Jack vs Tuch/Krebs - Has this hockey trade improved either team?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Has this trade changed the fortunes of either club?  Obviously it's early days and both teams have other issues.  

LV record with Jack: 2-3-1.  Jack is now playing 19 minutes a night and getting his shots but has only 1 goal in 18 shots (5.6%), and 3 assists.  LV record without Jack 28-17-3.  They are still third in the Pacific, but could easily miss the playoffs.  Edm and Ana are within 3 points.  

Sabres with Tuch: 7-13-3. Tuch is playing almost 20 minutes a night and has 7 goals and 16 assists for 23 points in 23 games.  He hasn't scored a goal in 7 games.  The Sabres without Tuch are 10-17-5.  Pts per game have fallen slightly since Tuch was added to the lineup (.78 vs .74), but scoring is up slightly (2.74 vvs 2.65 for the season).  Krebs has 3 goals and 7 assists for 10 points in his 21 games.

Granted this debate will ebb and flow over time.  Right now the I'd argue Tuch has improved the Sabres forward group, but that the team's other issues (goaltending and defense) are to overwhelming for that impact to influence the standing to much.  

As to LV, 6 games is to small a sample size given Jack's injury and missing a year of game action.  However, I'm going to keep an eye on that shooting %. That needs to improve for Jack to have the impact LV purchased.  I am glad Jack in back on the ice, but they need him to be a star for this to ultimately work for them.  

[dudacek]

Jack Eichel hasn't played hockey for a year, and been healthy for nearly 2. He's on a new team. He's going to take some time to find his groove. He will.

Alex Tuch has played more like the Vegas Tuch for the past two weeks or so. It will be interesting to see where he settles.

Sabres didn't make the trade to get better this season, so the timing makes this question moot as far as they are concerned.

Knights did make the trade to get better this season, specifically the playoffs, so TBA.

Edited March 3, 2022 by dudacek

[French Collection]

Vegas’ success was early and unexpected, they are now expected to go deep.

They were stocked with 3rd liners and punched above their weight. Their identity was hard work and relentless effort.
Their owner has added stars to this mix now and expects more.

I don’t think they go as deep relying on Lehner. I think they should have kept Fleury, he seems to be a glue guy plus he has won.

[mjd1001]

I think it will help both eventually.  Every year when Vegas loses in the playoffs, the days following that series were they needed a better #1 center. They now have the potential for that. Win for Vegas.

For the Sabres, if Krebs progresses to even being a 'good' NHL player and Tuch plays the way he has this year (and the last couple), and throw in the value of a late first round pick..its a win for the Sabres.

Personally, I am already happy with the trade. As a fan, I never connected with Eichel...and I already am more of a fan of Tuch.  Krebs potential and a first rounder are just the topping on that.

Edited March 3, 2022 by mjd1001

[Pimlach]

Too early to say.  Eichel is still not Eichel.  The gauge for Vegas was immediately improve and get a Cup.  But long term is also a factor.  
 

Tuch + Krebs + #1 pick + #2 pick will take years to evaluate.  No doubt that Tuch will help turn this around.  No doubt Krebs has potential to be a very good center.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

There is one thing that I don't think is debatable.  Losing Jack has left the Sabres with only one truly dynamic player and that is Dahlin.  As much as I like, Tuch, Thompson, Mitts, Cozens and even Krebs, none of them truly drives offense individually.  The line of Skinner, Tuch and Thompson are playing as an excellent collective and driving offense.  This lack of a dynamic player shows itself on the PP and in OT more than any other place, but it is felt.  

Team efforts like last night are how this team needs to succeed without a true No 1. center.  

Edited March 3, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[inkman]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

There is one thing that I don't think is debatable.  Losing Jack has left the Sabres with only one truly dynamic player and that is Dahlin.  As much as I like, Tuch, Thompson, Mitts, Cozens and even Krebs, none of them truly drives offense individually.  The line of Skinner, Tuch and Thompson are playing as an excellent collective and driving offense.  This lack of a dynamic player shows itself on the PP and in OT more then any other place, but it is felt.  

