When does this team learn to win?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Casey’s bonehead play against St Louis is still bugging me.  As soon as I saw the bad pass I knew it would cost us the game.  I also was annoyed that Granato failed to pull the goalie earlier when we had them hemmed in their zone with two minutes left.  

These are the types of errors that good teams with good coaches don’t make.  So I ask when do we stop making those mistakes.  Why didn’t Casey just send the puck in deep in a tie game?  Why wasn’t DG aggressive when the team has nothing to lose? 

Obviously personnel remains an issue.  We are fielding the worst line in hockey each night.  Our defense outside of Dahlin and Jokiharju is either young or exceedingly mediocre.  The goaltending remains bad.  

Despite these handicaps we are in most games most nights.  When do the lights go on and we start winning those close games?  Is Granato part of the problem or is this mostly a roster issue?  Does he know NHL skills but not NHL strategy? Is his and KA’s attitude that wins and losses don’t matter right now part of the problem as well? Do we not have the right vets here to teach the kids to win like Drury did? 
 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

When (if) most of Cozens, Mitts, Krebs, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Samuelsson, Johnson, Luukkonen, Levi etc. grow into their talent the way Thompson and Dahlin have.

You’re overthinking it.

[SwampD]

Today.

[Eleven]

When it gets a goaltender.

[dudacek]

“ We need to accelerate the developmental process of our players. So I need to get them fast experience. The hope and objective would be they learn faster because they get opportunity. I want to give him opportunity to play against top players and you know, he's really our number one penalty-kill guy. He's our go-to guy on the penalty kill now."

That’s Donnie, talking about Mule, but he could also be talking about Cozens, Krebs, Fitz, Thompson, Dahlin, Mitts, Asplund, and others.

I count 7 Sabres expected to play tonight who have yet to crack the 200 games mark, plus Bjork and Thompson who just hit it. 

Our first-pair D are 21 and 22.

Our 2nd-pair D have played 27 and 15 NHL games, respectively

Thompson and Tuch have never before played on an NHL first line.

Cozens, Krebs, Mitts and Asplund - all in the top 9 - have less than 400 NHL games experience combined.

We’ve got basically 4 proven players playing significant roles and one of those guys is 64 years old.

 

[JohnC]

34 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Casey’s bonehead play against St Louis is still bugging me.  As soon as I was the bad pass I knew it would cost us the game.  I also was annoyed that Granato failed to pull the goalie earlier when we had them hemmed in their zone with two minutes left.  

These are the types of errors that good teams with good coaches don’t make.  So I ask when do we stop making those mistakes.  Why didn’t Casey just send the puck in deep in a tie game?  Why wasn’t DG aggressive when the team has nothing to lose? 

Obviously personnel remains an issue.  We are fielding the worst line in hockey each night.  Our defense outside of Dahlin and Jokiharju is either young or exceedingly mediocre.  The goaltending remains bad.  

Despite these handicaps we are in most games most nights.  When do the lights go on and we start winning those close games?  Is Granato part of the problem or is this mostly a roster issue?  Does he know NHL skills but not NHL strategy? Is his and KA’s attitude that wins and losses don’t matter right now part of the problem as well? Do we not have the right vets here to teach the kids to win like Drury did? 
 

 

When you lack enough talent the margin of error is small. Mistakes get magnified due a lack of talent and experience because there is an inability to overcome setbacks. Your post accurately singles out the primary reason why in so many games that we are in this team ends up faltering when faced with adversity: a lack of talent.

As you pointed out Casey did make a boneheaded play that ended up being damaging. But those bad judgments are more prone to happen when a player has not played in a long time. The instincts that worked when playing on a regular basis become diminished when returning to play after a long layoff. It seems to me that he is back to playing at a pre-injury pace. That doesn't mean that his hockey instincts have caught up quite yet. Until he has a few more games under his belt I'm going to cut him some slack. 

[Curt]

1) Talent - they simply are not good enough yet.  

2) Mitts has got to be rusty and I would guess that played a large part in that play.

On a more talented team, maybe Mitts isn’t on the ice in that key situation or maybe a better goalie bails the team out there.

The plan is for these young players to develop and grow into their roles.  

Edited February 27, 2022 by Curt

[Zamboni]

5 minutes ago, Curt said:

1) Talent - they simply are not good enough yet.  

2) Mitts has got to be rusty and I would guess that played a large part in that play.

On a more talented team, maybe Mitts isn’t on the ice in that key situation or maybe a better goalie bails the team out there.

The plan is for these young players to develop and grow into their roles.  

Agree. Dearth of talent and depth.

And a lot fans want even more rookies on the team next season. Few seasoned leaders. Actual leaders.

