming up looking to make a big contribution. D-isnt any better, their top 2 paid guys will be 33 and 35 next year.

How many of their main money makers also have trade protection? 

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Eichel wasn’t “the” problem here and he isn’t “the” problem in Vegas. What the Sabres had wrong and what the Knights now have wrong is the belief that Eichel was/is “the” solution. He isn’t.
 

When fully healthy he is really good. What he isn’t is a generational talent who will lift a moribund franchise out of the darkness. What he isn’t Is an elite “top-five centre in the world” who is the missing piece for a championship team. It’s unfortunate for him that he keeps being casted in roles he is not suited for. 

You have that 100% correct I'm pretty sure.

Eichel is not generational as many of us have said many times. His single best year in the league, the year some people thought he should be an MVP candidate, he finished 10th in the league in scoring. Most every other year he was farther down the league leaders than that.

He would probably be better served, and more useful, if he was viewed as something close to a Phil Kessel type player. Don't give a 'C' or an 'A'.  Put other players around him that you make CLEAR to Jack...those other players are the leaders, those other players speak for the locker room, the team.  Those other players are the ones who take all the media sessions.  Jack gets all his PP time and 1st or even 2nd line minutes.  The problem is, Jack himself still seems to think he is better than that. He still thinks he deserves an 'A' or a 'C'. Jack seems to think he deserves all the ice time and that everything on the ice should go through him.

[nfreeman]

27 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yeah, his inability to stay healthy prior to the neck injury & the uncertainty THAT brought forward (never mind the extreme uncertainty of how the neck would hold up) made it a pretty fair trade.  If he really can't get to 70-75 games per year (can't see him ever hitting 82) then Vegas definitely loses.

Either way, pretty sure everybody on this side of the divide views it as a win for the Sabres.  (Vegas could still feel like they've won after all is said & done, but pretty sure they have buyer's remorse right now. 😉 )

 

That's an interesting question.  Would Vegas go back in time and undo the trade if they could?  I guess I think that unless Jack has been a huge DB and alienated everyone in the organization (which is possible but unlikely), they probably feel that he did quite well for having missed an entire year and are fairly confident that he will come back and be a great player next year and thereafter, and that the team overall will be healthier and better next year than they were this year -- so I don't think they would undo the trade.

[rickshaw]

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yeah, his inability to stay healthy prior to the neck injury & the uncertainty THAT brought forward (never mind the extreme uncertainty of how the neck would hold up) made it a pretty fair trade.  If he really can't get to 70-75 games per year (can't see him ever hitting 82) then Vegas definitely loses.

Either way, pretty sure everybody on this side of the divide views it as a win for the Sabres.  (Vegas could still feel like they've won after all is said & done, but pretty sure they have buyer's remorse right now. 😉 )

 

Vegas can feel however they like but they lost this trade and they’re really going to have to work a lot of magic to keep being a contender.

[mjd1001]

11 minutes ago, steveoath said:

How many of their main money makers also have trade protection? 

According to Cap friendly, basically all of them.

Stone and Pietrangelo, No Movement Clauses.

Pacioretti, Karlsson, Dadanov, Marchessault, Martinez, and Lehner all with at least modified No-trade clauses.

Take out Eichel, and that is all of their top 5 paid forwards, their 2 highest pad D-men, and their highest paid goalie all with limited no-movement deals or more.  All of them over 30 years old by next year.

Edited April 28, 2022 by mjd1001

[SDS]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

According to Cap friendly, basically all of them.

Stone and Pietrangelo, No Movement Clauses.

Pacioretti, Karlsson, Dadanov, Marchessault, Martinez, and Lehner all with at least modified No-trade clauses.

Take out Eichel, and that is all of their top 5 paid forwards, their 2 highest pad D-men, and their highest paid goalie all with limited no-movement deals or more.  All of them over 30 years old by next year.

Doesn’t Eichel‘s full NMC go into affect this summer?

[JustOneParade]

I realize much can change in 12 months. But even assuming none of VGK's 'seasoned vets' regress a bit because of age, can anyone see this team beating COL or Calgary in a seven game series to get out of the West playoffs next year? And if they should, could they beat any of the top 4 teams in the east to win a Cup? I'd say there's less than a 5% chance of Las Vegas winning a Cup before that roster disintegrates.