Team efforts like last night are how this team needs to succeed without a true No 1. center.  

Last night was an all out assault on the forecheck that absolutely derailed Toronto’s D zone breakouts.  I don’t believe that level of effort is sustainable.  Granato even indicated as much in the post game as he stated he doesn’t think the team did itself any favors in preparation for the outdoor game.  Assuming he meant they’d be gassed from the intensity they played with. Not sure if that adds up but it is what it is. 

[Zamboni]

27 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Too early to say.  Eichel is still not Eichel.  The gauge for Vegas was immediately improve and get a Cup.  But long term is also a factor.  
 

Tuch + Krebs + #1 pick + #2 pick will take years to evaluate.  No doubt that Tuch will help turn this around.  No doubt Krebs has potential to be a very good center.  

Exactly 

Way too early as of March 2022.

[Weave]

Holy impatience, Batman!

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

Last night was an all out assault on the forecheck that absolutely derailed Toronto’s D zone breakouts.  I don’t believe that level of effort is sustainable.  Granato even indicated as much in the post game as he stated he doesn’t think the team did itself any favors in preparation for the outdoor game.  Assuming he meant they’d be gassed from the intensity they played with. Not sure if that adds up but it is what it is. 

I don't know, but they'd better not be gassed from this level of intensity on the forecheck in 10 days. They have 2 days off before the outdoor game... so they should be able to forecheck the hell out of the Leafs again. Now, this intensity is probably impossible on the 2nd of a back-to-back or the 3rd game in 4 days, but that should not be an excuse. They only have the Vegas game in the 5 days leading up to the Toronto rematch.

Now! What I'd also add is the the "did itself any favors in preparation" for the rematch --- that's where coaching comes in. TOR will be ready for all-out forecheck. So in the rematch, try doing an evil trap for a bit, no forecheck and full clog at the blue line, 1-3-1, etc. Switch it up. And then bring in the attacking forecheck during the game, as needed.

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Has this trade changed the fortunes of either club?  Obviously it's early days and both teams have other issues.  

LV record with Jack: 2-3-1.  Jack is now playing 19 minutes a night and getting his shots but has only 1 goal in 18 shots (5.6%), and 3 assists.  LV record without Jack 28-17-3.  They are still third in the Pacific, but could easily miss the playoffs.  Edm and Ana are within 3 points.  

Sabres with Tuch: 7-13-3. Tuch is playing almost 20 minutes a night and has 7 goals and 16 assists for 23 points in 23 games.  He hasn't scored a goal in 7 games.  The Sabres without Tuch are 10-17-5.  Pts per game have fallen slightly since Tuch was added to the lineup (.78 vs .74), but scoring is up slightly (2.74 vvs 2.65 for the season).  Krebs has 3 goals and 7 assists for 10 points in his 21 games.

Granted this debate will ebb and flow over time.  Right now the I'd argue Tuch has improved the Sabres forward group, but that the team's other issues (goaltending and defense) are to overwhelming for that impact to influence the standing to much.  

As to LV, 6 games is to small a sample size given Jack's injury and missing a year of game action.  However, I'm going to keep an eye on that shooting %. That needs to improve for Jack to have the impact LV purchased.  I am glad Jack in back on the ice, but they need him to be a star for this to ultimately work for them.  

Assuming Jack returns to pre-injury form Vegas will benefit more from the trade. As @dudaceknoted he has not played in more than a year. So undoubtably he is going to get better. He's a special talent that isn't available in every draft. And it should be remembered that if the Sabres would have allowed him to have the surgery when he wanted to have it, maybe the return would have been even better? But at this point that is a meaningless issue.  

As far as the impact on the rebuilding Sabres one advantage in this deal is that this team got back two contributing players for one. (I'm not including the future draft picks in this discussion.) One of the major weaknesses in the Jack and Reinhart era is they didn't have enough support surrounding them that would have made them and the team even more effective.

