GDT - Red Wings @ Sabres - January 17, 2022 - 1:00 PM (EST) - SN and MSG-B / WGR

[sabremike]

1 minute ago, Dreams Burn Down said:

My apologies.  I should have removed his name and substituted it with "any coach."  The players have to overcome their fragileness themselves.  We keep recycling coaches and GMs, yet these mental collapses keep recurring.  Talent is obviously an issue, but, at some point, the players in that room have to develop mental toughness.

The players have been constantly turned over as often as the coaches and GM's. Doing nothing but hiring entry level guys for those positions instead of proven professionals is likely the problem.

[Randall Flagg]

19 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

At this point Donny G is becoming as responsible as the players for these games. Their mental fortitude is straight garbage. No killer instinct. 

The first few games of the season, Donnie was a revelation, and we saw what it was like for the Sabres to be playing like a team, free of the shackles of immature & bad "leaders" who only cared about themselves, free of Ralph the Terrible. 

 

The problem with that is, NHL seasons are 82 games long, and you generally wind up being as good as your roster is. Like each and every single one of the last 11 Sabres teams, their final standings position will be entirely reflective of the roster they put together, barring extreme outliers in the "character" and "coaching" department, which the Sabres have probably not ever had during this stretch of bad hockey play from bad hockey teams.

 

That's why I don't really get this:
 

13 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I’m really not sure what everyone is outraged about. This season has gone perfectly. There are signs of improvement, they are a ton more entertaining and they are playing with ECHL goalie and at least four players that don’t belong on an NHL roster. I, for one, have enjoyed this season more than the last two by a long shot.

This season is going horribly, because the Sabres are horrible. They won't have a season that is going well until they have a good team that is winning. None of what is happening now had to happen to have a good team. There is as much danger of this putrid hockey stunting development and will to live as there was of the last decade of putrid hockey stunting the last cast of prospects we were over the moon about 

[Thorner]

17 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I’m really not sure what everyone is outraged about. This season has gone passably. There are signs of improvement, they are a ton more entertaining and they are playing with ECHL goalie and at least four players that don’t belong on an NHL roster. I, for one, have enjoyed this season more than the last two by a long shot.

FTFY

[Dreams Burn Down]

3 minutes ago, sabremike said:

The players have been constantly turned over as often as the coaches and GM's. Doing nothing but hiring entry level guys for those positions instead of proven professionals is likely the problem.

If we were an attractive destination for a non-"entry level guy", then I'm all in on whoever that might be.  That, unfortunately, has not happened for whatever reason.  So, the players are going to have to lean on each other until we become that attractive destination.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Dreams Burn Down

[Randall Flagg]

13 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I tried finding an easy-to-use source for this stat and couldn't find one

scrape OT GDTs and compare keyword ratios

 

[sabremike]

Just now, Dreams Burn Down said:

If we were an attractive destination for a non-"entry level guy", then I'm all in on whoever that might be.  That, unfortunately, has not happened for whatever reason.

I just mentioned a guy who was all but begging us to call him about our coaching vacancy.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

scrape OT GDTs and compare keyword ratios

 

smarty pants 

[tom webster]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The first few games of the season, Donnie was a revelation, and we saw what it was like for the Sabres to be playing like a team, free of the shackles of immature & bad "leaders" who only cared about themselves, free of Ralph the Terrible. 

 

The problem with that is, NHL seasons are 82 games long, and you generally wind up being as good as your roster is. Like each and every single one of the last 11 Sabres teams, their final standings position will be entirely reflective of the roster they put together, barring extreme outliers in the "character" and "coaching" department, which the Sabres have probably not ever had during this stretch of bad hockey play from bad hockey teams.

