Potential Sabres deadline moves(sellers)…

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

And there in lies the problem with your entire take on this. 

What trade capital are you referring too? 

Tons of extra draft picks and tons of cap space.  If your right, KA should have at a minimum be able to utilize the cap space to enhance the team.  Since about 75% of the players lack any form of NMC/NTC, there has to be someone KA could acquire to enhance the D at the deadline or next off-season.

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Tons of extra draft picks and tons of cap space.  If your right, KA should have at a minimum be able to utilize the cap space to enhance the team.  Since about 75% of the players lack any form of NMC/NTC, there has to be someone KA could acquire to enhance the D at the deadline or next off-season.

I wouldn't trade any 1st or 2nd round picks for anyone who isn't 22 or younger. 

I think he should try and weaponize the cap for at least 1 move this offseason or deadline 

[thewookie1]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Tons of extra draft picks and tons of cap space.  If your right, KA should have at a minimum be able to utilize the cap space to enhance the team.  Since about 75% of the players lack any form of NMC/NTC, there has to be someone KA could acquire to enhance the D at the deadline or next off-season.

Last I checked, teams buy rentals to go to the playoffs and sell off players when they aren't.

Trading our "extra assets" to acquire quick fixes will only repeat what TM did during his tenure. 

I'm not trading a late 1st to get a somewhat better goalie; goalies are one of the least consistent positions in the league and you can just as easily find the next star as you can the next piece of Swiss Cheese.

There isn't a team in the league that will offer us a good enough RHD to be worth the risk. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I wouldn't trade any 1st or 2nd round picks for anyone who isn't 22 or younger. 

I think he should try and weaponize the cap for at least 1 move this offseason or deadline 

I don't disagree on the 1st rd picks, but I disagree on the 2nds.  It depends on what is being offered.  If I can get a Toni Lydman type player who is 25 to 27, I trade a 2nd for him in a heartbeat. (DR gave a 4th for Lydman who was 27 when acquired).  To me a 2nd in 2023 is a player who has a 25% chance of being an NHLer in 2-5 years from being drafted.  I rather have a player then can help now.

Also we are going to need 15-17 million in contracts just to get to the floor next season.  Even if we sign VO for $5 mill, we'll still need 10-12.  KA has to get to something for that money (not a Butcher :)).  As I been saying for a year, get a goalie and one or two good stay at home D to get us to the floor.  If KA weaponizes the cap space to go beyond the floor I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Edited January 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Last I checked, teams buy rentals to go to the playoffs and sell off players when they aren't.

Trading our "extra assets" to acquire quick fixes will only repeat what TM did during his tenure. 

I'm not trading a late 1st to get a somewhat better goalie; goalies are one of the least consistent positions in the league and you can just as easily find the next star as you can the next piece of Swiss Cheese.

There isn't a team in the league that will offer us a good enough RHD to be worth the risk. 

While I agree that TM over did it in the trade department, I do believe that we are at the point where we need some help to fix holes that our prospects group isn't providing.  

As to enhancing the team at the deadline, I also agree that it's difficult, but not impossible.  One of the hallmarks of the Crosby era in Pittsburgh is that they had a multi season approach to the trade deadline.  Two examples (but there are others), Chris Kunitz was a deadline acquisition in 2009 and then played the next 8 years for the Pens and Erod went there at the deadline in 2020 and has now been a fixture in their lineup for the last 2 seasons.  The RHD will be hard to come by at the deadline, but there are teams who will need cap space to make deals at the deadline and who knows what might shake loose.

 

[thewookie1]

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2023/points/all/defense/ufa/desc/right

Here's all the UFA right-handed defensemen. Aside Letang who'd I would give 2x9mil to come here; there isn't much in terms of useful Top 4 Dmen who aren't what we already have or literally who we already have/had.

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active/2022/points/all/defense/ufa/desc/right?limits=age-20-35

Here's all active Righty Dmen

There are very few that would be useful and could potentially shake loose. 

For instance Barrie wouldn't be a good fit because he's a turn style defensively.

Klingberg is too old to throw money at.

Etc

Edited January 19, 2022 by thewookie1

[GASabresIUFAN]

7 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2023/points/all/defense/ufa/desc/right

Here's all the UFA right-handed defensemen. Aside Letang who'd I would give 2x9mil to come here; there isn't much in terms of useful Top 4 Dmen who aren't what we already have or literally who we already have/had.