“Nope! Screw seasoned leaders, I want the new flavors of the day rookies leading the charge!” 😂

Tuch, Okposo are nice “leaders”, But there needs to be more next season.

Not to mention the obvious “above average” goaltending.

[nucci]

when they get better players

[Taro T]

33 minutes ago, Curt said:

1) Talent - they simply are not good enough yet.  

2) Mitts has got to be rusty and I would guess that played a large part in that play.

On a more talented team, maybe Mitts isn’t on the ice in that key situation or maybe a better goalie bails the team out there.

The plan is for these young players to develop and grow into their roles.  

Mittelstadt is rusty & he also doesn't seem fully confident that he has that next gear that's served him well to this season.  That turnover on the winner wasn't the only time he's made that blind backhand rather than try to attack.  His play like that on the PP eventually led to a St. Louis goal & he had 2 blind backhands in his own end against Moe-ray-all in the 1st period before Eakin's version ended up in the Sabres net.

Think he just has to battle through this but likely it's going to be painful to watch until he gets to the point he's comfortable out there making moves through pressure.  He came into the league thinking he could take the puck into a phone booth and come away with it because he had at lower levels.  Right now he doesn't seem to believe he can deke to the outside around guys he IS quicker than, so he looks for that drop pass to a teammate to allow him to get to space where he is still comfortable.  And opponents are expecting that & ready for it.  He has to press the play but until he's done so doesn't seem to believe he can so he doesn't.  Chicken & egg. 

And this'll be a good test of how good Granato is at developing guys.  Can he get Mittelstadt to believe he can make the play everybody has seen him do several times before at the end of last season & in the preseason prior to the injury?  If he can, maybe he really is as good as we hope.  If he can't, well, maybe he's not as good as hyped.

Am nearly positive Mittelstadt will be back to his old self w/ the off-season to rest & rehab.  But he should be nearly back today.  C'mon Donny, bring it out of him.

[jsb]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

“ We need to accelerate the developmental process of our players. So I need to get them fast experience. The hope and objective would be they learn faster because they get opportunity. I want to give him opportunity to play against top players and you know, he's really our number one penalty-kill guy. He's our go-to guy on the penalty kill now."

That’s Donnie, talking about Mule, but he could also be talking about Cozens, Krebs, Fitz, Thompson, Dahlin, Mitts, Asplund, and others.

I count 7 Sabres expected to play tonight who have yet to crack the 200 games mark, plus Bjork and Thompson who just hit it. 

Our first-pair D are 21 and 22.

Our 2nd-pair D have played 27 and 15 NHL games, respectively

Thompson and Tuch have never before played on an NHL first line.

Cozens, Krebs, Mitts and Asplund - all in the top 9 - have less than 400 NHL games experience combined.

We’ve got basically 4 proven players playing significant roles and one of those guys is 64 years old.

 

Ramble on buddy, some already know, some never will. 

My opinion is that Mitt's error was one of trying to make a great play when he should have gone for the safe one. If you check the video there was a Sabre who was behind the defense he was trying to get the puck to, alas it failed and ended up in our net. Another question although that was Mitts primary fault but where the hell was Fitzgerald on that play, he even didn't end up in the video at the end of that play. 2 misplays but as usual only 1 gets credit for it.

[jad1]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

When (if) most of Cozens, Mitts, Krebs, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Samuelsson, Johnson, Luukkonen, Levi etc. grow into their talent the way Thompson and Dahlin have.

You’re overthinking it.

It's taken Thompson and Dahlin 4 or 5 years to achieve their current success.  You can also throw Mittlestadt into a similar development arc.

Hasek, Miller, and Ullmark were all older than 25 when they became NHL starters.  UPL is 22, I think.

All these young guys deserve time to develop, and the Sabres are doing the right thing giving them that time.

But, if the plan is to sit and wait on these players' development while doing nothing else, this franchise could be waiting 4 or 5 more years before challenging for the playoffs.

In addition to drafting and developing talent, an NHL GM has to be able to ice a competitive team night after night.  An NHL coach's main focus has to be on winning games, and not developing 19 and 20 year olds for the team to be successful.

Adams needs to have more of a plan than the rookie calvary coming to save the day, because based on the normal development arc for NHL players, that day is going to be a long time away.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

When it gets a goaltender.

Goaltending is a big part.  
 

Solid veteran savvy and experienced is lacking on this team, mostly by design. 
 

Example:  Mitts has been around since 2017-18.  He plays like less of veteran than a player such as Cozens does.   Mitts was mishandled right from the start by Housley/JBot, and his development has been stunted by injury issues and conditioning issues.  His turnover, followed by his loss of a key face off, cost us 2 goals against  St Louis. 
 

