The Right Side of the Defense: Trade Needed

[LGR4GM]

4 hours ago, Brawndo said:

And grab Luca DelBelBelluz with their second 

If he's there. Starting to see him climb rankings 

[PerreaultForever]

idk who to trade for but the LA idea seems possible.   If not, maybe Florida lets Radko Gudas go for a pick or prospect? They're pretty much up to the cap and have some bigger name free agents in the next few years.  idk. I'd want somebody big and/or tough if we made a trade. otherwise just stay the course and play a lefty on the right side. 

[sweetlou]

On 1/23/2022 at 1:01 PM, Porous Five Hole said:

Can we pry Erik Cernak from Tampa for Tampa cap space?

Big, experienced, defense first, reasonable contract, age 24.  

I think a more realistic goal this off season is getting Rutta to sign as an UFA. Give him two years around $3million AAV.  Would be good mentor for young players.

[Carmel Corn]

On 1/23/2022 at 2:29 PM, woods-racer said:

I would not be surprised if one or both of Johnson/Bryson are traded for an equal prospect that is RHD. A true hockey trade.

I would like to see this happen as part of the solution...ideally somebody who can make the jump to the NHL if not already playing in it today.  

[PerreaultForever]

another idea. Mayfield from the Islanders. 

[JohnC]

It certainly is better to have "handedness" balance than not. But I don't consider it as much of an issue as most here do. I would rather have an overload of left d-men if it is due to the fact that they are our best players to draw from. If a player is more of a stay home defenseman, does it really matter what side he plays on? And for a team that is trying to play a faster north/south game I see the hand issue becoming even less of a factor. The focus should be more about adding more talent and less about what hand the player plays with. 

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

It certainly is better to have "handedness" balance than not. But I don't consider it as much of an issue as most here do. I would rather have an overload of left d-men if it is due to the fact that they are our best players to draw from. If a player is more of a stay home defenseman, does it really matter what side he plays on? And for a team that is trying to play a faster north/south game I see the hand issue becoming even less of a factor. The focus should be more about adding more talent and less about what hand the player plays with. 

Would it not matter more in your defensive zone?

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Would it not matter more in your defensive zone?

What matters more in the defensive and offensive zone is having your more talented defenders/players on the ice. I would prefer having the more talented player adjust to his off-hand than play the less talented player. I would also carry out this logic to the wingers. I'm not saying that the hand preference shouldn't be a consideration. But it should be subordinated to the talent issue. 

[PerreaultForever]

46 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What matters more in the defensive and offensive zone is having your more talented defenders/players on the ice. I would prefer having the more talented player adjust to his off-hand than play the less talented player. I would also carry out this logic to the wingers. I'm not saying that the hand preference shouldn't be a consideration. But it should be subordinated to the talent issue. 

okay but what do you consider "talent" in terms of defense? 6 offensively gifted fast skating little guys with big shots isn't going to cut it on D. 

 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

okay but what do you consider "talent" in terms of defense? 6 offensively gifted fast skating little guys with big shots isn't going to cut it on D. 

 

You are misconstruing what I have previously stated. I agree with you that as a blue line unit you need a mix of players with different styles of play. I just don't give much weight to whether a player is more suited as a right or left defenseman. The talent issue becomes the paramount issue for me. 

[PerreaultForever]

13 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are misconstruing what I have previously stated. I agree with you that as a blue line unit you need a mix of players with different styles of play. I just don't give much weight to whether a player is more suited as a right or left defenseman. The talent issue becomes the paramount issue for me. 

I agree with you that left/right isn't everything, but ideally it is better so it is something to be addressed over time imo. 

I still don't know what you mean by "talent" though. What type of player(s) and skill sets do you want to add to what we have? I mean everyone would love complete D men good at everything, but you won't get that so in that respect what does "talent" mean?

[LGR4GM]

50 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

okay but what do you consider "talent" in terms of defense? 6 offensively gifted fast skating little guys with big shots isn't going to cut it on D. 

 

We literally only have 1 player going forward that fits this description, Bryson. 

[dudacek]

I wish people would be more specific when they talk about defensive skills. I get a sense that sometimes people are laser-focused on one or two attributes while overlooking the wide range of skills that constitute “defence”

To me, defensive skills include:

• Identifying your check
• Tying up your check
• Clearing the front of the net
• Eliminating/blocking passing/shooting lanes
• Forcing attackers wide
• Forcing turnovers
• Winning loose puck battles
• Evading the forecheck
• Safely moving the puck out of danger
• Launching an effective zone exit

and probably more.

