GDT: Buffalo at Carolina, 4 Dec 2021, 7:30 pm ET, MSG, WGR

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 hours ago, Kr632 said:

What do you expect him to do? No free agents wanted to come here. A lot of players have us on their no trade lists and giving up assets to rush the rebuild is a big reason why were in the mess were in. This isn't KA fault at all. The previous GMs are at fault and KA is cleaning up their mess the right way. 

As myself and others have explained numerous times over the last two years. KA has had numerous opportunities to upgrade the goaltending. A waiver claim  Nedjelkovic is just one example, but there are others.  The mess we have in goal is on one person and his name is Kevyn Adams. 

[Kr632]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

As myself and others have explained numerous times over the last two years. KA has had numerous opportunities to upgrade the goaltending. A waiver claim  Nedjelkovic is just one example, but there are others.  The mess we have in goal is on one person and his name is Kevyn Adams. 

How do you know those players didn't say there's no way they're showing up?

[Kr632]

27 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Expect him to do?  Not a God blessed thing.

Expected him to do?  Give Ullmark the contract offer before FA opened that he received after it opened. 

Hoped he'd've done?  Taken a flier on Nedelkovic when it would only have cost a $500 waiver claim.  Or better yet, pulled the trigger on at least 1 of the 3 deals he was "close" on back coming out of the leaguewide COVID shutdown.

This lack of capable goaltending IS affecting their play.  Dahlin was a mess last night.  Back in October & most of the 1st half of November he was arguably their best D-man and wasn't a disaster in his own zone.  They weren't getting hemmed in every single night when Anderson was still available.  They are now.  Yes, the competition is tougher, but not THAT much every night.

That poor goaltending would affect their play was predicted by several of us here and Adams is bright enough that he should have & likely did realize that as well.  And that's why it's so darn frustrating.  It was obvious that this was a very likely development. 

Do you know for sure we didn't offer ullmark that deal? What if the plan is to have crap goaltending and tank again?

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I made some related comments in a prior post so I apologize for the redundancy. KA on WGR made comments about Ullmark's departure. He stated that when negotiating a contract he places a value on the player and then he wasn't going to go beyond the boundaries of the designated value/cost. Without explicitly saying it he wasn't going to go take the same route that resulted in an over-compensated player such as Skinner. I have no problem with that approach. The problem is that when negotiating with any player in a free agent status, such as Ullmark, you have to have a reasonable fallback position just in case a deal can't get done. In business you don't always have a perfect or even a good option. But you still have to come up with an acceptable option that will tide you over until a better solution can be found for your problem. That didn't happen here. The options that he took with the goaltending position put this fragile team in a precarious position. He played some long odds and lost the bet. It has proved to be very damaging. 

Yes, he put a value on Ullmark.  And we expect that he refused to exceed it.  Except the reports are that after Boston offered their deal to Ullmark, he upped his offer to Ullmark.  So, he either didn't offer him what he believed he was worth (and remember, he was designated to be their starter this coming season) or was was willing to exceed that value. 

And, realizing that he does want a "stealth tank" this year, so maybe he could/can identify good goaltending without that constraint of not doing TOO well.  (He did trade for Levi & that is looking ridiculously promising.)  But with the exception of trading for Levi and having Tokarski as his AHL guy, he hasn't come close to finding an answer for today & neither is an answer for today.  And until he finds an answer, won't know he can w/out lucking into it.  

And the goaltending situation is what had yours truly so ticked about the off-season.  Did not agree w/ the reset, but that die was cast.  It was possible to have an entertaining product without the "tank fruit" core.  But without goaltending, entertainment is hard to provide without something else truly special.  And, after dismantling what they had, we were told Ullmark was going to be the piece that would keep the kids from getting blown up.  Except they low balled him without an actual Plan B.

Guess all that was a long winded way of saying agree with the bolded.  😉

 

[North Buffalo]

I agree goalie is an issue... but D or off wing men getting back is another... cant give up that many odd man chances, screen your own goalie... against a team like that... pinching and missing... 

Edited December 5, 2021 by North Buffalo

[Taro T]

Just now, Kr632 said:

Do you know for sure we didn't offer ullmark that deal? What if the plan is to have crap goaltending and tank again?

Without being in the room speaking with Linus & Kevyn, yes, am positive that Adams didn't make the offer to Ullmark that he signed when he was in position to have that be the offer to match.

And, pretty darn sure that the stealth tank is the plan.  Which is why people are so irate in this thread.

[Kr632]

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Without being in the room speaking with Linus & Kevyn, yes, am positive that Adams didn't make the offer to Ullmark that he signed when he was in position to have that be the offer to match.

And, pretty darn sure that the stealth tank is the plan.  Which is why people are so irate in this thread.

Stealth tank is obviously the plan. Right or wrong that is what's happening. Everyone knew what this season was going in, getting mad about it is just dumb. Goalies are the way they're tanking. 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kr632

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

How do you know those players didn't say there's no way they're showing up?

Really?  A waiver claim has no choice either does a trade without trade protection.   If a player doesn’t show, that can end a career.

