Goaltending? Defense? After the Whistle debate.

[Taro T]

18 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Dahlin's problem is less volume and more timing -- some of his have resulted in disaster, so they stick in the the head.  This is where the "eye test" is lying to us.

I would also bet that his zone exits and heads, shoulders, and torsos above most of the rest of his teammates.

This is the problem with not having above-average goaltending to compensate for defencive mistakes while simultaneously not have above-average defencive play to compensate for goaltending mistakes.  Because both are below average and the forwards are largely in the bottom half of the league means a lot of losses and lost opportunities for wins.

Yeah.  If they had a Miller in his prime between the pipes, Dahlin's gaffes would be an afterthought & his zone exits and slick moves in the offensive zone would be what people are noticing.

[Curt]

This team has an average offense, below average defense, and truly horrific goaltending.

Its mostly the goaltending.  Defenses mess up sometimes, even on good teams.  Good goalies make saves anyway.  The goaltending is by far the worst part of this team.

 

[Thorner]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:30 AM, Curt said:

This team has an average offense, below average defense, and truly horrific goaltending.

Its mostly the goaltending.  Defenses mess up sometimes, even on good teams.  Good goalies make saves anyway.  The goaltending is by far the worst part of this team.

 

Seems about right. We have the ability to improve the output of our goaltending and D somewhat, but it comes with a sacrifice of that "average" offense. 

We only have the talent accumulation to be passable in one area, I think, scoring or preventing, and the goalies are so bad they'll catch up to us regardless. 

[PickaPecaPickles]

Related to this discussion, there's a Good piece in TheAthletic about Granato's plan, which is to focus on the offensive development of the players. 
 

Quote

 

“Giving up a lot of goals, the reflex is to get really conservative,” Granato said Tuesday. “I’m just not going to do it.”

Granato wants to win as much as anyone, but he refuses to change his long-term focus. This is not the Sabres’ year. It was never going to be.

“I said it when I took the job: If we try to play to 2-1 or 1-0, we’re going to be a very boring team and develop nobody,” Granato said at KeyBank Center. “I don’t want guys that are conservative. I want guys that ride the edge, and with that, you’ve got to have confidence because you’re going to take hits. It’s going to bring attention to what you really need to pay attention to — some details.

“I’m not throwing defense out, by any means. I demand it, and I’m fine winning a game 1-0, but not at the sacrifice of developing.”

 

 

[Doohicksie]

Yeah, and after last night against the Ducks it turns out offense is the problem.

[Andrew Amerk]

People crapping on Dahlin is becoming old and busted. Stop running every talented player out of town just because they aren’t a savior. It’s a team effort. 

New hottness: find something positive in what’s going on. I know it’s hard, but FFS stop blaming a 21 year old on the teams woes. Lidstrom didn’t win a Norris until he was like 30, and then he won like 17 of them. 

[Berg]

Our games serie after Anderson (confident goalie) was injured... All 3 wins when Tokarski was in the net...

Edited December 9, 2021 by Berg

[IKnowPhysics]

16 hours ago, The Ghost of NS said:

People crapping on Dahlin is becoming old and busted. Stop running every talented player out of town just because they aren’t a savior. It’s a team effort. 

New hottness: find something positive in what’s going on. I know it’s hard, but FFS stop blaming a 21 year old on the teams woes. Lidstrom didn’t win a Norris until he was like 30, and then he won like 17 of them. 

Hard agree.  It's tradition for the best defensemen on this team to be the target of an undue amount of derision.  It's always been this way.  Dahlin, Risto, Myers, Ehrhoff, Campbell, Kalinin, Zhitnik, Galley, Smehlik, Bodger... toss in Regehr... all have been relentlessly ***** on at some point or another.

It's usually one D and one forward getting the brunt of the flak in good times and bad.  (Skinner, Okposo, Moulson, Hodgson, Stafford, Hecht, Connolly, Pyatt, Grosek, Audette...)

The targets are never the actual worst player(s) on the team, it's always whoever is perceived to be falling most short of the imaginary fan-set expectation, even if it was 200% on the GM and coaches for forcing awful player usage to either set up awful expectations or awful opportunities to succeed.  Player names and anecdotal plays are more visible and easier for fans to call out than rosters, systems, and usage.

And damn is it tiresome.  I literally muttered, 'oh look, Risto's gone, so it's Dahlin's turn now' about a month ago.  Nevermind Dahlin leading D in points, 2nd most in 5v5 GF/60, 2nd least in 5v5 GA/60.