 

That's why I don't really get this:
 

This season is going horribly, because the Sabres are horrible. They won't have a season that is going well until they have a good team that is winning. None of what is happening now had to happen to have a good team. There is as much danger of this putrid hockey stunting development and will to live as there was of the last decade of putrid hockey stunting the last cast of prospects we were over the moon about 

You should know, I have no belief in building a winning culture or momentum carrying over to next year. Good players develop no matter what is out before them. Next year will be the beginning of having an actual NHL roster again and nothing that happens till April will have any effect on the team’s play next year. If this team sent being compared to the last ten years, more people would be optimistic than not. I get it, everyone’s perception is colored by the reality of what has transpired since the tank. I choose not to look at it that way.

[LGR4GM]

This team is boring. 

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, tom webster said:

You should know, I have no belief in building a winning culture or momentum carrying over to next year. Good players develop no matter what is out before them. Next year will be the beginning of having an actual NHL roster again and nothing that happens till April will have any effect on the team’s play next year. If this team sent being compared to the last ten years, more people would be optimistic than not. I get it, everyone’s perception is colored by the reality of what has transpired since the tank. I choose not to look at it that way.

How do you reconcile your position of "no belief" in culture with the GM's stance of it being, arguably, THE key point? Adams has built what you deemed a "perfect" result by prioritizing the exact opposite of what you personally would have? Or is what Adams has said merely jargon?

This is all in sincerity by the way it's very interesting

[Thorner]

We really do only beat teams from the Central, eh? 

[tom webster]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

How do you reconcile your position of "no belief" in culture with the GM's stance of it being, arguably, THE key point? Adams has built what you deemed a "perfect" result by prioritizing the exact opposite of what you personally would have? Or is what Adams has said merely jargon?

This is all in sincerity by the way it's very interesting

I might not have been clear. I believe in building a team around the right type of players, I just don’t believe that those players need to win initially in order to win more eventually and I don’t believe that they are destroyed by early struggles.

I look at players like EROD and Marcus, players I was ridiculed for believing in and they weren’t destroyed by their time in Buffalo. EROD might be an outlier but he was always a decent player and so was Foligno and both would be perfect pieces on any team.

[CallawaySabres]

Not much to say as I don't watch anymore (actually I turned it on once I saw they went to OT) but at this point, I am back on the might as well keep losing train. With 3 months left in the season and nearly 20 points from 8th, it really doesn't matter. Half the team will be gone in July and you just have to hope that by 2023 season, they have enough talent to battle for the 8th spot.

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I might not have been clear. I believe in building a team around the right type of players, I just don’t believe that those players need to win initially in order to win more eventually and I don’t believe that they are destroyed by early struggles.

I look at players like EROD and Marcus, players I was ridiculed for believing in and they weren’t destroyed by their time in Buffalo. EROD might be an outlier but he was always a decent player and so was Foligno and both would be perfect pieces on any team.

I suppose we just have to hope, that while players can't be "destroyed" here, that Buffalo can't be destroyed for THEM. 

[sabremike]

4 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

Not much to say as I don't watch anymore (actually I turned it on once I saw they went to OT) but at this point, I am back on the might as well keep losing train. With 3 months left in the season and nearly 20 points from 8th, it really doesn't matter. Half the team will be gone in July and you just have to hope that by 2023 season, they have enough talent to battle for the 8th spot.

That mentality is THE biggest problem dragging this organization to the bottom of the neverending sea of ***** it's been in for over a decade.

[bob_sauve28]

Where has Tage gone? VO is injured but is Tage ok? 

[PromoTheRobot]

58 minutes ago, Taro T said:

With God as my witness, thought this game was at 7PM.  (Went to set up to record the pregame & saw the game is 1/2 over.)

Apologies @PromoTheRobot.  🍺

 

You missed the good half.

[eman]

52 minutes ago, sabremike said:

The players have been constantly turned over as often as the coaches and GM's. Doing nothing but hiring entry level guys for those positions instead of proven professionals is likely the problem.

Exactly: What's that quote again?  "the definition of a fool is doing the same thing continuously and expecting different results" or something like that.

[eman]

57 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The first few games of the season, Donnie was a revelation, and we saw what it was like for the Sabres to be playing like a team, free of the shackles of immature & bad "leaders" who only cared about themselves, free of Ralph the Terrible. 

