What we’ve learned from the Jack Eichel conclusion

[Thorner]

I also came away with a higher view of Adams. I also believe there’s less angst between the two than I thought. And a lot more between Terry and Jack. 

I keep going back to that vid of it looking like Adams was trying to sell Pegula on Hall. I’ve been thinking the extent of the rebuild/retool was down to Adams. 

Was it really Terry who told Adams to take more of a cost effective, long term approach? That Eichel wasn’t good with? Upon hearing this, Adams tried to convince Terry to do something else? Upon that plan failing, Terry is EVEN MORE certain in what he originally wanted, up to the point of drawing a line in the sand with Jack, after? 

“You’re still against a slower approach after THAT fail of a season? You can sit” 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

To your opening, the best (only?) evidence out there to support Adams wanting to trade Jack and Sam was the fact that he was shopping them. Pretty compelling and I certainly bought in.

Since then it has become indisputable, from their own mouths, that he had to shop them; both players wanted out. Despite that Adams tried to re-sign Reinhart, and tried to get immediately better with Staal/Hall.

You may be right, he may have quietly welcomed it. But most of the pillars to support the argument that was his agenda have been removed. The biggest one was Eichel himself.

I don’t buy the idea that Adams represented a big change in plans for the Sabres. What was this rebuild Jack was so afraid of? Where was this good team and who were these good players that Adams going to purge when he hit the reset? It’s a short list.

My opinion has changed as new information as emerged.

To the questions regarding Eichel's mindset, don't have those answers.  Maybe he'll go into greater depth on those after he's had his surgery.

Yours is not the only opinion that has changed as new info has come to light.  Personally, had never heard via reliable sources that Eichel wanted out, that he did want out unless they were trying to win has now come out, and considering the source it is credible.

Still stand by the information provided by others not on this board that indicated Adams had issues w/ some of these leaders.  The info that has come out though Gionta and Rivet support the info from those conversations.  

Again, now see it as chicken & egg.  You don't.  That's fine.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

To clarify on point one though, didn't Jack say he heard about Adams' idea to rebuild, before he mentioned not wanting to be here? It wasn't strictly "immediately upon Botterill's firing", it was after hearing of the plan. 

Totally agree on the Terry stuff

That's not what he said in the Freeman interview.  He clearly states when management changed (can only mean JBOTS firing) he went to the team and told them if they were going to rebuild he was not up for that and said that maybe the team should move him to kick start that rebuild.  Then he gave KA some credit for trying to build something by bringing in Hall and trading for Staal.

When that didn't work KA went to John and told him of his plan and that is when John afirmed (SP?) he wanted to be traded.  Of course, he was injured at that point and all that surgery nonsense had started.

Anyway, I believe John said early on that he was not interested in yet another rebuild.

[Taro T]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I also came away with a higher view of Adams. I also believe there’s less angst between the two than I thought. And a lot more between Terry and Jack. 

I keep going back to that vid of it looking like Adams was trying to sell Pegula on Hall. I’ve been thinking the extent of the rebuild/retool was down to Adams. 

Was it really Terry who told Adams to take more of a cost effective, long term approach? That Eichel wasn’t good with? Upon hearing this, Adams tried to convince Terry to do something else? Upon that plan failing, Terry is EVEN MORE certain in what he originally wanted, up to the point of drawing a line in the sand with Jack, after? 

“You’re still against a slower approach after THAT fail of a season? You can sit” 

Yes, Adams has come across as professional throughout these past few months.

And one other point, the 2 BIG moves that Adams made last season both were supposed to bring leadership in addition to increasing the skill level.  He personally knew Staal having been a teammate & Krueger knew Hall well and had him playing at a high level in Edmonton.  

That he saw flaws in the leadership & took steps to address them while keeping the core intact speaks well of him.

And it gets back to chicken & egg.  Eichel wanted to stay if it would be in a winning environment & Adams acknowledged the obvious talent these guys possessed and that under the right conditions it might work.  

[Thorner]

12 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To the questions regarding Eichel's mindset, don't have those answers.  Maybe he'll go into greater depth on those after he's had his surgery.

Yours is not the only opinion that has changed as new info has come to light.  Personally, had never heard via reliable sources that Eichel wanted out, that he did want out unless they were trying to win has now come out, and considering the source it is credible.

Still stand by the information provided by others not on this board that indicated Adams had issues w/ some of these leaders.  The info that has come out though Gionta and Rivet support the info from those conversations.  

Again, now see it as chicken & egg.  You don't.  That's fine.