Mitts is not alone, my point here is we have others like him, players that don’t know success and don’t know how to win at this level yet.  It will take time and of course coaching. 

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Goaltending is a big part.  
 

Solid veteran savvy and experienced is lacking on this team, mostly by design. 
 

Example:  Mitts has been around since 2017-18.  He plays like less of veteran than a player such as Cozens does.   Mitts was mishandled right from the start by Housley/JBot, and his development has been stunted by injury issues and conditioning issues.  His turnover, followed by his loss of a key face off, cost us 2 goals against  St Louis. 
 

Mitts is not alone, my point here is we have others like him, players that don’t know success and don’t know how to win at this level yet.  It will take time and of course coaching. 

For some perspective, Mitts has played 75 more NHL games than Cozens has (166 vs 91).

He’s not as far along the development curve as one might think.

[Marvin]

Just to reiterate: goaltending, talent, depth, injuries, and veteran leadership.  All of those are lacking.  The one which will have the most immediate impact is goaltending.

[PickaPecaPickles]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

When it gets a goaltender who can stay healthy.

Fixed it for you.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Nevermind, I just saw a graphic on Sabres.com that we had Hayden, Eakin, Bjork, Hagg and Pysyk on the ice at the same time.  Obviously talent is a huge issue.

One other thought, to build a winning culture, the players, coaches and management need accountability.  We have none.

[Believer]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Casey’s bonehead play against St Louis is still bugging me.  As soon as I was the bad pass I knew it would cost us the game.  I also was annoyed that Granato failed to pull the goalie earlier when we had them hemmed in their zone with two minutes left.  

These are the types of errors that good teams with good coaches don’t make.  So I ask when do we stop making those mistakes.  Why didn’t Casey just send the puck in deep in a tie game?  Why wasn’t DG aggressive when the team has nothing to lose? 

Obviously personnel remains an issue.  We are fielding the worst line in hockey each night.  Our defense outside of Dahlin and Jokiharju is either young or exceedingly mediocre.  The goaltending remains bad.  

Despite these handicaps we are in most games most nights.  When do the lights go on and we start winning those close games?  Is Granato part of the problem or is this mostly a roster issue?  Does he know NHL skills but not NHL strategy? Is his and KA’s attitude that wins and losses don’t matter right now part of the problem as well? Do we not have the right vets here to teach the kids to win like Drury did? 
 

 

All good questions…

When Pegula decides to open his wallet… and KA decides to bring in a few key players with SC experience from winning programs to complement Tuch and help grow the kids… and Granato starts to expect wins and coaches like it…

Maybe starting next season… My hope…

[klos1963]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Casey’s bonehead play against St Louis is still bugging me.  As soon as I saw the bad pass I knew it would cost us the game.  I also was annoyed that Granato failed to pull the goalie earlier when we had them hemmed in their zone with two minutes left.  

These are the types of errors that good teams with good coaches don’t make.  So I ask when do we stop making those mistakes.  Why didn’t Casey just send the puck in deep in a tie game?  Why wasn’t DG aggressive when the team has nothing to lose? 

Obviously personnel remains an issue.  We are fielding the worst line in hockey each night.  Our defense outside of Dahlin and Jokiharju is either young or exceedingly mediocre.  The goaltending remains bad.  

Despite these handicaps we are in most games most nights.  When do the lights go on and we start winning those close games?  Is Granato part of the problem or is this mostly a roster issue?  Does he know NHL skills but not NHL strategy? Is his and KA’s attitude that wins and losses don’t matter right now part of the problem as well? Do we not have the right vets here to teach the kids to win like Drury did? 
 

 

It's the GM's job to field a quality roster , it's the coaches job to get the maximum production from that roster. We still need Adams to get the roster fixed before we look at the coach.  We all knew this team couldn't win with our goaltending, no surprise there. 

[klos1963]

5 hours ago, PickaPecaPickles said:

Fixed it for you.

So our goalies would be good enough if they just stayed healthy? Come on. No team wanted any of these goalies on their roster, just us.  UPL is the only one that may have made in impact, but even that was asking a lot.

[Weave]

6 hours ago, jad1 said:

It's taken Thompson and Dahlin 4 or 5 years to achieve their current success.  You can also throw Mittlestadt into a similar development arc.

Hasek, Miller, and Ullmark were all older than 25 when they became NHL starters.  UPL is 22, I think.

All these young guys deserve time to develop, and the Sabres are doing the right thing giving them that time.

But, if the plan is to sit and wait on these players' development while doing nothing else, this franchise could be waiting 4 or 5 more years before challenging for the playoffs.

