GDT: Seattle at Buffalo-November 29, 2021-7pm-MSG, ESPN+, WGR550

[Pimlach]

Things seem to be getting worse for Dahlin.  He played the first 2 goals last night like he played the OT goal in the prior game.  He plays without emotion.  He fails to engage.  Like he is going through the motions but not having fun.  

He lacks confidence and it comes off as slow, timid, and over-thinking.  

He plays too many minutes.  When you lack confidence this only  increases his opportunity to make more bad plays.  The losing and the high expectations are taking a toll.  
 

This happened once already and they replaced Butcher with Psysk and that helped for awhile.  Now what?  

[JohnC]

What was most disappointing about this game was evident right from the beginning: Seattle had more energy and was forcing the play. They were a road team at the end of a long cross country trip while we were at home. Yet they played with more vigor. The home record for the Sabres is dismal. They are playing in an arena that is 3/4s empty while on the road they are playing in front of near capacity and enthusiastic crowds. (Not blaming the customers.) My fear is that the mounting losses accumulated over the past few years will dispirit our young core as it did with our previous young core that was dispatched. 

The truth of the matter is that there isn't enough talent on the current roster. What's positive and provides some hope is that there are some young players in the pipeline that are close to being ready to move up. But my concern is that this steady stream of losing will mushroom into a malaise as it did under Krueger.  I'm hoping that the return of Mitts, and a little later Tuch, will help to jolt this lackluster playing team . 

My big worry is that the psychology of losing infects the young core as it did with the previous core. 

 

[Doohicksie]

44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The Venn diagram of ppl who think Dahlin is a bust, or is bad, or should be moved on from, is a circle with the same ppl who were talking about Risto developing still at age 24-26. 

This is basically a cheap-ass straw man.  Stop assigning properties to people to fit your arguments, especially when they're not true.

[Pimlach]

19 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What was most disappointing about this game was evident right from the beginning: Seattle had more energy and was forcing the play. They were a road team at the end of a long cross country trip while we were at home. Yet they played with more vigor. The home record for the Sabres is dismal. They are playing in an arena that is 3/4s empty while on the road they are playing in front of near capacity and enthusiastic crowds. (Not blaming the customers.) My fear is that the mounting losses accumulated over the past few years will dispirit our young core as it did with our previous young core that was dispatched. 

The truth of the matter is that there isn't enough talent on the current roster. What's positive and provides some hope is that there are some young players in the pipeline that are close to being ready to move up. But my concern is that this steady stream of losing will mushroom into a malaise as it did under Krueger.  I'm hoping that the return of Mitts, and a little later Tuch, will help to jolt this lackluster playing team . 

My big worry is that the psychology of losing infects the young core as it did with the previous core. 

 

…. Which is why most of us wanted better goaltending.  At least give them a chance.  Toker played 3 games in 4 days and was 1-1-1.  

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

The Venn diagram of ppl who think Dahlin is a bust, or is bad, or should be moved on from, is a circle with the same ppl who were talking about Risto developing still at age 24-26. 

Dahlin played liked crap in chunks last night. He needs to spend an entire year fixing his foot speed so he can recover and he needs to work on his reads being faster. Either he does that and is good or he doesn't and is a mediocre #3/4 defender who gets a bunch of points. 

So everyone who thought Risto was still developing at 24-26 now thinks that Dahlin is a bust at 21.  Hmmm. Funny how people would be so much more patient with Risto over Dahlin?   Funny as in odd or peculiar, and probably not even remotely factual. 
 

Could this be all in your imagination?  

[JohnC]

18 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

…. Which is why most of us wanted better goaltending.  At least give them a chance.  Toker played 3 games in 4 days and was 1-1-1.  

I also want an upgrade in goaltending. I don't know anyone who has stated otherwise. Putting aside the goaltending issue last night's game demonstrated to me that there was a clear difference in effort between the two teams. I'm starting to see it more and more as the losses mount. I'm bothered by it. I'm hoping that trend doesn't continue. 

I've attached a WGR link that includes a 10 min segment with Granato. He talks about the game, Dahlin and the injured players. He seems to believe that this faltering is all part of a learning process. I'm a strong believer in Granato as a coach for this team in this rebuilding situation. There's just a long way to go. One hurdle at a time. 

 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/authors/howard-and-jeremy

Edited November 30, 2021 by JohnC

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I think that people are too harsh with Dahlin.

He is very young and does not have anyone to mentor him in the NHL.  He will be fine.  Finer than fine.