 

I'd take Klingberg or Josh Manson.  I also give Justin Braun a 1 year deal.  That said, I think the more likely route is taking someone with a year or two left on their deal who a team may part with to stay cap compliant.  For example someone like Orlov or even Scandella.  I want the veteran leadership on the backend to mentor Dahlin, Samuelsson and Power but who can still play hockey.  Admittedly these are deals are more likely this coming off-season, but there maybe one possible at the deadline.

Edited January 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

Jan Rutta

28 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't disagree on the 1st rd picks, but I disagree on the 2nds.  It depends on what is being offered.  If I can get a Toni Lydman type player who is 25 to 27, I trade a 2nd for him in a heartbeat. (DR gave a 4th for Lydman who was 27 when acquired).  To me a 2nd in 2023 is a player who has a 25% chance of being an NHLer in 2-5 years from being drafted.  I rather have a player then can help now.

Also we are going to need 15-17 million in contracts just to get to the floor next season.  Even if we sign VO for $5 mill, we'll still need 10-12.  KA has to get to something for that money (not a Butcher :)).  As I been saying for a year, get a goalie and one or two good stay at home D to get us to the floor.  If KA weaponizes the cap space to go beyond the floor I'll be pleasantly surprised.

I don't think you can get those players for only a 2nd

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

,Zero results yet from the hockey department he assembled less than a year ago?

Zero results yet from the 6 1sts and 6 2nds he acquired for the 21-23 drafts?

Zero results yet from his slow cook player development focus and strategy a half-season in?

Zero results yet from his sign cheap pending UFAs/maximize cap space strategy prior to its first trade deadline and off-season?

Zero results yet from a season that was clearly always planned to be about development?

Shocking.

 

Quibble here but the off-season coming is at least the 2nd offseason where the current plan was mapping the direction

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

LOL, LMAO.  This wasn't a strategy, it was mandatory cost containment issued to him by TP/KP.  Nice spin though.

Slow cook prospect development strategy has been in place since Jbot was GM.  Fitzgerald, UPL, Laaksonen, Murray, Bryson, Asplund, Borgen, even VO, these are all guys Jbot or TM acquired that Jbot allowed to develop slowly in Europe or CHL or in Rochester.  It was Jbot who sent UPL to the CHL and then placed him in the ECHL and then Rochester.  It was Jbot who signed Murray and placed him Rochester.  Nice try.  PS Even Mitts and Thompson were sent down to get their games straight and that has made a huge difference.  

As to the future picks, that is a lottery.  We've tried that strategy before and failed.  Maybe KA's crew will get it right, maybe.  However, he had 2 first and 2 seconds and 3/4 of those picks are struggling post draft.  Not a ringing endorsement for his Russia centric analytic approach.  He seemed to make better draft decisions in his first draft with the team Jbot had in place when he took Quinn and JJP. 

Agree much of the current ranks are Botterill’s, but Quinn is undoubtedly all Adams. Botterill had Rossi and Adams looked frankly overjoyed to select Quinn 

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Insert Jennifer Lawrence GIF here.

Not sure why you continue to pursue the narrative the Adams is trying to win this year when all evidence is to the contrary.

Well? 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Thorny

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

There are a number of flaws in @GASabresIUFAN's post, some of which he's repeated from prior posts (e.g. blaming KA for giving Hall a NMC is silly and the linkage of the Butcher deals with the failure to bring in a goalie is baseless; also, failing to replace Hutton is a strange way to describe the real issue, which is the failure to bring in real NHL goaltending), but I think his overall point is fair and correct:  the team is losing much more than is healthy for the development of the new generation, and it didn't need to be this way.

As I've been saying for years:  losing begets losing.  This team looks like a bottom-5 team and perhaps worse than that.  Does anyone think they will just flip a switch next year when Power and Quinn are here and delete the loser mindset from their operating system?

KA is accountable for the failure to bring in a real goalie in either of his 2 offseasons, and for icing terrible teams that lost game after game.  He's also accountable for hiring DM, whom I like but on whom the jury is very much still out.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the new generation can do in the rest of this season and next, but I think KA has made it harder than it needed to be.

Gotta agree here. The other side gets all the “likes”, and it’s well-drawn indeed, but @GASabresIUFANis doing a good job providing balance.

Thread is a great read

Also - there may not be a problem with giving Hall a NMC but there’s certainly a link from signing Hall to not locking up Reinhart

Edited January 19, 2022 by Thorny

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Quote

There was no way to win this year

There was certainly a way to win more. I think that’s GA’s point. Your post is excellent overall but my frustration with that side overall would be the claim that not only is what Adams doing adequate, that it was his only avenue of choice. The claim that this was the ONLY way to do it is the disingenuous part and @Taro T has done a better job than I could ever do explaining why

Edited January 19, 2022 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

What makes LaFontaine more of a good pick for senior guy in charge of hierarchy over Kevyn Adams?