[Kr632]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Really?  A waiver claim has no choice either does a trade without trade protection.   If a player doesn’t show, that can end a career.

Yes really. I don't think you understand the words you're using. Saying no choice then giving a choice isn't exactly no choice. It happens all the time. The sports world isn't black and white like everyone thinks it is.

You would think with KA saying we want players that want to be here all the time that maybe he actually thinks that way

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kr632

[Taro T]

12 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

Yes really. I don't think you understand the words you're using. Saying no choice then giving a choice isn't exactly no choice. It happens all the time. The sports world isn't black and white like everyone thinks it is.

You would think with KA saying we want players that want to be here all the time that maybe he actually thinks that way

You really think guys would rather retire or play in Russia rather than play for the Sabres?

Yes, they have no choice.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yes, he put a value on Ullmark.  And we expect that he refused to exceed it.  Except the reports are that after Boston offered their deal to Ullmark, he upped his offer to Ullmark.  So, he either didn't offer him what he believed he was worth (and remember, he was designated to be their starter this coming season) or was was willing to exceed that value. 

And, realizing that he does want a "stealth tank" this year, so maybe he could/can identify good goaltending without that constraint of not doing TOO well.  (He did trade for Levi & that is looking ridiculously promising.)  But with the exception of trading for Levi and having Tokarski as his AHL guy, he hasn't come close to finding an answer for today & neither is an answer for today.  And until he finds an answer, won't know he can w/out lucking into it.  

And the goaltending situation is what had yours truly so ticked about the off-season.  Did not agree w/ the reset, but that die was cast.  It was possible to have an entertaining product without the "tank fruit" core.  But without goaltending, entertainment is hard to provide without something else truly special.  And, after dismantling what they had, we were told Ullmark was going to be the piece that would keep the kids from getting blown up.  Except they low balled him without an actual Plan B.

Guess all that was a long winded way of saying agree with the bolded.  😉

 

With respect to the Ullmark negotiating or any negotiations for that matter there is usually movement from both parties. That wouldn't be surprising. We don't have all the details about the negotiations but one story I heard is that when Boston made an offer his agent took it back to Buffalo and required them to exceed the Boston offer in price and term. (Is that true? I can't say for sure.) The answer was no. 

My main criticism for KA is not focused on the inability to signing Ullmark as it is not having an adequate fallback position if a deal couldn't be consummated. It shouldn't be much of a surprise that a Buffalo free agent would want to go somewhere else where he had a chance to win, especially after being stuck in a losing organization and facing another rebuild. That's mostly why Risto, Jack and Reinhart wanted out. 

In general, I don't think our thoughts on how the organization handled the goaltending situation are much different. And I agree with you that the organization made a decision to go through a rebuild without the disillusioned former core. Was it a calculated tank? I would say yes. My fear is that the psychology of losing will contaminate another young core to the extent that it did with the previous young core. As you well know as someone who is a paying customer this franchise needs a jolt of action before the withering fan base withers to the point of near extinction. 

[Kr632]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You really think guys would rather retire or play in Russia rather than play for the Sabres?

Yes, they have no choice.

Yeah that would never happen. Oh wait a prospect did that to us a couple years ago. 

[nucci]

2 hours ago, Believer said:

Just read Granato’s post game comments in the BN… He is saying the right things… If the team is learning from their mistakes as he suggests, Granato must keep them focused on

-Breaking out of their own zone; Attacking the offensive zone; Shooting and buzzing the net; Clearing the puck   from their own zone when under pressure… 

It’s up to the Coach to get his team to be positive and focused… It’s up to the Coach to create motivation… Results will come if the team is learning from its mistakes…

or if we just had better players

[Pimlach]

37 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

Do you know for sure we didn't offer ullmark that deal? What if the plan is to have crap goaltending and tank again?

A plan to have crap goaltending and tank again is not a plan at all.   Even YOU could do that.   
 

You say this isn’t Adams fault, that he inherited this mess.   Everyone knows he inherited a mess.  

Tell me when we can officially hold Adams accountable as the GM of this team?  What is the magic date that you have where Adams becomes responsible and accountable for the on ice product.  I want to know, and so do the tens of thousands of fans that won’t go to the games or watch them. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

With respect to the Ullmark negotiating or any negotiations for that matter there is usually movement from both parties. That wouldn't be surprising. We don't have all the details about the negotiations but one story I heard is that when Boston made an offer his agent took it back to Buffalo and required them to exceed the Boston offer in price and term. (Is that true? I can't say for sure.) The answer was no. 

My main criticism for KA is not focused on the inability to signing Ullmark as it is not having an adequate fallback position if a deal couldn't be consummated. It shouldn't be much of a surprise that a Buffalo free agent would want to go somewhere else where he had a chance to win, especially after being stuck in a losing organization and facing another rebuild. That's mostly why Risto, Jack and Reinhart wanted out. 