In addition to drafting and developing talent, an NHL GM has to be able to ice a competitive team night after night.  An NHL coach's main focus has to be on winning games, and not developing 19 and 20 year olds for the team to be successful.

Adams needs to have more of a plan than the rookie calvary coming to save the day, because based on the normal development arc for NHL players, that day is going to be a long time away.

I've argued in the past that the last thing we need to do is put more kids in the lineup.  We are not giving the kids we have enough veteran leadership.  The4 last last thing we need to do is skew the kids-to-vet ratio any more than it is already skewed.

I decided to compare the rosters of all of last seasons playoff teams to our roster this year to get a feel for how well distributed age is in a playoff roster.

The thing that stuck out to me was, compared to those playoff teams we have the 3rd most kids under 25 on the roster and have the fewest 27yrs+ vets on the roster. Of those 27yr old+ vets we have Anderson, Butcher, Dell, Eakin, and Tokarski.  So 5 of our 11 vets are barely NHL players.  There isn't a single team in the league that supports so many young players with so few good veterans.

And we want to put more kids in the lineup?  It's not a recipe for success.

 

[Thorner]

34 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

So our goalies would be good enough if they just stayed healthy? Come on. No team wanted any of these goalies on their roster, just us.  UPL is the only one that may have made in impact, but even that was asking a lot.

Also, Adams didn’t craft a playoff roster sans goaltending, regardless of the GT being the most inferior aspect of the team 

We are way down the list for goals scored, as well

[woods-racer]

No good vet is coming here. No trade clauses, rather retire, take less money to be on a contender, they're not excuses they are realities. Anderson, Butcher, Dell, Eakin, and Tokarski. These are the vets that are willing to give it a try in Buffalo hoping to be traded to a contender if they play well. KA didn't deal himself this hand, he took the challenge though. He knows the only way out is draft and build.

It's 2014 to KA and DG. The only saving grace is if the league steps up and closes the loop holes with the cap. We have a chance to get a couple overpriced vets to play here, and may actually want to be here.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by woods-racer

[klos1963]

33 minutes ago, Weave said:

I've argued in the past that the last thing we need to do is put more kids in the lineup.  We are not giving the kids we have enough veteran leadership.  The4 last last thing we need to do is skew the kids-to-vet ratio any more than it is already skewed.

I decided to compare the rosters of all of last seasons playoff teams to our roster this year to get a feel for how well distributed age is in a playoff roster.

The thing that stuck out to me was, compared to those playoff teams we have the 3rd most kids under 25 on the roster and have the fewest 27yrs+ vets on the roster. Of those 27yr old+ vets we have Anderson, Butcher, Dell, Eakin, and Tokarski.  So 5 of our 11 vets are barely NHL players.  There isn't a single team in the league that supports so many young players with so few good veterans.

And we want to put more kids in the lineup?  It's not a recipe for success.

 

We're gonna get younger too.  Add Power and Quinn before the end of the season.

[GASabresIUFAN]

36 minutes ago, Weave said:

I've argued in the past that the last thing we need to do is put more kids in the lineup.  We are not giving the kids we have enough veteran leadership.  The4 last last thing we need to do is skew the kids-to-vet ratio any more than it is already skewed.

I decided to compare the rosters of all of last seasons playoff teams to our roster this year to get a feel for how well distributed age is in a playoff roster.

The thing that stuck out to me was, compared to those playoff teams we have the 3rd most kids under 25 on the roster and have the fewest 27yrs+ vets on the roster. Of those 27yr old+ vets we have Anderson, Butcher, Dell, Eakin, and Tokarski.  So 5 of our 11 vets are barely NHL players.  There isn't a single team in the league that supports so many young players with so few good veterans.

And we want to put more kids in the lineup?  It's not a recipe for success.

 

We don’t lack vets.  Up front KO is nearing 900 games, Skinner over 800, Z is in his 8th season and Eakin is nearing 700 games.   Vinnie is in his 7th season. On the back end Pysyk is in his 10th season and Miller his 7th.  Anderson has played in over 650 NHL games over 19 seasons.  We have the wrong vets.

What we are missing in leaders who know how to play winning NHL hockey.  Tuch is the playoff leader on this team with 66 playoffs games.  Eakin is second at 50 and Anderson 48.  Skinner has never reached the playoffs.  KO has only played in 24, Pysyk 4.  I think Tuch is the only guy on this team that truly knows what a winning effort looks like.  Tuch’s presence has already evaluated Thompson.  

Of the vets listed odds are that only KO, Skinner and Z will be returning.  We need to supplement them with vets who have Cup experience and command respect in the dressing room.  That’s where a goalie like Quick and a D like Orlov come in.  Guys who understand winning and will hold the kids accountable.   

Edited February 28, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN