Kris Baker: possible Sabre college FA signings

[kas23]

I don’t think it’s fair to Levi to start for a team with a suspect defense. Let’s give him a year for our D to gel more, unless we bring in some defense-first vets on the right side. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I think you need to change your definition of a throw away year

This was a throwaway year, and it didn't have to be, because the goaltending on the whole was trash and didn't need to be.

Could they have been competitive (an NHL 0.500) with reasonable GTing?  Turns out the answer likely was 'yes.'  

Unless Levi is a unicorn, heading into next year w/ only him and UPL will be another one in a long line.

[PerreaultForever]

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

This was a throwaway year, and it didn't have to be, because the goaltending on the whole was trash and didn't need to be.

Could they have been competitive (an NHL 0.500) with reasonable GTing?  Turns out the answer likely was 'yes.'  

Unless Levi is a unicorn, heading into next year w/ only him and UPL will be another one in a long line.

I agree we should a decent veteran goalie to play with UPL but I don't think this year would have gone a whole lot better with a goalie unless it was Hasek. We weren't going to make the playoffs. In the most optimistic scenario we might have been on the outside looking in with Detroit, but that's at best so I guess better for us fans week to week but ultimately just a worse draft choice. 

From KA's perspective I think this year was only about trading Eichel and creating a foundation to build on. Tanking (in a way) was just fine with them and in the long run this will be better for us. 

BUT, this is it for me personally. Next year no more waiting, no more excuses. If we can't start moving up next year we never will. 

[Marvin]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I agree we should a decent veteran goalie to play with UPL but I don't think this year would have gone a whole lot better with a goalie unless it was Hasek. We weren't going to make the playoffs. In the most optimistic scenario we might have been on the outside looking in with Detroit, but that's at best so I guess better for us fans week to week but ultimately just a worse draft choice. 

From KA's perspective I think this year was only about trading Eichel and creating a foundation to build on. Tanking (in a way) was just fine with them and in the long run this will be better for us. 

BUT, this is it for me personally. Next year no more waiting, no more excuses. If we can't start moving up next year we never will. 

On the underlined: I think you are right, but I would not want to bet anything significant on it.

I think your analysis on what this looks like from KA's perspective for this season is the correct one.

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

On the underlined: I think you are right, but I would not want to bet anything significant on it.

I think your analysis on what this looks like from KA's perspective for this season is the correct one.

I'm hoping. I'm really just speaking for myself personally. I almost gave up on being a fan this year. I had it in my head that although I've had enough, if they tear it down (right or wrong) I can put the blame on the Eichel Reinhart Risto core group and bad leadership, bad coaching, bad management, and we can have one last redo, one more let's get it right this time. If they'd continued as it was I'd already be gone. So to me, again just personally, this is the bottom for me and the rebuild is in full swing. Multiple picks, multiple prospects, a new attitude (hopefully) and we start to rise back to where we should be step by step. 

If this falls apart I don't think I can take any more, and I've been a fan since the 70s. 

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, Taro T said:

This was a throwaway year, and it didn't have to be, because the goaltending on the whole was trash and didn't need to be.

Could they have been competitive (an NHL 0.500) with reasonable GTing?  Turns out the answer likely was 'yes.'  

Unless Levi is a unicorn, heading into next year w/ only him and UPL will be another one in a long line.

It's not, that's kinda my point. 

[JohnC]

15 hours ago, Taro T said:

This was a throwaway year, and it didn't have to be, because the goaltending on the whole was trash and didn't need to be.

Could they have been competitive (an NHL 0.500) with reasonable GTing?  Turns out the answer likely was 'yes.'  

Unless Levi is a unicorn, heading into next year w/ only him and UPL will be another one in a long line.

The gratuitous lack of attention of the goalie position by the GM really bothers me. The Sabres have a lot of young players on its roster who have known nothing but losing. My contention is that by having competent NHL goalie play on a regular basis that allows your team to be consistently more competitive and enhances the development of the younger players. Also, as enthusiastic as Tuch is coming back east to Buffalo how long will it take before the constant losing and less than competitive situation here dispirit him like it did with Jack, Reinhart and Risto?  It shouldn't be forgotten that Tuch left a cup contending team. 

It's acknowledged by all that the Sabres are rebuilding. That doesn't mean that you can't be competitive while the process is going on. You do that by having competent goaltending. That wasn't done here. And that could have been accomplished within a reasonable price as it was done in Detroi. Yzermant traded with Carolina for a goalie in the last offseason. 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/31863098/carolina-hurricanes-trade-goalie-alex-nedeljkovic-detroit-red-wings

 

 

[dudacek]

32 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The gratuitous lack of attention of the goalie position by the GM really bothers me. The Sabres have a lot of young players on its roster who have known nothing but losing. My contention is that by having competent NHL goalie play on a regular basis that allows your team to be consistently more competitive and enhances the development of the younger players. Also, as enthusiastic as Tuch is coming back east to Buffalo how long will it take before the constant losing and less than competitive situation here dispirit him like it did with Jack, Reinhart and Risto?  It shouldn't be forgotten that Tuch left a cup contending team. 

It's acknowledged by all that the Sabres are rebuilding. That doesn't mean that you can't be competitive while the process is going on. You do that by having competent goaltending. That wasn't done here. And that could have been accomplished within a reasonable price as it was done in Detroi. Yzermant traded with Carolina for a goalie in the last offseason. 

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/31863098/carolina-hurricanes-trade-goalie-alex-nedeljkovic-detroit-red-wings

 

 

Digressing from your point, but this is a sabresfan meme that is false.

Rasmus Dahlin  in his 4th year as a Sabre qualifies. He did win a WJC silver and was a champins league champion in Europe

Henri Jokiharju is in his 3rd year with the Sabres after winning 2 WJC golds and a world championship

Mittelstadt and Thompson have had what less than 150 games of it? Tage has 2 World Championship bronze medals, Casey has a WJC bronze.

That's it.

The actual kids who are just arriving are generally coming from winning backgrounds and have been largely protected this year.

It's the fans who have known nothing but losing.

Edited February 7, 2022 by dudacek

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Digressing from your point, but this is a sabresfan meme that is false.

Rasmus Dahlin  in his 4th year as a Sabre qualifies. He did win a WJC silver and was a champins league champion in Europe

Henri Jokiharju is in his 3rd year with the Sabres after winning 2 WJC golds and a world championship

Mittelstadt and Thompson have had what less than 200 games of it? Tage has 2 World Championship bronze medals, Casey has a WJC bronze.

That's it.

The actual kids who are just arriving are generally coming from winning backgrounds and have been largely protected this year.

It's the fans who have known nothing but losing.

The players you mentioned have known nothing but losing as Sabres in NHL games. That's my point. My contention is that by playing on a competitive team with meaningful games up to the end of the season it will enhance their development even more. And coming from winning backgrounds prior to entering the NHL doesn't mean that they won't be worn down by the constant losing after they become pros. Ask yourself why did Jack, Reinhart and Risto who experienced success prior to entering the pro league eventually wanted out? It wasn't because they enjoyed the experience of constant losing. 

I agree with you that the fans for a long time have known nothing but losing. They deserve better. Quality goaltending doesn't solve all the team's problems associated with a lack of talent. But it's not only a good start but also a necessity. 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by JohnC

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

The players you mentioned have known nothing but losing as Sabres in NHL games. That's my point. My contention is that by playing on a competitive team with meaningful games up to the end of the season it will enhance their development even more. And coming from winning backgrounds prior to entering the NHL doesn't mean that they won't be worn down by the constant losing after they become pros. Ask yourself why did Jack, Reinhart and Risto who experienced success prior to entering the pro league eventually wanted out? It wasn't because they enjoyed the experience of constant losing. 

I agree with you that the fans for a long time have known nothing but losing. They deserve better. Quality goaltending doesn't solve all the team's problems associated with a lack of talent. But it's certainly not only a good start but also a necessity. 

 

Your concern is a valid one. I just don't think we are nearing the danger zone.

My point was there are very few young Sabres who have experienced the 6 or more full seasons or losing that Jack, Sam and Risto did.

Dahlin is the only one even close. This is essentially Tage's first full season as a regular. Casey has played 50 or so NHL games in the past 2 calendar years.

 

[JohnC]

44 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Your concern is a valid one. I just don't think we are nearing the danger zone.

My point was there are very few young Sabres who have experienced the 6 or more full seasons or losing that Jack, Sam and Risto did.

Dahlin is the only one even close. This is essentially Tage's first full season as a regular. Casey has played 50 or so NHL games in the past 2 calendar years.

 

I respectfully disagree. Tage and Casey have been in this organization for around four years.  They have not witnessed success. My genral point is that this organization has to have a greater degree of urgency in turning things around. I believe that after the trade of Jack, Reinhart and Risto there needed to be a reset. This offseason there needs to be a greater degree of urgency and energy in adding talent to this roster. I'm not suggesting foolishly giving up assets for short term gain as much as I'm suggesting more creativity in adding talent to the roster for next season. I believe in the step-by-step approach to getting better. That doesn't mean that the pace can't be quickened. 

[dudacek]

 

26 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I respectfully disagree. Tage and Casey have been in this organization for around four years.  They have not witnessed success. My genral point is that this organization has to have a greater degree of urgency in turning things around. I believe that after the trade of Jack, Reinhart and Risto there needed to be a reset. This offseason there needs to be a greater degree of urgency and energy in adding talent to this roster. I'm not suggesting foolishly giving up assets for short term gain as much as I'm suggesting more creativity in adding talent to the roster for next season. I believe in the step-by-step approach to getting better. That doesn't mean that the pace can't be quickened. 

Not arguing the bold. I am arguing that the group the Sabres are building around is not close to giving up on the Sabres and that certainly Jack, probably Sam, and to a lesser extent Risto were in radically different places.

Their mindset was a variation of “I’m good and I’m doing everything I can. This organization can’t get out of its own way and I doubt I will ever meet my goals here if I don’t move on.”

Tage, Casey, Power, Krebs, Cozens, Quinn, Peterka etc. need to worry about establishing themselves as NHL players before they even start thinking in that manner.

This is 2015-16, not 2020-21.

Edited February 7, 2022 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

Not arguing the bold. I am arguing that the group the Sabres are building around is not close to giving up on the Sabres and that certainly Jack, probably Sam, and to a lesser extent Risto were in radically different places.

Their mindset was a variation of “I’m good and I’m doing everything I can. This organization can’t get out of its own way and I doubt I will ever meet my goals here if I don’t move on.”

Tage, Casey, Power, Krebs, Cozens, Quinn, Peterka etc. need to worry about establishing themselves as NHL players before they even start thinking in that manner.

This is 2015-16, not 2020-21.

I keep trying to point this out to ppl but they ignore it. They view this as a team that has missed the playoffs for 11 years and everyone here has been a part of that. The reality is the players here don't know losing and 1 losing year isn't enough to break them. If it is, you already have the wrong players. 

How do you accelerate this rebuild without giving up 1st round picks or prospects? Don't point to Nadeljkovic as something because he was only traded because of the expansion draft. We might be able to add 1 player in the offseason that matters.

43 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I respectfully disagree. Tage and Casey have been in this organization for around four years.  They have not witnessed success. My genral point is that this organization has to have a greater degree of urgency in turning things around. I believe that after the trade of Jack, Reinhart and Risto there needed to be a reset. This offseason there needs to be a greater degree of urgency and energy in adding talent to this roster. I'm not suggesting foolishly giving up assets for short term gain as much as I'm suggesting more creativity in adding talent to the roster for next season. I believe in the step-by-step approach to getting better. That doesn't mean that the pace can't be quickened. 

How?

 

[woods-racer]

36 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I keep trying to point this out to ppl but they ignore it. They view this as a team that has missed the playoffs for 11 years and everyone here has been a part of that. The reality is the players here don't know losing and 1 losing year isn't enough to break them. If it is, you already have the wrong players. 

How do you accelerate this rebuild without giving up 1st round picks or prospects? Don't point to Nadeljkovic as something because he was only traded because of the expansion draft. We might be able to add 1 player in the offseason that matters.

How?

 

If the covid threat continues into next season all GMs will want at least 3 NHL caliper goalies. The price for a goalie will be extremely high. So to answer your question, by giving up high picks or prospects.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I keep trying to point this out to ppl but they ignore it. They view this as a team that has missed the playoffs for 11 years and everyone here has been a part of that. The reality is the players here don't know losing and 1 losing year isn't enough to break them. If it is, you already have the wrong players. 

