What we’ve learned from the Jack Eichel conclusion

[bunomatic]

1 minute ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Is that your jib or are you just happy to see me?

I like the cut of your jibberish

[K-9]

3 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Just watched it.

I will say that with the Jack trade behind him, he sounds more competent and confident.

I think that’s the sound of major stress relief. It must have been tough on his nerves for the entirety of the Eichel drama. And it isn’t like that was the only thing on his plate, either. 

[Doohicksie]

27 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

I like the cut of your jibberish

It don' mean nuthin'

25 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I think that’s the sound of major stress relief. It must have been tough on his nerves for the entirety of the Eichel drama. And it isn’t like that was the only thing on his plate, either. 

I think the two players he got out of the trade though were exactly what he was hoping for in terms of what they will bring to the team.

 

 

 

 

Eventually.

[dudacek]

I thought this was a very interesting quote from Lebrun’s 1-on-1 with Adams about the way he and his team work:

“And then we went through every team. We analyzed every team in the entire league and went through a thorough process. Then the phone calls. You can imagine the amount of work to ultimately get to the point where a deal got done.’’

“One (lesson) was to make sure that the work that was done behind the scenes beforehand with our staff, that we felt strongly about, we weren’t going to compromise on, regardless of the pressure externally or what people were saying. So, that is a lesson, you have to trust the work that’s been done and block out the noise. That was a really important part of this.”

Basically, the trade was the result of targeting returns based on his team vision and the work the staff put into analyzing the possibilities, then grinding to make one happen.

Edited November 11, 2021 by dudacek

[woods-racer]

52 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I thought this was a very interesting quote from Lebrun’s 1-on-1 with Adams about the way he and his team work:

“And then we went through every team. We analyzed every team in the entire league and went through a thorough process. Then the phone calls. You can imagine the amount of work to ultimately get to the point where a deal got done.’’

“One (lesson) was to make sure that the work that was done behind the scenes beforehand with our staff, that we felt strongly about, we weren’t going to compromise on, regardless of the pressure externally or what people were saying. So, that is a lesson, you have to trust the work that’s been done and block out the noise. That was a really important part of this.”

Basically, the trade was the result of targeting returns based on his team vision and the work the staff put into analyzing the possibilities, then grinding to make one happen.

I'm assuming when he said *every team*, he meant all of the affiliates also. That is a lot of players to analyze.

[dudacek]

Regardless what we think of the return, I think Adams got his 1st rounder and 2 players he targeted and felt strongly about being part of his core moving forward.

I think he also wanted a 2ndary prospect as part of the return package,  but failed to get it. Essentially, he caved on that aspect of the ask (be it Brisson, Elvenes, Hague or whatever) in the end as the price he had to pay in order to get Krebs included.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Regardless what we think of the return, I think Adams got his 1st rounder and 2 players he targeted and felt strongly about being part of his core moving forward.

I think he also wanted a 2ndary prospect as part of the return package,  but failed to get it. Essentially, he caved on that aspect of the ask (be it Brisson, Elvenes, Hague or whatever) in the end as the price he had to pay in order to get Krebs included.

Agreed.  And it's why it's a good return given all the parameters affecting the decision to make the trade & the trade.  Caving a bit on the quality of the 4th asset is a far cry from caving on the top pieces.

(And personally, expect the decision to not retain was a good 1 considering the Skinner albatross contract runs 1 year beyond Eichel's & there will be kids needing raises by then.)

[Doohicksie]

21 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

I'm assuming when he said *every team*, he meant all of the affiliates also. That is a lot of players to analyze.

True, but I'm pretty sure most of them were triaged out by the analytics team.  They didn't seriously consider the John Hayden comparable players in their analysis.  They probably focused on maybe four or six players on each potential trade partner (not every team) and did a deep dive on that subset of the whole organizational depth.  When you hear the intangibles/backstories from Krebs and Tuch, it's hard to imagine getting two players who would fit better with what Adams is building.

[Thorner]

20 hours ago, I-90 W said:

3. Being a perennial bubble team actually wasn’t all that bad.

This. 

[Thorner]

26 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Regardless what we think of the return, I think Adams got his 1st rounder and 2 players he targeted and felt strongly about being part of his core moving forward.

I think he also wanted a 2ndary prospect as part of the return package,  but failed to get it. Essentially, he caved on that aspect of the ask (be it Brisson, Elvenes, Hague or whatever) in the end as the price he had to pay in order to get Krebs included.

My money is on Elvenes. There was so much smoke there

[Doohicksie]

20 hours ago, I-90 W said:

3. Being a perennial bubble team actually wasn’t all that bad.

If you're constantly a bubble team and you prune out the right bits and replace the with the right better bits year on year, you move from bubble to playoffs to contender.  I think what messed with that mindset was the loss of Briere and Drury with no return.  I think Adams just experienced the same thing (to a lesser degree) with Ullmark. 

I never got why you would trade a good player away, but if you know you can't sign them at a level that fits with your overall cap strategy, you have to realize that prior to the trade deadline and get whatever assets you can for that expiring asset.  If you get nothing you're throwing capital away.