I think pretty much everything has an element of chicken and egg here up to and including how Jack even formed his perception of what the team was planning. I’m not even arguing Jack was necessarily correct in his his determination of the extent of what was a looming build, merely that his views were honestly drawn. Jack believed the team to be heading in a chosen direction he wasn’t good with. He asked out. Adams tried to change his mind, then agreed. 

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I am hearing you, apologies if it’s not coming off that way. 

I agree with your point about who specifically instigated the trade talk - but for me the reason why Jack did so still matters, even if it doesn’t to you: he felt the team was actively not prioritizing winning, aka they wanted a “rebuild” - and that’s why he wanted out. It may be irrelevant to you but to me it holds more weight than “these guys suck, I don’t trust them” being the reason. 

He didn’t deem Adams and management incompetent, he was against their chosen direction. 

This matters to me because as you would know I’ve *frequently* spoken about how how dangerous I believe “not putting the focus on winning” can be, so I can’t belittle that as a legitimate concern in someone 

This encapsulates well where I thought you were coming from.

I think where we differ most significantly is how we would personally frame the truth in the bolded. Your way is fair comment, my way would be more aligned with a Veruca Salt GIF.

I think Eichel put himself above the crest. That's his right, I understand his frustration and it doesn't make him a bad person. It does make him a bad captain and a bad Sabre and it will forever colour how I remember him.

I also think Terry Pegula decided to hold Jack's health and his manager's ability to trade him hostage for petty, personal reasons. Handcuffing the manager is just more fuel for the burning tire fire that's built up over the past decade. It's sad but expected. The messing with the health thing is just being a bad human being.

I think time has slowly revealed what a steaming pile Kevyn Adams was handed. It has given me a better understanding of his choices and I am impressed by the way he managed to steer his way through this. It gives me hope.

Your mileage may vary. Onward and upward.

[Thorner]

13 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

That's not what he said in the Freeman interview.  He clearly states when management changed (can only mean JBOTS firing) he went to the team and told them if they were going to rebuild he was not up for that and said that maybe the team should move him to kick start that rebuild.  Then he gave KA some credit for trying to build something by bringing in Hall and trading for Staal.

When that didn't work KA went to John and told him of his plan and that is when John afirmed (SP?) he wanted to be traded.  Of course, he was injured at that point and all that surgery nonsense had started.

Anyway, I believe John said early on that he was not interested in yet another rebuild.

No, that’s not what he said. He didn’t say “if you are going to rebuild” 

He said he HEARD it was GOING to be a rebuild. Those aren’t the same thing 

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Yes, Adams has come across as professional throughout these past few months.

And one other point, the 2 BIG moves that Adams made last season both were supposed to bring leadership in addition to increasing the skill level.  He personally knew Staal having been a teammate & Krueger knew Hall well and had him playing at a high level in Edmonton.  

That he saw flaws in the leadership & took steps to address them while keeping the core intact speaks well of him.

And it gets back to chicken & egg.  Eichel wanted to stay if it would be in a winning environment & Adams acknowledged the obvious talent these guys possessed and that under the right conditions it might work.  

His talent evaluation in said moves doesn’t speak quite as well 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Words ...

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, that’s not what he said. He didn’t say “if you are going to rebuild” 

He said he HEARD it was GOING to be a rebuild. Those aren’t the same thing 

His talent evaluation in said moves doesn’t speak quite as well 

True.

[JohnC]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’ve done a lot of reading and listening since Thursday and have come to some definite conclusions about a handful of items we extensively debated in the Eichel speculation thread.

1 Trading Jack Eichel was not Kevyn Adams’ idea.

Straight from Jack’s mouth, in the immediate wake of Jason Botterill being fired he went to the team and said I can’t handle more rebuilding, if you’re going to reset, trade me to fuel your reset. The Taylor Hall/Eric Staal thing was an attempt to change his mind, but the idea was Jack’s.

2 Terry Pegula put restrictions on what Adams could do in terms of handling the Eichel situation.

Some people maintained the Sabres could not authorize ADR for purely medical or insurance reasons. I say the fact that the Knights are authorizing it as evidence that is simply not the case. I can’t see why the exact same options available to the Knights were not available to the Sabres. Both Sidney Crosby and Connor McDavid underwent treatments different than that recommended by their team’s medical staff based on building a case of supporting evidence in the same fashion Eichel did. Someone chose not to agree, and I believe that someone, logically, was Terry.