I'm talking about putting a guy like Rick Dudley in that position. LaFontaine is just the point where they abandoned that idea and went with just a GM when most teams were doing the exact opposite (and still are). 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Boychuk was acquired when we fell under the cap floor once Eichel was traded to get us back to the floor.  Again, KA has another opportunity to add talent to the roster and choose the one move that add cap $ but at a bargain real $ price (500k).  To me this is more evidence of the mandate.  

I guess I just don't believe anything coming out of a GM's mouth.  They are the politicians of the sports world.  KA talks about only getting players that want to be here.  Sounds great as a soundbite but is ultimately BS.  UFAs go two places, places they have a chance to win or where they can get the biggest $ (or the only places willing to give them more NHL time).  Until we field a good team, no big name UFA is coming here and that doesn't work anyway.   The same applies to players with NMC/NTCs.  (Although only 24% of NHL players have NTC/NMCs and of those 90% are limited in some fashion)

We have trade capital and KA hasn't used it.  My argument has always been that he should be using some of that capital to enhance the goaltending and enhance the defensive skill of the D group.  

@Weave - Butcher was traded here, he didn't have a choice.  When he was a UDFA out of college, he refused to sign here just like Vesey.  

One other note.  PLF should have never been hired and should have never been empowered to choose the first GM.  He was about as qualified to be a team President as KA was to be a GM.

It bears a bit of discussion in that a lot of focus is given to the “players” side of the “players who want to be here” equation but little to the “here” portion. As if Adams is somehow powerless in being adherent to this CHOSEN strategy. Even if we all agree it’s how Adams SHOULD approach the roster, the “here” side of the equation still represents an avenue for potential manipulation. 

If “here” was a place where more winning happened, perhaps the mindset of those Players would change.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Of course you don't because as many as 7 of the forwards aren't in place yet. It took Carolina 4 drafts to get where they are and they continued to draft well after that. You could argue 5 drafts to get there but we will go with 4, 2015-2019 and the guys they drafted who didn't fit the system or they thought they could upgrade they traded. 

At best we are 2 drafts in with 2020 and 2021. That leaves 2-3 more plus the lead time on those. We have a systemic problem and sabres fans and management have ignored it for years with band-aids and quick fixes and here we are. Well guess what, we are going to be bad this year, and probably next, hopefully in 2023 we turn the corner but it is going to be a grind and there will be streaks of bad play and there will be mistakes but at least they recognize the process need to get better. Execution remains a question. 

Of course it takes time, but we can only comment on what is on the ice. The rest is hope and conjecture. 

What I am looking for is a clear indicator of a team style and an identity. They still seem to be juggling this for that and mixing and matching and there's no clear indicator to me that we are headed in any particular direction. 

If you take moving Eichel (after Risto and Reinhart) as the bottom, you expect to move upwards from there little by little, and if you get a lot right you make a leap forward at some point but either way a constant progression. On many nights we're still seeing a team that doesn't seem to belong in the NHL. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It bears a bit of discussion in that a lot of focus is given to the “players” side of the “players who want to be here” equation but little to the “here” portion. As if Adams is somehow powerless in being adherent to this CHOSEN strategy. Even if we all agree it’s how Adams SHOULD approach the roster, the “here” side of the equation still represents an avenue for potential manipulation. 

If “here” was a place where more winning happened, perhaps the mindset of those Players would change.

Personally I think people put too much stock in that comment. I think he only said it as a justifier for trading Eichel and maybe the rest of the tear down. 

[Curt]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What makes LaFontaine more of a good pick for senior guy in charge of hierarchy over Kevyn Adams?

He was a better puck handler?

[Thorner]

Just now, Curt said:

He was a better puck handler?

Way better hair

[Carmel Corn]

My expectation is that GMKA should be a seller and maximize whatever picks he can get for our UFA's.  I have no illusion we'll challenge this season (or next) and so I'd prefer to get more picks and continue stocking the cupboard for the future.  If he can swap some prospects in the process (ex. RHD), that would be excellent.  We're at least two years away from challenging for the playoffs, so let's not give away 2nd round picks for mediocre older vets who are past their prime.  If we buy, let's continue to use our cap space as a weapon and get more picks.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'd take Klingberg or Josh Manson.  I also give Justin Braun a 1 year deal.  That said, I think the more likely route is taking someone with a year or two left on their deal who a team may part with to stay cap compliant.  For example someone like Orlov or even Scandella.  I want the veteran leadership on the backend to mentor Dahlin, Samuelsson and Power but who can still play hockey.  Admittedly these are deals are more likely this coming off-season, but there maybe one possible at the deadline.