But when we lost both Briere and Drury in the same year, with nothing back, it set the team back.  They peaked then regressed without winning the Cup.  I think that spooked the management into tanking.  There was no reason to do that really, and we all know what that got us.

We don't know how long he will remain in good graces, but I expect Kevyn Adams to foster the approach of pruning out the bits he doesn't want and replacing them with improved bits every year until the team is damned good.  But when he lets go of prime assets he can't do it unless he gets something in return, or the cupboard will not be adequately stocked and it will be harder to bring in those "right bits."

[mjd1001]

19 hours ago, Weave said:

JFC Noone ever lost their love for the game (fans included) because they were battling for the last playoff spot.  This ***** has been absolutely devastating to the fanbase of this team.  Hell, NHL viewership as a whole is sunk in this market.

I'm not saying the 'tank' went well or I want to go through that again....what I am saying is being stuck 'in the middle' as a bubble team every year was pretty awful also.  So maybe 'a tank' is not the way to go...but how about when you get to be the bubble team year after year...you commit to a rebuild? or a 'teardown'?  I would just want something done to 'retool' instead of just being stuck in the middle every year.

[Doohicksie]

I think you need to retool every year.  You have to decide which assets you either want off the team or are leaving the team anyway (UFAs) and get something back for them, so that you are continually building.

[LGR4GM]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This. 

It was awful barely making the playoffs and getting destroyed in round 1 or just missing the playoffs every year. It felt like futility, like watching the Sabres under Krueger but more exciting. 

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

True, but I'm pretty sure most of them were triaged out by the analytics team.  They didn't seriously consider the John Hayden comparable players in their analysis.  They probably focused on maybe four or six players on each potential trade partner (not every team) and did a deep dive on that subset of the whole organizational depth.  When you hear the intangibles/backstories from Krebs and Tuch, it's hard to imagine getting two players who would fit better with what Adams is building.

This.

These guys were pursued, not just accepted.

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It was awful barely making the playoffs and getting destroyed in round 1 or just missing the playoffs every year. It felt like futility, like watching the Sabres under Krueger but more exciting. 

I guess it comes down to personal preference and perception. For myself I've realized that the entertainment simply winning more games than you lose provided was...frankly, aspirational. 

It's all I am asking for. 

[Doohicksie]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

These guys were pursued, not just accepted.

Just like Tage was in the ROR trade?

I wonder if JBot saw something in Tage that we're just now seeing ourselves.

If JBot had seen the potential with Tage though, I think he should have recognized it was at center and urged coaches to develop him accordingly.  But he didn't.  I don't think Jason knew what he was doing in the trade; he was just getting ROR off the team per ownership request for whatever spare parts he was offered.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Just like Tage was in the ROR trade?

I wonder if JBot saw something in Tage that we're just now seeing ourselves.

If JBot had seen the potential with Tage though, I think he should have recognized it was at center and urged coaches to develop him accordingly.  But he didn't.  I don't think Jason knew what he was doing in the trade; he was just getting ROR off the team per ownership request for whatever spare parts he was offered.

He probably liked Tage well enough but that reeked of a self-imposed deadline, as we all know. Dudacek has mentioned before that Rob Thomas (of matchbox 20 fame) was the intended target. 

[dudacek]

Doug Armstrong (edit, not contradicting what Thorny said above) outright said Tage was a player Buffalo wanted and pursued.

I think Botterill’s general player judgement speaks for itself, but he may have been right on this one.

Edited November 11, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorner]

Just now, dudacek said:

Doug Armstrong outright said Tage was a player Buffalo wanted and pursued.

I think Botterill’s general player judgement speaks for itself, but he may have been right on this one.

Then maybe Adams achieved the desired "prospect piece 1" and settled/whiffed on prospect piece 2, and botterill achieved prospect piece 2 and missed on 1 

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

but he may have been right on this one.

He may have gotten lucky on this one, but he didn't know why.  If he understood why I think Tage would have played center earlier.

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Then maybe Adams achieved the desired "prospect piece 1" and settled/whiffed on prospect piece 2, and botterill achieved prospect piece 2 and missed on 1 

 

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Then maybe Adams achieved the desired "prospect piece 1" and settled/whiffed on prospect piece 2, and botterill achieved prospect piece 2 and missed on 1 

Could be.

Or they liked both a lot, but Armstrong was never willing to put Thomas on the table?

[Sabel79]

16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It was awful barely making the playoffs and getting destroyed in round 1 or just missing the playoffs every year. It felt like futility, like watching the Sabres under Krueger but more exciting. 

Pull up a seat and I'll tell you all about the John Muckler era...

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

 

Could be.

Or they liked both a lot, but Armstrong was never willing to put Thomas on the table?

How is Rob Thomas doing these days, anyways? Is he playing like a Superhero or like he's feeling a little bit Unwell? 

From memory he was the potential diamond there and Tage was seen as a lesser prospect 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

How is Rob Thomas doing these days, anyways? Is he playing like a Superhero or like he's feeling a little bit Unwell? 

From memory he was the potential diamond there and Tage was seen as a lesser prospect 

Broke out 2 years ago, slumped badly last year.

Not sure what’s done this year.