I also believe that Adams inability to consider salary retention in an Eichel deal was a mandate directly from ownership. It has been reported by several insiders that this situation got nasty. Yet neither Eichel, nor Adams seemed to have anything other than positive words for the other. The “nasty,” I think came between an owner who felt betrayed by his former golden child and the golden child who was not used to be told “no.” I think Terry was determined that once Jack was gone, he was not going to see another dime.

Finally, I think Terry was perfectly willing to hang on forever if that’s what it took for the right offer to come through. He was determined he was not going to end up with another ROR deal and had instructed Adams to do exactly that.

3) Kevyn Adams earned my respect

I don’t think he got fair value for Eichel, but I also don’t think he ever was. He got a good, young  NHL player under contract for term, at a position of need. And, almost as important, that player is a walking ad for being happy to be a Buffalo Sabre. He also got probably the best centre prospect he was ever going to get, with the added bonus of that player fitting the “Sabre” mould he is trying to create. And he got two lottery tickets without adding a cent of bad cap.

I think he was placed in an exceedingly difficult situation yet still may have emerged with viable pieces for his rebuild as well as a modicum of respect from his peers and his fan base. Time will tell, as always, but he did far better than I thought he was going to.

Again, I am so glad this is over. Looking forward to seeing how the pieces come together, with increased confidence in the hand at the wheel.

 

 

This is a well thought out and written analysis. 

Where I disagree with your take is that with respect to the course of treatment there was a genuine disagreement between the two parties. The medical experts for each side simply had different medical judgments regarding which procedure was most appropriate. In my view this is simply was a case of medical professionals disagreeing.  You can't fault the organization for relying on the medical opinion of their expert/s; and you can't fault the player and his camp for being more receptive to the views of their medical experts, especially when the timeframe for healing is much different for each procedure. 

The more information that comes out the more apparent it becomes that Jack wanted out. He felt that he was stuck in a situation with the prospect of a dismal future. I understand his stance and I'm not critical of it. Considering where the franchise was from a competitive standpoint this breakup was inevitable. 

As you astutely noted looking back KA handled this situation wisely. It took a lot of fortitude to be patient and hold out until he got what he considered the best deal he could in this high stakes situation. The return he got certainly fits in well with his rebuilding strategy. 

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No, that’s not what he said. He didn’t say “if you are going to rebuild” 

He said he HEARD it was GOING to be a rebuild. Those aren’t the same thing 

His talent evaluation in said moves doesn’t speak quite as well 

He did say that he heard rumours and grumblings, but obviously not from KA or anyone with the team.  

He went to the team and said if they were going that route he does not want to be part of it.

This was in 2020 right after JBOT was fired.

I just relistened to the first bit of the interview

Your point on talent evaluation is spot on and hilarious.  lol !!

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by The Ghost of Doohickie

[Thorner]

@dudacekwe are dangerously close to splitting hairs, here. 

Do you believe Jack felt the team to not be putting the proper impetus on winning, as he stated, or do you believe he didn’t actually think it a rebuild, and that he was just wholly convinced the group was not capable of winning? 

It’s pretty much the last sticking point. Both stem from disbelief in the organization so they really are actually very close. I’m just choosing to believe Jack when he gave his reasons for why he thought and wanted what he did. 

1 minute ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

He did say that he heard rumours and grumblings, but obviously not from KA or anyone with the team.  

He went to the team and said if they were going that route he does not want to be part of it.

This was in 2020 right after JBOT was fired.

 

He didn’t say this either 

Again, it comes down to whether you believe Jack was telling the truth that HE believed the team was heading for a “rebuild”. I see no reason to think he’s lying. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

@dudacekwe are dangerously close to splitting hairs, here. 

Do you believe Jack felt the team to not be putting the proper impetus on winning, as he stated, or do you believe he didn’t actually think it a rebuild, and that he was just wholly convinced the group was not capable of winning? 

It’s pretty much the last sticking point. Both stem from disbelief in the organization so they really are actually very close. I’m just choosing to believe Jack when he gave his reasons for why he thought and wanted what he did. 

He didn’t say this either 

He did say he heard grumblings.  The obvious observation is mine.

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

He did say he heard grumblings.  The obvious observation is mine.

To think he didn’t draw his opinion from speaking with management, after all the communication they had to have had over the year, isn’t something I can’t get to. 

He either felt it was a looming rebuild, or he’s lying 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thorny

[inkman]

Y’all have a lot more time and energy than I do

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

@dudacekwe are dangerously close to splitting hairs, here. 

