We need to talk about Jokiharju's bad defense

[SDS]

I’m not really sure how valid fancy stats are to this specific team. DG hasn’t been looking to maximize player usage all year. he’s trying to improve everyone’s weaknesses, not just leverage their current strengths.

For example, he recently just commented about various centers playing wing. He said he is specifically playing certain natural centers at wing not because they would be better there, but so that they will be better centers/wings ***next year***. 

what nobody knows is what DG told #10 to work on prior these past games. He may have done exactly what DG asked him to do, but was not rewarded with a rise in fancy stats.

[Flashsabre]

I think Joker is a young developing dman. Where he fits moving forward will be determined by who else Adams brings in on the right side.

I mean there is a whole argument with charts and graphs. Do all the top players in the league have the top charts?

Would you draft a player based solely on his chart if it was higher then a couple other players you like better?

 Charts can be useful but we can’t use it to solely determine someone’s play or value.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Flashsabre

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Flashsabre said:

I think Joker is a young developing dman. Where he fits moving forward will be determined by who else Adams brings in on the right side.

I mean there is a whole argument with charts and graphs. Do all the top players in the league have the top charts?

Would you draft a player based solely on his chart if it was higher then a couple other players you like better?

 Charts can be useful but we can’t use it to solely determine someone’s play or value.

No one does. 

Whenever I read these posts it just sounds like you saying "I don't believe in using analytics" 

It's a tool that shows Dahlin is maximized more with Bryson as his partner and Joker might not be that good. Instead I'm just reading ppl upset and bashing fancy stats instead of asking why Joker might be bad in that spot. 

No one uses charts to solely decide a players value. 

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No one does. 

Whenever I read these posts it just sounds like you saying "I don't believe in using analytics" 

It's a tool that shows Dahlin is maximized more with Bryson as his partner and Joker might not be that good. Instead I'm just reading ppl upset and bashing fancy stats instead of asking why Joker might be bad in that spot. 

No one uses charts to solely decide a players value. 

He might be bad in that spot because he is bad in that spot and he’s being put there to be better in the future. 

[dudacek]

If we are going to talk about Joki’s “bad” defence, can we talk about what he is “bad” at?

Reads? Closing the gap on the rush? Puck battles? Outlet passes? 
To my eye, he’s pretty smart, pretty safe, pretty mobile and pretty weak physically. 

[North Buffalo]

19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If we are going to talk about Joki’s “bad” defence, can we talk about what he is “bad” at?

Reads? Closing the gap on the rush? Puck battles? Outlet passes? 
To my eye, he’s pretty smart, pretty safe, pretty mobile and pretty weak physically. 

Maybe Fitzgerald once healthy... Dhalin and Fitz,  Joker and Samuel, Psyk and Hagg with Bryson 7th D... not Horrible... add Power next year... just spitballing

[DarthEbriate]

28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If we are going to talk about Joki’s “bad” defence, can we talk about what he is “bad” at?

Reads? Closing the gap on the rush? Puck battles? Outlet passes? 
To my eye, he’s pretty smart, pretty safe, pretty mobile and pretty weak physically. 

It's one of those things where we hope he bulks up over the next few seasons and becomes a Lydman-type whom you can pair with almost anyone, top pair or rookie.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

No one does. 

Whenever I read these posts it just sounds like you saying "I don't believe in using analytics" 

It's a tool that shows Dahlin is maximized more with Bryson as his partner and Joker might not be that good. Instead I'm just reading ppl upset and bashing fancy stats instead of asking why Joker might be bad in that spot. 

No one uses charts to solely decide a players value. 

You didn't give any examples of bad play. You said we need to talk about his bad defense and posted a chart. Basically saying, look at the chart, see?!!!

[pi2000]

I agree.   Jokiharju is not good defending in his own end.     He's consistently outmatched physically.     

Watch closely next game, teams dump it in is corner every time, it's an easy forecheck and retrieval/turnover.   

I prefer Fitzgerald over him at this point.  I'd even consider moving him if the right deal came along.

[Huckleberry]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Well that's a crock of sh!t

Bryson should play with Dahlin. 

Yeah just wanted to say this, each time both of them are together on the ice, bryson covers a lot with his speed.   And Dahlin can go up ice more.

[Spoonman]

Joker playing better on 2nd line…. D lines will continue to be adjusted w Owen coming onboard. 
 

Potential ‘22-‘23 D pairs:

Dhals / Fitz

Power / Joker

Mule / Bryson

Pysyk (trade at deadline & resign - good veteran) 

Trade Hagg @ deadline (I wouldn’t mind bringing him back to camp & see what happens)

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, Spoonman said:

Joker playing better on 2nd line…. D lines will continue to be adjusted w Owen coming onboard. 
 