 

The problem with that is, NHL seasons are 82 games long, and you generally wind up being as good as your roster is. Like each and every single one of the last 11 Sabres teams, their final standings position will be entirely reflective of the roster they put together, barring extreme outliers in the "character" and "coaching" department, which the Sabres have probably not ever had during this stretch of bad hockey play from bad hockey teams.

 

That's why I don't really get this:
 

This season is going horribly, because the Sabres are horrible. They won't have a season that is going well until they have a good team that is winning. None of what is happening now had to happen to have a good team. There is as much danger of this putrid hockey stunting development and will to live as there was of the last decade of putrid hockey stunting the last cast of prospects we were over the moon about 

Not to mention, teams get game tape of opponents and strategize how to counter their style of play. The Sabres had the courtesy of the first month of play under Granato's style. Once there was some game tape available, Sabres opponents coaching staff watch the tapes and develop their game plan to counter. 

[Huckleberry]

completely misread, for some reason I thought this game started 1 am my time again , could have watched 😆

[Dreams Burn Down]

1 hour ago, sabremike said:

I just mentioned a guy who was all but begging us to call him about our coaching vacancy.

Ask yourself this, if we are tanking, and the evidence is mounting in favor of this, why would we hire a coach with a proven track record, such as Boudreau?

[Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

Seriously, when is the last time a Sabre actually scored on a breakaway?

Dahlin to Thompson, just a few weeks ago 😛

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Huckleberry

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

You should know, I have no belief in building a winning culture or momentum carrying over to next year. Good players develop no matter what is out before them. Next year will be the beginning of having an actual NHL roster again and nothing that happens till April will have any effect on the team’s play next year. If this team sent being compared to the last ten years, more people would be optimistic than not. I get it, everyone’s perception is colored by the reality of what has transpired since the tank. I choose not to look at it that way.

This is pretty much unfalsifiable isn't it? I'm not sure we can really proceed from this point, because I definitely think good players can be derailed by poor development and suffocating, unbearable playing conditions such as playing on rosters like the Sabres in front of goalies like the Sabres have put out the last decade 

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, tom webster said:

You should know, I have no belief in building a winning culture or momentum carrying over to next year. Good players develop no matter what is out before them. Next year will be the beginning of having an actual NHL roster again and nothing that happens till April will have any effect on the team’s play next year. If this team sent being compared to the last ten years, more people would be optimistic than not. I get it, everyone’s perception is colored by the reality of what has transpired since the tank. I choose not to look at it that way.

I bolded the stuff I disagree with most.  

My opinion.  You get better by improving first within the year, and then year over year.   Simple.  

No matter how low the bar is set in Buffalo, they just don’t do that.  

Why?  Because the FO and coaching staff can’t ever get this team playing better within the same year.  How about getting better as the season goes on?  Like Detroit is doing.  Growth has to be measured by improvement in W-L.  The players have to get that.  In Buffalo it’s wait until next year, this year doesn’t count yet.  ***** on that, it is killing the franchise.
 

Set high expectations and go for it in manageable steps.  But go for it now.  No wonder the place is empty. 

We are playing worse now that at the start of the season, or at any point actually.  Very few players look better now than the did at the start of the  year, overall this is a wasted season once again.  That means “The TEAM” is not improving yet.   

The strategy is that next year we get rid of some the worst players and add four or five rookies and then we try to get better?  Right?  Is next year the year we can start measuring performance?  Is next year the year they finish stronger and show they belong in the league?  It’s just as likely that they stay bottom 5 with that many rookies playing and then the impatience sets in and a new coach is brought in.   That coach will likely be a low budget first timer.  
 

Wash, rinse, repeat. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Pimlach

[CallawaySabres]

2 hours ago, sabremike said:

That mentality is THE biggest problem dragging this organization to the bottom of the neverending sea of ***** it's been in for over a decade.

 

The difference this time around is that I am not hoping they lose, I guess I just don't really care if they do or not.