Do you believe Jack felt the team to not be putting the proper impetus on winning, as he stated, or do you believe he didn’t actually think it a rebuild, and that he was just wholly convinced the group was not capable of winning? 

It’s pretty much the last sticking point. Both stem from disbelief in the organization so they really are actually very close. I’m just choosing to believe Jack when he gave his reasons for why he thought and wanted what he did.  

Great question. Can't both be true?

I think he ended the 2020 season — one where he personally did everything he could —seriously doubting that this organization was capable of winning.
I think the Botterill firing and any subsequent info he got on the team's direction in the wake of that firing, pushed him over the edge. Think back to the way that firing was greeted in the hockey world and Jack observing it.

I think you might be parsing a precision to Jack's words in the Friedman interview that maybe they don't deserve.

[Thorner]

23 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Great question. Can't both be true?

I think he ended the 2020 season — one where he personally did everything he could —seriously doubting that this organization was capable of winning.
I think the Botterill firing and any subsequent info he got on the team's direction in the wake of that firing, pushed him over the edge. Think back to the way that firing was greeted in the hockey world and Jack observing it.

I think you might be parsing a precision to Jack's words in the Friedman interview that maybe they don't deserve.

I do believe both things are true, in the way you laid out. 

But the alternative to not putting stock in the words Jack used is to guess at their meaning. I understand the root of your point - Jack was so fed up with the franchise’s losing ways that, regardless of what he perceived to be their “new strategy” going forward, there’s every chance he was going to adjudge it to be folly. Jack was biased. Of course that’s true. 

But I don’t believe my sticking point is a trivial one - I think Jack said “rebuild” because he came to the conclusion in his mind that that was what they were doing. The reasons for why he felt that way, at all, can be stooped in personal bias but it doesn’t change the fact that in his mind he felt he had a disagreement with the course of action. 

Whether or not the franchise could *ever* have come to him with a strategy he felt was good can indeed be questioned, but in his mind he believes staying was a hypothetical option based on the chosen course of action. 

Maybe in his heart of hearts, he actually doesn’t think it was going to be a rebuild, or he knows he was going to ask out regardless, but he said he felt it was. That’s what I’ll believe.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thorny

[Gabrielor]

1. Don't label anyone a savior.

2.Don't give 80 million dollar contracts well-before they're earned.

3.I know it's a marketing thing, but don't force the captaincy on your best player, just because they're your best player.

[Ogelthorpe]

We have learned that John is a selfish POS. He was a locker room cancer and a miserable person. We learned he is the antithesis of what being a leader is. John will never win a thing in the NHL or the Olympics. My prediction is he burns the Knights down and we get their 2023 lottery pick. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Ogelthorpe
Spelling

[Thorner]

Back to regularly scheduled programming 

[Believer]

1 minute ago, Ogelthorpe said:

We have learned that John is a selfish POS. He was a locker room cancer and a miserable person. We learned he is the antithesis of what being a leader is. John will never win a thing in the NHL or the Olympics. My prediction is he burns the Knights down and we get their 2023 lottery pick. 

Agree with your read on the kid… Will be interesting to see his impact on the Knights if he returns to form after his surgery… Even if he does, doubt the kid has the character to survive the temptations of Las Vegas… My bet is he washes out… or crashes and burns before he turns 30… But he got his trade… and he has his dough… Like the rest of us… up to him to make good choices… 

[inkman]

14 minutes ago, Ogelthorpe said:

We have learned that John is a selfish POS. He was a locker room cancer and a miserable person. We learned he is the antithesis of what being a leader is. John will never win a thing in the NHL or the Olympics. My prediction is he burns the Knights down and we get their 2023 lottery pick. 

 

@DarthEbriate

[Indabuff]

CliffsNotes:  Fire Terry!

[SDS]

13 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Back to regularly scheduled programming 

I don't think I have seen a comment by you regarding Rivet, Peters and Gionta.

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, SDS said:

I don't think I have seen a comment by you regarding Rivet, Peters and Gionta.

Literally no one cared when I posted glowing comments from Gionta on Jack and his leadership ability a few weeks back, when it was being claimed Gionta’s “silence” on Jack had been damning - so admittedly I don’t feel much of a pull to reciprocate 

There was also plenty of talk that KA must have a poor read on Jack’s character based on his decision to trade him, and in a thread dedicated to saying the trade desire was fully Jack’s, I don’t see much walking down from the “KA moved Jack cause he’s a cancer” line of thinking, so, YMMV

Edited November 9, 2021 by Thorny