Tuch is a good player and Krebs should also in time be a good second-line player. Jack is an exceptional/elite player that most good teams don't have access to because of where they are usually positioned in the draft. I'm hoping this regime learns its lesson from the mistakes of the past.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

To me it really doesn't matter.

The Sabres did what they had to do.  They got about the best anyone could really hope for.  Tuch is good.  Krebs looks like he will be good.  The picks are just that and we will have to wait and see.

Vegas got a fantastic player and #1 centre in John.  Assuming he will get back his old self or there abouts and he will help Vegas a lot.  Probably not enough to get them the cup this year with their other roster issues, but who knows.  John is used to missing the playoffs.  He can help Vegas through that if they don't make it this year.

[thewookie1]

Well one huge positive is what Tuch brings as a person and role model. Eichel will likely always be the better player; but Tuch alone may effectively solve our team's culture dearth. 

In my honest opinion, where we serious hurt the Sabres was by cutting off the entire team's past upon the start of the tank. Every team needs a sense of the importance of the crest they wear. Essentially, since the 70's I would bet the Sabres have had at least a couple players overlap between different versions of the team thus carrying the torch through the ages. Think about it, as I'm not old enough to know the 70's/80s I'll merely guess that the torch was passed from Perrault to someone else in the 80's, Rob Ray for instance played on both the high flying early 90's team and the late 90's Cup Run team. Jay McKee was youngster on the 99 Cup Run team and a savvy player for the team in the 05-06 run. While no where near as successful, the core of 2010 were almost entirely vets of the 06 team. When we tanked and traded Ennis, Myers, Stafford, Vanek, Pominville, and Miller by the end of '13 we had practicality cut the line with our entire past. Murray brought in GIonta and Gorges but both were Canadiens, not Sabres. But more importantly they were well past their primes. The only real connection we have left is a thin line between Girgs and the 13-14 team. We had a chance to fix this problem with Pominville's return and we did see a positive result but Botts decided to let him leave while still playing at a solid level. Pominville alone wouldn't of completetly solved the issues plaging the team culture but he gave the franchise some continuity which it lacked.

Tuch is a weird case since he is a fan, like us, whom is not directly linked to the past Sabres teams but has the personal connection to the franchise that can spread to his teammates. He's like a time capsule from 05-06 whom genuinely wants to be here and play hard for this franchise and its fans. Essentially Tuch could be the transplant this team needs to finally get out of the ditch we've been in since 2012.

[PromoTheRobot]

Let's put it this way. Vegas is clinging to a playoff berth right now. If they don't make it and if Jack never becomes much of a contributor this year, especially when they put Stone on LTIR just to make room for him, seats are going to get warm in the Vegas front office.

[JKB1646]

Vegas will benefit come playoffs due to the a**inine rule that when playoffs start there is no salary cap. That’s just about when Mark Stone will be ready to come back from his sore back……shocker. Vegas is not built for long term. They,ve sold their sole to the devil to win now. They have traded all their picks away and have a serious Salary cap issue

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, JKB1646 said:

Vegas will benefit come playoffs due to the a**inine rule that when playoffs start there is no salary cap. That’s just about when Mark Stone will be ready to come back from his sore back……shocker. Vegas is not built for long term. They,ve sold their sole to the devil to win now. They have traded all their picks away and have a serious Salary cap issue

They need to make the playoffs first. Right now they have all of a one point lead 

[Curt]

8 hours ago, French Collection said:

Vegas’ success was early and unexpected, they are now expected to go deep.

They were stocked with 3rd liners and punched above their weight. Their identity was hard work and relentless effort.
Their owner has added stars to this mix now and expects more.

I don’t think they go as deep relying on Lehner. I think they should have kept Fleury, he seems to be a glue guy plus he has won.

Vegas built their team and became successful with a certain identity.  Hardworking, egalitarian, scrappy underdog type stuff.

Since they they have stripped the roster of many of the players/leaders who were part of that and replaced them with star players from outside the organization in a pretty short time period.  They look better on paper, but I don’t think they know quite who they are anymore.  I’m kind of interested to see if they can get in harmony and go far in the playoffs or not.  I think that they have gone too far.