In general, I don't think our thoughts on how the organization handled the goaltending situation are much different. And I agree with you that the organization made a decision to go through a rebuild without the disillusioned former core. Was it a calculated tank? I would say yes. My fear is that the psychology of losing will contaminate another young core to the extent that it did with the previous young core. As you well know as someone who is a paying customer this franchise needs a jolt of action before the withering fan base withers to the point of near extinction. 

On the Ullmark negotiation, Adams made his "final" offer to Ullmark & Ullmark told him that he'd sign it unless it was beaten.  There was almost no way THAT offer wouldn't be beaten and it in fact was.

Ullmark worked out a better deal w/ Boston.  To get Linus to remain a Sabre at that point, he now needed to top this better offer.  Had he made the Boston offer before FA hit, then Boston would have had to top that offer, rather than the other way around.  Really not sure what's confusing/controversial about that.

And, it's pretty obvious that the plan was for a stealth tank.  But it's also pretty obvious that Adams underestimated how the lack of goaltending would affect the play of the rest of the team.  And it was predicted that it would be worse than he expected and that it would stymie the declared season goal - development.  And your fear, as we'd expected, seems to be bearing out frustratingly predictably.

[nucci]

40 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

Do you know for sure we didn't offer ullmark that deal? What if the plan is to have crap goaltending and tank again?

then this franchise is a bigger mess than we thought if all they want to do is lose

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

Yeah that would never happen. Oh wait a prospect did that to us a couple years ago. 

During the season?  No, it did not.

Pilot walked because he didn't see a path onto the Sabres not because he didn't want to be a Sabre.  He walked because he wanted to be a Sabre but couldn't get there.  TOTALLY different to your scenario.

[nucci]

34 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

Stealth tank is obviously the plan. Right or wrong that is what's happening. Everyone knew what this season was going in, getting mad about it is just dumb. Goalies are the way they're tanking. 

so we should accept the fact that this team stinks and will for a while longer? I don't get this acceptance of losing by so many here and thinking next year is going to be so much better

[Kr632]

Just now, nucci said:

so we should accept the fact that this team stinks and will for a while longer? I don't get this acceptance of losing by so many here and thinking next year is going to be so much better

Acceptance of reality is a good thing. 

[nucci]

3 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

Acceptance of reality is a good thing. 

Not always

[Kr632]

9 minutes ago, nucci said:

then this franchise is a bigger mess than we thought if all they want to do is lose

It's been pretty obvious that this was the plan once ullmark signed in Boston and nobody else wanted to come here except the 750 club. Are you not paying attention?

 

This is a year to develop the prospects. For the most part they're playing pretty well.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Kr632

[nucci]

Just now, Kr632 said:

It's been pretty obvious that this was the plan once ullmark signed in Boston and nobody else wanted to come here except the 750 club. Are you not paying attention?

 I'm paying attention . You want to accept this and enjoy, go ahead. I'll enjoy being pissed at this franchise and the owners for making this mess

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

On the Ullmark negotiation, Adams made his "final" offer to Ullmark & Ullmark told him that he'd sign it unless it was beaten.  There was almost no way THAT offer wouldn't be beaten and it in fact was.

Ullmark worked out a better deal w/ Boston.  To get Linus to remain a Sabre at that point, he now needed to top this better offer.  Had he made the Boston offer before FA hit, then Boston would have had to top that offer, rather than the other way around.  Really not sure what's confusing/controversial about that.

And, it's pretty obvious that the plan was for a stealth tank.  But it's also pretty obvious that Adams underestimated how the lack of goaltending would affect the play of the rest of the team.  And it was predicted that it would be worse than he expected and that it would stymie the declared season goal - development.  And your fear, as we'd expected, seems to be bearing out frustratingly predictably.

I'm not sure that prior to free agency that KA knew what caliber of goalie he was going to be. Or whether at that point he wanted to make a conclusive judgment about him as his franchise goalie. Was it the wrong decision? It certainly was because he didn't seem too interested in finding better options.  That's the source of my complaint about the GM on this issue. 

As you indicate how things have turned out only makes sense if the plan was to tank. And I have no doubt that the Pegulas would be receptive to this strategy because in the short run the contract obligations would be much smaller than if this focused on winning in the present. 

 

 

[Pimlach]

2 minutes ago, Kr632 said:

Acceptance of reality is a good thing. 

Understanding reality is even better. You don’t even understand how waivers works, so  how can you begin to criticize the GM? 
 

I am not anti-Adams btw, but I will call out his shortcomings.  His handling of Ullmark and our goaltending has been terrible and it is holding back the other good work he has done.    
 

Watch the games.  Look at the mistakes all over the ice.  They weren’t there the first month.  
 

Adams is in danger of his players quitting, which puts the coach in a very bad position.  

[Kr632]

Just now, nucci said:

 I'm paying attention . You want to accept this and enjoy, go ahead. I'll enjoy being pissed at this franchise and the owners for making this mess

Yes the owners. Not KA which is my entire point. He's cleaning up the mess of owners and former GMs. This is his 2nd year cleaning up a team that has finished last in the league what three times in last 6 years and it's top players all wanted out at the same time. It takes time to fix a mess like that. Expecting him to do it in a year and a half is unrealistic