Also, in before anyone puts words in my mouth to strawman me that these players shouldn't receive any criticism.

[Broken Ankles]

5 hours ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Hard agree.  It's tradition for the best defensemen on this team to be the target of an undue amount of derision.  It's always been this way.  Dahlin, Risto, Myers, Ehrhoff, Campbell, Kalinin, Zhitnik, Galley, Smehlik, Bodger... toss in Regehr... all have been relentlessly ***** on at some point or another.

It's usually one D and one forward getting the brunt of the flak in good times and bad.  (Skinner, Okposo, Moulson, Hodgson, Stafford, Hecht, Connolly, Pyatt, Grosek, Audette...)

The targets are never the actual worst player(s) on the team, it's always whoever is perceived to be falling most short of the imaginary fan-set expectation, even if it was 200% on the GM and coaches for forcing awful player usage to either set up awful expectations or awful opportunities to succeed.  Player names and anecdotal plays are more visible and easier for fans to call out than rosters, systems, and usage.

And damn is it tiresome.  I literally muttered, 'oh look, Risto's gone, so it's Dahlin's turn now' about a month ago.  Nevermind Dahlin leading D in points, 2nd most in 5v5 GF/60, 2nd least in 5v5 GA/60.

Also, in before anyone puts words in my mouth to strawman me that these players shouldn't receive any criticism.

  Dahlin is third in 5/5 GF per 60.  Miller is first and Hagg is second.  And he is also third least on GA per 60. Pysyk and Bryson are ahead of him.  This according NHL Reference.   According to Money puck he is tied with Butcher for third in Expected goals 5/5. Mark Pysyk being first.  Colin Miller has 8 points, 2 goals and 4 primary assists  compared to Dahlin’s 7, 2 and 2 respectively.  And Colin Miller sucks.  
   So I won’t bash the kid, because, well he’s still a kid.  But I also refuse to defend him.  He was first overall and playing with mostly JAGs.  Defensively he has regressed this year and has made incredibly poor decisions.  He lost the blue line 4 times in the Anaheim game alone.  This - can’t - happen! And the crazy part is he is still far superior to any other D we could replace him with at the point on the PP.  
  
    So to honor the request NS’ Ghost, I wish to single out Zemgus for his level of effort the last three games.  Not sure if the expected goals, Corsi or other stats bear it out, but he is actively hitting, grinding, winning puck battles and doing everything to earn the ‘A’ .   Cheers Z. 

[Thorner]

14 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

  Dahlin is third in 5/5 GF per 60.  Miller is first and Hagg is second.  And he is also third least on GA per 60. Pysyk and Bryson are ahead of him.  This according NHL Reference.   According to Money puck he is tied with Butcher for third in Expected goals 5/5. Mark Pysyk being first.  Colin Miller has 8 points, 2 goals and 4 primary assists  compared to Dahlin’s 7, 2 and 2 respectively.  And Colin Miller sucks.  
   So I won’t bash the kid, because, well he’s still a kid.  But I also refuse to defend him.  He was first overall and playing with mostly JAGs.  Defensively he has regressed this year and has made incredibly poor decisions.  He lost the blue line 4 times in the Anaheim game alone.  This - can’t - happen! And the crazy part is he is still far superior to any other D we could replace him with at the point on the PP.  
  
    So to honor the request NS’ Ghost, I wish to single out Zemgus for his level of effort the last three games.  Not sure if the expected goals, Corsi or other stats bear it out, but he is actively hitting, grinding, winning puck battles and doing everything to earn the ‘A’ .   Cheers Z. 

I'm not all that big on primary assists being elevated as highly above secondary, for a d-man. When it's a players job to initiate the play, I think a high secondary assist total looks pretty favourable. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

So, do we have an answer on this conundrum?  😉

 

[sabresparaavida]

On 12/10/2021 at 1:07 PM, Thorny said:

I'm not all that big on primary assists being elevated as highly above secondary, for a d-man. When it's a players job to initiate the play, I think a high secondary assist total looks pretty favourable. 

But also, I’ll take defensemen who take deflectable shots which brings about primary assists 

[GASabresIUFAN]

So UPL has given us 5 straight good games.  We are 2-2-1 but should be at least 2-1-2 had NHL done replay correctly.  Bottom line, if we get good goaltending we at worst contend and mostly earn points and wins.

I don’t know if UPL can keep this up.  I hope so but it’s pretty clear what the most important thing is for this young team going forward and that is good goaltending.

[Doohicksie]

So it's settled:  Goaltending.

[Sabel79]

43 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

So it's settled:  Goaltending.