[Thorner]

12 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Has this trade changed the fortunes of either club?  Obviously it's early days and both teams have other issues.  

LV record with Jack: 2-3-1.  Jack is now playing 19 minutes a night and getting his shots but has only 1 goal in 18 shots (5.6%), and 3 assists.  LV record without Jack 28-17-3.  They are still third in the Pacific, but could easily miss the playoffs.  Edm and Ana are within 3 points.  

Sabres with Tuch: 7-13-3. Tuch is playing almost 20 minutes a night and has 7 goals and 16 assists for 23 points in 23 games.  He hasn't scored a goal in 7 games.  The Sabres without Tuch are 10-17-5.  Pts per game have fallen slightly since Tuch was added to the lineup (.78 vs .74), but scoring is up slightly (2.74 vvs 2.65 for the season).  Krebs has 3 goals and 7 assists for 10 points in his 21 games.

Granted this debate will ebb and flow over time.  Right now the I'd argue Tuch has improved the Sabres forward group, but that the team's other issues (goaltending and defense) are to overwhelming for that impact to influence the standing to much.  

As to LV, 6 games is to small a sample size given Jack's injury and missing a year of game action.  However, I'm going to keep an eye on that shooting %. That needs to improve for Jack to have the impact LV purchased.  I am glad Jack in back on the ice, but they need him to be a star for this to ultimately work for them.  

Goaltending and D issues are well mentioned for Tuch context, Stone going on IR as soon as JE started playing should be mentioned on the other side - he’s a big part of that team. I’d imagine having both in the lineup which hasn’t happened yet will be big for them 

6 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Let's put it this way. Vegas is clinging to a playoff berth right now. If they don't make it and if Jack never becomes much of a contributor this year, especially when they put Stone on LTIR just to make room for him, seats are going to get warm in the Vegas front office.

If Stone was healthy he’d be playing - this reads as if they are intentionally keeping him out right now as a cost of making room for Jack 

[PromoTheRobot]

22 minutes ago, Thorny said:

If Stone was healthy he’d be playing - this reads as if they are intentionally keeping him out right now as a cost of making room for Jack 

Is that not the plan?

[JKB1646]

That is the plan. They were at the Cap ceiling before John Eichel was ever in the picture. They had to either trade off $11M or oh hey let’s just put Stone on LTIR until the playoffs 😜. I hate that rule. All season long Cap then come playoffs no Cap!

[North Buffalo]

The curse of Jack is happening Vegas... they lost again... to Bastan... Vegas sits 1 point out of not making the playoffs and three teams within 2 points of them including Dallas which has two games in hand.

Edited March 4, 2022 by North Buffalo

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, North Buffalo said:

The curse of Jack is happening Vegas... they lost again... to Bastan... Vegas sits 1 point out of not making the playoffs and three teams within 2 points of them including Dallas which has two games in hand.

If they miss the playoffs, does the first round pick automatically slide?  Or is it just top 10 protected?

 

[Curt]

10 hours ago, Thorny said:

Goaltending and D issues are well mentioned for Tuch context, Stone going on IR as soon as JE started playing should be mentioned on the other side - he’s a big part of that team. I’d imagine having both in the lineup which hasn’t happened yet will be big for them 

If Stone was healthy he’d be playing - this reads as if they are intentionally keeping him out right now as a cost of making room for Jack 

Well......Stone was put on LTIR at exactly the same time that Eichel was ready to play games, and I am willing to bet that he will not miss a playoff game.

I don’t doubt that his back is kind of messed up, it was an issue for him last season as well, but I think he would normally be playing through it and is only on LTIR due to his team’s cap situation.

[ddaryl]

16 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

If they miss the playoffs, does the first round pick automatically slide?  Or is it just top 10 protected?

 

only top 10 lottery protected 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/golden-knights-sabres-come-agreement-jack-eichel-trade/

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

If they miss the playoffs, does the first round pick automatically slide?  Or is it just top 10 protected?

 

All 3 picks in involved in the trade slide year if the Vegas 1st is top 10