It feels like people like to sum defence up as being “tougher” or “more mobile” when those are tools to augment the above skill set, not prerequisites.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by dudacek

[mjd1001]

27 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

• Evading the forecheck
• Safely moving the puck out of danger
• Launching an effective zone exit

and probably more.

It feels like people like to sum defence up as being “tougher” or “more mobile” when those are tools to augment the above skill set, not prerequisites.

 

To me, those last 3 are more and more critical in today's NHL, and you can add to that having the speed/quickness/vision to get to the loose puck first.

If you get to the puck in the corners quicker than the other guy, and move it out of the zone with good passing or stickhandling, then it means it is  less often that you need the 'old fashioned' physical skills.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I wish people would be more specific when they talk about defensive skills. I get a sense that sometimes people are laser-focused on one or two attributes while overlooking the wide range of skills that constitute “defence”

• To me, defensive skills include:
• Identifying your check
• Tying up your check
• Clearing the front of the net
• Eliminating/blocking passing/shooting lanes
• Forcing attackers wide
• Forcing turnovers
• Winning loose puck battles
• Evading the forecheck
• Safely moving the puck out of danger
• Launching an effective zone exit

and probably more.

It feels like people like to sum defence up as being “tougher” or “more mobile” when those are tools to augment the above skill set, not prerequisites.

 

A valid point, but how do you apply your list to the 4 guys who one would assume right now are part of the long-term core in Dahlin, Jokiharju, Power and Samuelsson?  

What skill set(s) are those core 4 missing?  What do we need to add from outside the organization?  What will it cost to get them? Will any UFAs with the needed skills even come here?

The players I want are guys who can block shots, clear the crease and handle for forecheck.  Also guys who help enable Dahlin and Power to be creative on offense as well. 

I'm looking for at least one guy Tallinder, Scandella, or McCabe and maybe one guy like a better skating McKee. 

 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

A valid point, but how do you apply your list to the 4 guys who one would assume right now are part of the long-term core in Dahlin, Jokiharju, Power and Samuelsson?  

What skill set(s) are those core 4 missing?  What do we need to add from outside the organization?  What will it cost to get them? Will any UFAs with the needed skills even come here?

The players I want are guys who can block shots, clear the crease and handle for forecheck.  Also guys who help enable Dahlin and Power to be creative on offense as well. 

I'm looking for at least one guy Tallinder, Scandella, or McCabe and maybe one guy like a better skating McKee. 

 

Would be curious to see a current list of the top shot blocking defenders per 60min, I have a theory

[Flashsabre]

59 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I wish people would be more specific when they talk about defensive skills. I get a sense that sometimes people are laser-focused on one or two attributes while overlooking the wide range of skills that constitute “defence”

To me, defensive skills include:

• Identifying your check
• Tying up your check
• Clearing the front of the net
• Eliminating/blocking passing/shooting lanes
• Forcing attackers wide
• Forcing turnovers
• Winning loose puck battles
• Evading the forecheck
• Safely moving the puck out of danger
• Launching an effective zone exit

and probably more.

It feels like people like to sum defence up as being “tougher” or “more mobile” when those are tools to augment the above skill set, not prerequisites.

 

I think you touched on parts of this but as a whole a big one is:

•positioning

Knowing where to be in the defensive zone is so important to playing d. Not running around getting out of position, how to cut down offensive chances by being in the right spot, being able to close players off, direct them towards the boards or corners. Getting in passing lanes. It is what made players like Teppo so effective.

When Trotz and Lambert went to the Isles they were shocked how out of position the players were in the defensive zone. That was their biggest job to teach.

Part of it can be taught and implemented through defensive systems but it is a big skill for those dmen that innately can position themselves properly.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Flashsabre

[dudacek]

58 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

To me, those last 3 are more and more critical in today's NHL, and you can add to that having the speed/quickness/vision to get to the loose puck first.

If you get to the puck in the corners quicker than the other guy, and move it out of the zone with good passing or stickhandling, then it means it is  less often that you need the 'old fashioned' physical skills.

I think the first is covered under "winning loose puck battles" (the fact that it doesn't matter whether you do it with brains, quickness or strength is exactly what I'm getting at)

Take Rasmus Dahlin for example.

While he needs to improve his strength on the puck, he isn't awful at it, and I see him steadily improving in his battle skills. this season, he wins as many as he loses. But he is also very good at getting to pucks first because of his skating and his reads and often outright beats his man as a result in the way you describe.

Some see him get worked physically, remember the times he got worked in the past and say "he sucks defensively"

I see a guy winning 1/2 of his loose puck battles with his skill and 1/4 of them with his strength and say a 75 per cent success rate is pretty damn good.

27 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

I think you touched on parts of this but as a whole a big one is:

•positioning

Knowing where to be in the defensive zone is so important to playing d. Not running around getting out of position, how to cut down offensive chances by being in the right spot, being able to close players off, direct them towards the boards or corners. Getting in passing lanes. It is what made players like Teppo so effective.

When Trotz and Lambert went to the Isles they were shocked how out of position the players were in the defensive zone. That was their biggest job to teach.

Part of it can be taught and implemented through defensive systems but it is a big skill for those dmen that innately can position themselves properly.

 

I include this under "identifying your check" (call it positioning, or playing the system if you'd rather).

To continue with Dahlin, I see a guy who does struggle in this area, chasing when should stay at home, or getting caught in no man's land. i think he's improved in this part of the game, but he still has a long way to go.

So when people say "he sucks defensively" but they really mean he sucks at identifying his coverage, I totally get that.

Saying he sucks defensively overall, however, I think is flat out wrong. It ignores how good he is at the skills @mjd1001 is talking about.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

A valid point, but how do you apply your list to the 4 guys who one would assume right now are part of the long-term core in Dahlin, Jokiharju, Power and Samuelsson?  

What skill set(s) are those core 4 missing?  What do we need to add from outside the organization?  What will it cost to get them? Will any UFAs with the needed skills even come here?

The players I want are guys who can block shots, clear the crease and handle for forecheck.  Also guys who help enable Dahlin and Power to be creative on offense as well. 

I'm looking for at least one guy Tallinder, Scandella, or McCabe and maybe one guy like a better skating McKee. 

 

This i am in full agreement with.

Ideally, a right-handed Samuelsson clone.

Check how well Mule's skillset matches those defensive skills I listed.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

I grabbed the wrong quote. 

Here is the blocked shots/60 as requested.
http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?report=realtime&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20212022&seasonTo=20212022&gameType=2&position=D&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,25&sort=blockedShotsPer60&page=0&pageSize=50
 

McNabb is the leader, Hagg, McCabe, DeHaan, Denis Savard, and Connor Murphy are also near the top.

What is your theory? Is your theory that blocking shots leads to injuries and is therefore not a smart practice, or that block shots is an overrated stat like faceoffs?  Are the guys near the top of the list better players then you expected?

Edited January 25, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I grabbed the wrong quote. 

Here is the blocked shots/60 as requested.
http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?report=realtime&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20212022&seasonTo=20212022&gameType=2&position=D&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,25&sort=blockedShotsPer60&page=0&pageSize=50
 

McNabb is the leader, Hagg, McCabe, DeHaan, Denis Savard, and Connor Murphy are also near the top.

What is your theory? Is your theory that blocking shots leads to injuries and is therefore not a smart practice, or that block shots is an overrated stat like faceoffs?  Are the guys near the top of the list better players then you expected?

Nope they are exactly the level of player I expected playing on the teams I expected. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Nope they are exactly the level of player I expected playing on the teams I expected. 

So what’s your theory?

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

We literally only have 1 player going forward that fits this description, Bryson. 

I was making a point about "talent" , not saying that is what we have. Jeez man, I thought that was obvious. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

This i am in full agreement with.

Ideally, a right-handed Samuelsson clone.

Check how well Mule's skillset matches those defensive skills I listed.

Brandon Carlo is the type. Don't think the Bruins want to move him but if they have cap issues for next year trying to sign Bergeron etc. maybe they'd move him for a youngster or pick(s) or let them unload another salary on us. 

But somebody like that. 

[pi2000]

I'm a big fan of Brock Faber, I'd offer them R. Johnson straight up.... and while your at it, throw in a pick and try to pry the rights to David Hrenak from them as well.