Potential ‘22-‘23 D pairs:

Dhals / Fitz

Power / Joker

Mule / Bryson

Pysyk (trade at deadline & resign - good veteran) 

Trade Hagg @ deadline (I wouldn’t mind bringing him back to camp & see what happens)

I want them to keep Hagg and I'd rather him play with Power on the third pair, as a steadying presence, at least for the first quarter of the season.  I like Joker but let's put him with Mule on the 2d pair.  Or pop Mule up with Dahlin.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Eleven

[GoPuckYourself]

Put him with Power then but I like the Samuelsson/Fitzgerald combo.

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, SwampD said:

You didn't give any examples of bad play. You said we need to talk about his bad defense and posted a chart. Basically saying, look at the chart, see?!!!

Yes look at the chart, what does it show. 

I get it, stats are scary so we have hate things that make us afraid. 

3 hours ago, pi2000 said:

I agree.   Jokiharju is not good defending in his own end.     He's consistently outmatched physically.     

Watch closely next game, teams dump it in is corner every time, it's an easy forecheck and retrieval/turnover.   

I prefer Fitzgerald over him at this point.  I'd even consider moving him if the right deal came along.

That's what I see. He's not strong on the puck and if his first read is covered it gets adventurous 

[SwampD]

9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yes look at the chart, what does it show. 

I get it, stats are scary so we have hate things that make us afraid. 

That's what I see. He's not strong on the puck and if his first read is covered it gets adventurous 

Those monsters off the edge of the map were real.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

Those monsters off the edge of the map were real.

That's why they draw them. It's not decorative, it's a warning

[SwampD]

I think he's still hurt.

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No one does. 

Whenever I read these posts it just sounds like you saying "I don't believe in using analytics" 

It's a tool that shows Dahlin is maximized more with Bryson as his partner and Joker might not be that good. Instead I'm just reading ppl upset and bashing fancy stats instead of asking why Joker might be bad in that spot. 

No one uses charts to solely decide a players value. 

Why do you think that Granato has for now decided to pair Dahlin with Joki? 

[Andrew Amerk]

Joki will be fine. 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Why do you think that Granato has for now decided to pair Dahlin with Joki? 

Lineup decisions are never permanent.

But Granato has sung the praises of the Dahlin/Jokiharju pairing in multiple occasions, including recently.

[LGR4GM]

What's interesting here is that Jokiharju is very weak in the crease at tying up shooters or boxing them out, yet I never see complaints about his very limited lack of physical play. His shot chart shows that the crease is attacked at will when he's on the ice. I think Granato may know this and I suppose it's trying to get him to learn to defend the crease and goal front better. 

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Lineup decisions are never permanent.

But Granato has sung the praises of the Dahlin/Jokiharju pairing in multiple occasions, including recently.

I saw a clip of DG praising Joki in his post game comments. 

It's more than likely that the Dahlin/Jokiharju pairing stay in tact this season. Next year, I wouldn't count on it. It's going to be interesting to see how he assembles the pairings when Power and others ?? join the group.

What he and the other youngsters need to work on this offseason is their strength. In a flowing game Joki is okay. In his defensive zone where he has to match up he gets overpowered. 

[JohnC]

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What's interesting here is that Jokiharju is very weak in the crease at tying up shooters or boxing them out, yet I never see complaints about his very limited lack of physical play. His shot chart shows that the crease is attacked at will when he's on the ice. I think Granato may know this and I suppose it's trying to get him to learn to defend the crease and goal front better. 

Your description of his play in the crease is accurate. He needs to get much stronger. As you seem to suggest even when he gets stronger handling the crease area is not going to be an area he excels at. It just seems that that the coach is more enamored with his full length game to compensate for his less effective play around the crease. In his calculation the plusses exceed the minuses. 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I saw a clip of DG praising Joki in his post game comments. 

It's more than likely that the Dahlin/Jokiharju pairing stay in tact this season. Next year, I wouldn't count on it. It's going to be interesting to see how he assembles the pairings when Power and others ?? join the group.

What he and the other youngsters need to work on this offseason is their strength. In a flowing game Joki is okay. In his defensive zone where he has to match up he gets overpowered. 

The Sabres braintrust has spoken about Jokiharju/Dahlin as a pair moving forward and the need to acquire Power's partner.

Edited March 15, 2022 by dudacek

[woods-racer]

Muel, Dahlin, Power.

Their etched in stone on this team. The other three are still being worked out.