Getting Scandella back would be great, though doubt that's possible.  We likely get very good Jokiharju back as well.  And we get Dahlin back w/ Pysyk for now & hopefully someone that belongs higher up the food chain for him to pair w/ next season.

Dahlin-Pysyk

Scandella-Joliharju

Samuelsson-Power 

is significantly better than what's been out there on a nightly basis.

 

And while many here don't seem to see any way to get a goalie next year, the large amount of capspace should, & needs to, be used to upgrade the goaltending either via FA or trade - they can take on a 1-2 year albatross contract to make the price of an actual honest to God current NHL netminder doable w/out gutting the future waiting for Levi &/or Portillo &/or UPL to be ready to take the reins.

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'd take Klingberg or Josh Manson.  I also give Justin Braun a 1 year deal.  That said, I think the more likely route is taking someone with a year or two left on their deal who a team may part with to stay cap compliant.  For example someone like Orlov or even Scandella.  I want the veteran leadership on the backend to mentor Dahlin, Samuelsson and Power but who can still play hockey.  Admittedly these are deals are more likely this coming off-season, but there maybe one possible at the deadline.

The whole reason Klingberg is leaving is due to him wanting a huge contract. He's just too old for the term he'd want. Don't mind the Braun idea.

In my mind you either need to get a younger core piece or pay 8 to 9 mil for 2 years to a high end vet. 2 years because that's effectively when most of our bridges/ELCs end.  

Don't really want Scandella back, Orlov would be great depending on the price.

Edited January 20, 2022 by thewookie1

[Doohicksie]

23 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

Hopefully  they trade Victor Olofsson he's basically Kotalík just trade him now when his stock is high 

His stock isn't very high right now.  He's been injured, production down and he's due for a new contract.  There is control as an RFA but really his value was much higher, say, at the end of last season and may be higher in the offseason if he can pull his act together.

On 1/18/2022 at 5:22 PM, dudacek said:

Well, apparently Adams does have problem with asking too much.

Crazy?

Or crazy like a fox?

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Jan Rutta

I don't think you can get those players for only a 2nd

Back in the day Lydman was acquired for a 4th. I think you can get a quality player for a 2nd.  Zadorov went for a 3rd this summer.  Nate Schmidt also went for a 3rd.  Brendan Dillon went for 2 2nds.  I do that deal right now. Jake Bean went for a 2nd.  Bottom line is that help is available without breaking the bank draft pick wise.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

There was certainly a way to win more. I think that’s GA’s point. Your post is excellent overall but my frustration with that side overall would be the claim that not only is what Adams doing adequate, that it was his only avenue of choice. The claim that this was the ONLY way to do it is the disingenuous part and @Taro T has done a better job than I could ever do explaining why

Few people are making the claim that the rebuilding approach the GM is taking was the only course of action he could have taken. However, he chose a particular clean the slate course of action that was much more leaning toward futures than a hybrid approach that would have involved keeping more of his old core. Jack simply didn't want to be here any longer. (I don't blame him.) And he made it clear to the GM. In addition, the surgery issue was another issue where neither side was yielding. So the GM bided his team and got a reasonable deal for him. It is a fair criticism that this organization should have signed Rheinhart to a longer term contract a few years back. I'm not sure why an extension couldn't be done, especially when there were indications that the player was receptive to a longer deal? It then got to the point where Sam indicated that once he got to his UFA year he was going to depart. (Again, I don't blame the player for wanting out.) So he was dealt. 

The point I am making is that the GM made a decision that he was going to institute a full scale rebuild that was going to dramatically reshape the roster that he inherited. Was money a factor? Of course it was. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. He envisioned a roster not built around our unhappy super star player but a roster that had more talent spread around the roster. And that's where we are. How long will this excruciating process take? My opinion it will take three years. What our GM decided to do is take the standard rebuild approach that mostly relies on drafting and developing. That is the same approach that Detroit is taking under Yzerman. 

[Digger]

3 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active/2022/points/all/defense/ufa/desc/right?limits=age-20-35

Here's all active Righty Dmen

There are very few that would be useful and could potentially shake loose. 

 

I'm not picky, I'll take the first two of the top of the list Makar and Ekblad.  Thanks very much.