How do you accelerate this rebuild without giving up 1st round picks or prospects? Don't point to Nadeljkovic as something because he was only traded because of the expansion draft. We might be able to add 1 player in the offseason that matters.

How?

 

Detroit traded for a goalie in an expansion year for a minimal price. You don't think that the Sabres couldn't have competed with the Detroit offer?  Washington made a prearranged deal with Seattle to reacquire a goalie they lost in the expansion draft for a second round pick. When you sit on your hands and do nothing you end up sitting on your hands when there are opportunities to be explored to find talent!

Last year, when Ullmark was an UFA the GM didn't have a reasonable fallback position if the player decided to move on. That is on the GM. On top of that he did have an opportunity to sign Ullmark but the condition was that he was going to pay a $$$ premium compared to what Boston offered. The GM declined when he was in a bottom tier cap situation. The GM could have signed him at the higher cost without having a consequential effect on our cap situation. The main problem is not the GM not signing the goalie who was on his team. However, I do have a lot of criticism for him in not having an adequate backup plan if he couldn't get him signed. 

In addition, would I be willing to give up a first round pick in a package to acquire a player of the caliber of Tuch this offseason? As long as it wasn't our highest first I would absolutely do so. Being a passive participant when competing with the other teams working hard to get better is going to get you to continue on the long road of irrelevancy. 

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Detroit traded for a goalie in an expansion year for a minimal price. You don't think that the Sabres couldn't have competed with the Detroit offer?  Washington made a prearranged deal with Seattle to reacquire a goalie they lost in the expansion draft for a second round pick. When you sit on your hands and do nothing you end up sitting on your hands when there are opportunities to be explored to find talent!

Last year, when Ullmark was an UFA the GM didn't have a reasonable fallback position if the player decided to move on. That is on the GM. On top of that he did have an opportunity to sign Ullmark but the condition was that he was going to pay a $$$ premium compared to what Boston offered. The GM declined when he was in a bottom tier cap situation. The GM could have signed him at the higher cost without having a consequential effect on our cap situation. The main problem is not the GM not signing the goalie who was on his team. However, I do have a lot of criticism for him in not having an adequate backup plan if he couldn't get him signed. 

In addition, would I be willing to give up a first round pick in a package to acquire a player of the caliber of Tuch this offseason? As long as it wasn't our highest first I would absolutely do so. Being a passive participant when competing with the other teams working hard to get better is going to get you to continue on the long road of irrelevancy. 

I'll rephrase, what are we trading and what are we getting. 

We were never getting the Detroit deal for certain reasons. 

Also... sit on your hands and do nothing? Are you crazy? Adams executed 3 major trades in a 5 month window. 

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

In addition, would I be willing to give up a first round pick in a package to acquire a player of the caliber of Tuch this offseason? As long as it wasn't our highest first I would absolutely do so. Being a passive participant when competing with the other teams working hard to get better is going to get you to continue on the long road of irrelevancy. 

What player of Alex Tuch age, talent, and contract has been traded for only a late first in recent memory?

You're trading a 1st, jj peterka, and olofsson for Tuch

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What player of Alex Tuch age, talent, and contract has been traded for only a late first in recent memory?

You're trading a 1st, jj peterka, and olofsson for Tuch

You are creating scenarios that don't come close to what I have been saying. 

Hockey is a cap sport. When teams bring in a high talented player like Jack or any high end talent they often have to balance out the high yield acquisition with a shedding of a contract of a quality player. As was mentioned in prior posts teams had to deal off players in order to maneuver in the expansion draft. As I noted Yzerman made a good goalie acquisition for Detroit last year in such a scenario. And it was done at a bargain price. 

To be honest I don't know what you are getting at. You make it seem that it is better to foreclose trade and the free agent market (mid-range pickups) in order to maintain what you already have in players in assets. Parlaying your assets in a judicious manner is a way of improving team. That's simply my point. A little creativity and initiative in addressing your incomplete roster is a good thing. 

[LGR4GM]

29 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are creating scenarios that don't come close to what I have been saying. 

Hockey is a cap sport. When teams bring in a high talented player like Jack or any high end talent they often have to balance out the high yield acquisition with a shedding of a contract of a quality player. As was mentioned in prior posts teams had to deal off players in order to maneuver in the expansion draft. As I noted Yzerman made a good goalie acquisition for Detroit last year in such a scenario. And it was done at a bargain price. 