Look at all the all time great D men.  All but Orr took many years to become what they became.  It will be a big mistake for the Sabres to give up on him at this point.

He will very likely become our Potvin.  Do I need to remind you all how things worked out for the Islanders with Potvin as Captain.  He was drafted 1st overall in 1973.  In 1980 he Captained the Islanders to the first of four cups in a row.

[Buffalonill]

People calling Dahlin a bust have zero clue what  developing means 

[Pimlach]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I also want an upgrade in goaltending. I don't know anyone who has stated otherwise. Putting aside the goaltending issue last night's game demonstrated to me that there was a clear difference in effort between the two teams. I'm starting to see it more and more as the losses mount. I'm bothered by it. I'm hoping that trend doesn't continue. 

I've attached a WGR link that includes a 10 min segment with Granato. He talks about the game, Dahlin and the injured players. He seems to believe that this altering is all part of a learning process. I'm a strong believer in Granato as a coach for this team in this rebuilding situation. There's just a long way to go. One hurdle at a time. 

 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/authors/howard-and-jeremy

Good stuff.   
 

Just when I thought Dahlin was doing better he had a few more bad moments.  I am not giving up on him.  Anyone who plays that many minutes on a losing team is going to have some tough times.  

[Pimlach]

12 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

I think that people are too harsh with Dahlin.

He is very young and does not have anyone to mentor him in the NHL.  He will be fine.  Finer than fine.

Look at all the all time great D men.  All but Orr took many years to become what they became.  It will be a big mistake for the Sabres to give up on him at this point.

He will very likely become our Potvin.  Do I need to remind you all how things worked out for the Islanders with Potvin as Captain.  He was drafted 1st overall in 1973.  In 1980 he Captained the Islanders to the first of four cups in a row.

I hope your right.  Potvin was a rookie of the year winner and started  winning Norris trophies three years into his career.   He came up fast.  

[Buffalonill]

It blows my mind that some fans love being  Organ donors of the NHL 

 

[Weave]

23 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

 

He is very young and does not have anyone to mentor him in the NHL.  He will be fine.  Finer than fine.

I take issue with the conclusion here.  
 

I agree with the notion that he is young and has no mentor.  I think this ultimately affects your predicted outcome in a negative way.

I believe Rasmus has the tools to be finer than fine.  But he is in a poor situation to create the tool box and it is most definitely affecting his development.

Not unlike Rasmus the Prior, frankly.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

This is basically a cheap-ass straw man.  Stop assigning properties to people to fit your arguments, especially when they're not true.

 

44 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

So everyone who thought Risto was still developing at 24-26 now thinks that Dahlin is a bust at 21.  Hmmm. Funny how people would be so much more patient with Risto over Dahlin?   Funny as in odd or peculiar, and probably not even remotely factual. 
 

Could this be all in your imagination?  

One of you was on the Risto is only 24 let him develop train. One of was ready to get off that train at 24. I know this because I went back and checked 4 risto threads to see what was up. 

It isn't my imagination. There are multiple threads with the usual suspects talking about the great qualities of Risto when he is 24, 24, 25 and how he is developing and needs a good coach. 

So why did Ristolainen get the benefit of the doubt for years (basically 2013-2018) while Dahlin, who was arguably under the worst coach we had in the last decade for 2 years, has threads about how he needs a change of scenery. The board as an entity favored Risto and is not giving the same benefit to Dahlin. Just seems curious is all. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by LGR4GM

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I take issue with the conclusion here.  
 

I agree with the notion that he is young and has no mentor.  I think this ultimately affects your predicted outcome in a negative way.

I believe Rasmus has the tools to be finer than fine.  But he is in a poor situation to create the tool box and it is most definitely affecting his development.

Not unlike Rasmus the Prior, frankly.

The situation is key now, I agree.  It is improving, I believe, but you are right that unless there are great strides made organization wide then we can't expect Rasmus or any of the young up and comers to come up.

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

So why did Ristolainen get the benefit of the doubt for years (basically 2013-2018)

Because he lit people up now and then and actually had a good shot and scored now and again.  His errors that ended up in the Sabres net were more subtle, not glaring gaffs that resulted in clear-cut breakaways.

[Pimlach]

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

One of you was on the Risto is only 24 let him develop train. One of was ready to get off that train at 24. I know this because I went back and checked 4 risto threads to see what was up. 

It isn't my imagination. There are multiple threads with the usual suspects talking about the great qualities of Risto when he is 24, 24, 25 and how he is developing and needs a good coach. 

So why did Ristolainen get the benefit of the doubt for years (basically 2013-2018) while Dahlin, who was arguably under the worst coach we had in the last decade for 2 years, has threads about how he needs a change of scenery. The board as an entity favored Risto and is not giving the same benefit to Dahlin. Just seems curious is all. 

I know I said Risto was still developing at 24.  I remember it and I still believe it to be true.  He actually did get stronger at about age 24 too.   He is a beast.   A beast that is prone to error, but a physical beast nonetheless.  
 

I also give the same quarter to Dahlin.  I am not throwing out Dahlin at 21 years of age.  He will improve for years to come.  
 

Dahlin was a first overall, Risto was not.  I think that is why people expect more from Dahlin.   He is not Bobby Orr.  He is not Dennis Potvin.  Sabres fans expected a game changer type of player and so far he is not.  
 

 

[Doohicksie]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

He is not Dennis Potvin.

We were lied to.

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

We were lied to.

We weren't *lied* to, I don't think there was an intention on the part of scouts, etc to deceive. We were, however, sold something, and as is often the case with prospect hype, there are plenty of buyers. Everyone's individual mileage will vary. 

The tools the analysts were pointing out *are* there, but development is unpredictable. The mistake is upon the viewer, taking the "NHL projections" as fact. 

[Pimlach]

8 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

We were lied to.

By whom?  I never heard a comparison of Dahlin to Potvin.  
 

It would be nice if he just kept pace with his peers …. Fox, McAvoy,  Makar, Heiskanen, Hughes,  … 

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

By whom?  I never heard a comparison of Dahlin to Potvin.  
 

It would be nice if he just kept pace with his peers …. Fox, McAvoy,  Makar, Heiskanen, Hughes,  …

Hughes has been prone to similar gaffes of late 

[Norcal]

Of course this happened

[Doohicksie]

22 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

By whom?  I never heard a comparison of Dahlin to Potvin.  

This was typical and constant from the time before and just after his draft.  https://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/articles/article2.htm

Quote

there has not been No. 1 pick defenseman since Potvin who has merited such confidence in future stardom.

 

[inkman]

29 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

This was typical and constant from the time before and just after his draft.  https://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/articles/article2.htm

 

They got the wrong Potvin to compare.  They confused Denis for Marc. 

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

I think that people are too harsh with Dahlin.

He is very young and does not have anyone to mentor him in the NHL.  He will be fine.  Finer than fine.

Look at all the all time great D men.  All but Orr took many years to become what they became.  It will be a big mistake for the Sabres to give up on him at this point.

He will very likely become our Potvin.  Do I need to remind you all how things worked out for the Islanders with Potvin as Captain.  He was drafted 1st overall in 1973.  In 1980 he Captained the Islanders to the first of four cups in a row.

I simply don't see what other people are seeing when evaluating Dahlin. It is obvious that he had some lapses last night that proved costly. But overall when you review how he has played thus far he has played very well. What I have seen in his game is less razzle dazzle and simpler and more efficient play. He is playing a lot more disciplined game. In my eyes that is a progression. 

There is a broader context that needs to be considered when evaluating him. It shouldn't be forgotten that he is playing on a less than fully staffed team. Thus there is less support and more individual exposure. A lot is being asked of him. He is playing more minutes than he probably should at this point. A lot is being asked of this young defenseman and for the most part he is holding up reasonably well.    

[pi2000]

5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I simply don't see what other people are seeing when evaluating Dahlin. It is obvious that he had some lapses last night that proved costly. But overall when you review how he has played thus far he has played very well. What I have seen in his game is less razzle dazzle and simpler and more efficient play. He is playing a lot more disciplined game. In my eyes that is a progression. 

There is a broader context that needs to be considered when evaluating him. It shouldn't be forgotten that he is playing on a less than fully staffed team. Thus there is less support and more individual exposure. A lot is being asked of him. He is playing more minutes than he probably should at this point. A lot is being asked of this young defenseman and for the most part he is holding up reasonably well.    

Branden Tanev is bigger, stronger and faster than Dahlin.... not to make excuses but he's not good enough defensively yet to handle a guy like that 1-on-1 when he has a step on him.    It is what it is... he'll be better for it.     Also, IMO he did do enough to disrupt him... you'd expect a save there with average NHL goaltending, and in that case were not even discussing this.

Edited November 30, 2021 by pi2000