To be honest I don't know what you are getting at. You make it seem that it is better to foreclose trade and the free agent market (mid-range pickups) in order to maintain what you already have in players in assets. Parlaying your assets in a judicious manner is a way of improving team. That's simply my point. A little creativity and initiative in addressing your incomplete roster is a good thing. 

I don't understand your point at all. There isn't another expansion draft coming so we can ignore any trades that happened around it. You keep saying we need to add good players and suggested a late first gets us someone decent (decent to me is 2nd line level of player). I don't see 2nd line players get traded for just a 1st round pick, not a late 1st. The scenario you dismissed was what would it take for Buffalo to acquire a player like Alex Tuch (impactful 2nd line maybe 1st line guy) if we traded for him straight up, a first wouldn't get us there was my point. 

As for UFA's, at best you can add 1 impactful UFA if you are lucky. Most UFAs are not that great and they have lots of other teams they can go to, for example do we all honestly believe Buffalo didn't try to get a player like Holtby after UFA Ullmark went elsewhere? You can't just say "get that ufa" when that ufa gets to decide where he wants to go. So again, we might be able to add one guy, here's the list of UFAs for next year, it will be smaller by July 1 but here is a start, who would you target? Again remember most of those top names will never hit the market and if 1 does, they aren't coming to a team that has missed the playoffs for 12 years. https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2023/caphit/all/all/ufa

I keep asking you how can we parlay our assets into getting good players without burning those hard to acquire assets? 

What asset should we trade and what is an example of the level of player you think we can get?

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, woods-racer said:

If the covid threat continues into next season all GMs will want at least 3 NHL caliper goalies. The price for a goalie will be extremely high. So to answer your question, by giving up high picks or prospects.

With respect to the highlighted segment that is not what I am advocating for. I believe that a quality goalie can be added in a judicious trade. Because it wasn't done last offseason it unnecessarily hurt the competitiveness of the team. 

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

With respect to the highlighted segment that is not what I am advocating for. I believe that a quality goalie can be added in a judicious trade. Because it wasn't done last offseason it unnecessarily hurt the competitiveness of the team. 

No one is trading you Nadelkjovic for a 3rd this offseason because there is no expansion draft so what do you mean by "judicious"?

[Curt]

8 hours ago, woods-racer said:

If the covid threat continues into next season all GMs will want at least 3 NHL caliper goalies. The price for a goalie will be extremely high. So to answer your question, by giving up high picks or prospects.

Me imagining a goalie with a huge set of calipers in place of a stick.

[woods-racer]

5 minutes ago, Curt said:

Me imagining a goalie with a huge set of calipers in place of a stick.

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No one is trading you Nadelkjovic for a 3rd this offseason because there is no expansion draft so what do you mean by "judicious"?

Not to speak for @JohnC and I’m putting things out for illustrative purposes only, but I’d imagine he’s hoping for a cap-motivated trade, something modelled after

• a 2nd and Johnson for Seabrook’s contract
• a 2nd and Stralman for a 7th
• Fleury for a C-level prospect
• Nate Schmidt for a 3rd
• Shayne Gostisbehere for free
• Buchnevich for a 2nd and Blais
• Goodrow for a 7th
• 2 2nds for picking up Ladd’s contract
• Leddy for a 2nd

He’s talking getting a goalie in the process, and I don’t know if there is a situation that fits, but it also works for an RHD.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by dudacek

[woods-racer]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Not to speak for @JohnC and I’m pulling things out for illustrative purposes only, but I’d imagine he’s hoping for a cap-motivated trade, something modelled after

a 2nd and Johnson for Seabrook 

a 2nd and Stralman for a 7th

Fleury for a C prospect

Nate Schmidt for a 3rd

Shayne Gostisbehere for free

Buchnevich for a 2nd and Blais

Goodrow for a 7th

2 2nds for picking up Ladd

Leddy for a 2nd

He’s talking getting a goalie in the process, but it also works for and RHD.

 

 

 

 

The stars will have to align just right for anyone of them to happen. Not saying it won't, but chances are slim. Which means the odds of the Sabres getting a top 64 goalie or a top 4 RHD will mean they pay dearly.