Potential Sabres deadline moves(sellers)…

[dudacek]

35 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He has strengthened the front office but with Zero results so far.  As you pointed out our top picks outside Power are struggling from last years draft.  His two teams are a disaster.  He has completely failed to improve the goaltending.  His D group as you also pointed out is also terrible.  

Yes he did pretty well dumping the old core.  Now what?  More picks and prospects at the deadline?  Yippee!  At least the kids will come and play. 

My real hope is that we see some hockey trades at the deadline if possible.  Use our cap space if possible to get the veteran D we need at the deadline. Maybe a real goaltender shakes loose.  He should view this deadline as a jump start on next season.
 

Do I think KA has the skills to make this happen? No, but there is always hopium.   Maybe some other idiot will pay a first for Miller. (I doubt it).  Maybe our jacking up Hagg’s PK time will help get him traded for something decent.  

My greatest hope is KA is promoted before the deadline and Karmanos is placed in charge.

 

Zero results yet from the hockey department he assembled less than a year ago?

Zero results yet from the 6 1sts and 6 2nds he acquired for the 21-23 drafts?

Zero results yet from his slow cook player development focus and strategy a half-season in?

Zero results yet from his sign cheap pending UFAs/maximize cap space strategy prior to its first trade deadline and off-season?

Zero results yet from a season that was clearly always planned to be about development?

Shocking.

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by dudacek

[French Collection]

27 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He has strengthened the front office but with Zero results so far.  As you pointed out our top picks outside Power are struggling from last years draft.  His two teams are a disaster.  He has completely failed to improve the goaltending.  His D group as you also pointed out is also terrible.  

Yes he did pretty well dumping the old core.  Now what?  More picks and prospects at the deadline?  Yippee!  At least the kids will come and play. 

My real hope is that we see some hockey trades at the deadline if possible.  Use our cap space if possible to get the veteran D we need at the deadline. Maybe a real goaltender shakes loose.  He should view this deadline as a jump start on next season.
 

Do I think KA has the skills to make this happen? No, but there is always hopium.   Maybe some other idiot will pay a first for Miller. (I doubt it).  Maybe our jacking up Hagg’s PK time will help get him traded for something decent.  

My greatest hope is KA is promoted before the deadline and Karmanos is placed in charge.

 

Friedman talked about weaponizing cap space at the trade deadline for a few teams that have it. He called it Kingmaking.

The problem with the Sabres getting good players at the deadline is that the playoff teams are adding so there is a premium on talent. I think they could add some near ready prospects for taking on a salary or two.

Josh Bloom is one draft pick from ‘21 that is breaking out and having a solid season in the OHL. He plays some C as well.

[GASabresIUFAN]

19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Zero results from the hockey department he assembled less than a year ago?

Zero results yet from the 6 1sts and 6 2nds he acquired for the 21-23 drafts?

Zero results from his slow cook player development focus and strategy a half-season in?

Zero results from his sign cheap pending UFAs/maximize cap space strategy prior to its first trade deadline and off-season?

Shocking.

 

LOL, LMAO.  This wasn't a strategy, it was mandatory cost containment issued to him by TP/KP.  Nice spin though.

Slow cook prospect development strategy has been in place since Jbot was GM.  Fitzgerald, UPL, Laaksonen, Murray, Bryson, Asplund, Borgen, even VO, these are all guys Jbot or TM acquired that Jbot allowed to develop slowly in Europe or CHL or in Rochester.  It was Jbot who sent UPL to the CHL and then placed him in the ECHL and then Rochester.  It was Jbot who signed Murray and placed him Rochester.  Nice try.  PS Even Mitts and Thompson were sent down to get their games straight and that has made a huge difference.  

As to the future picks, that is a lottery.  We've tried that strategy before and failed.  Maybe KA's crew will get it right, maybe.  However, he had 2 first and 2 seconds and 3/4 of those picks are struggling post draft.  Not a ringing endorsement for his Russia centric analytic approach.  He seemed to make better draft decisions in his first draft with the team Jbot had in place when he took Quinn and JJP. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

LOL, LMAO.  This wasn't a strategy, it was mandatory cost containment issued to him by TP/KP.  Nice spin though.

Insert Jennifer Lawrence GIF here.

Not sure why you continue to pursue the narrative the Adams is trying to win this year when all evidence is to the contrary.

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Insert Jennifer Lawrence GIF here.

Not sure why you continue to pursue the narrative the Adams is trying to win this year when all evidence is to the contrary.

I've never said KA was trying to win this year.  I've said 1000 times he's tanking. I said the moment he failed to sign Ullmark he went full on tank. I've said that had he acquired good goaltending and 2 solid veteran stay at home D, we could have had a good season without much more in cost then we are spending now helping the team move toward a winning culture.  Instead he tanked and continues to instill a losing culture where management fails to support a team showing effort.

Edited January 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I've never said KA was trying to win this year. 

Then why do you constantly want him fired over his record?

Seems to me the season is unfolding pretty much like he planned: costs are controlled, the room seems OK, the kids are developing, we are still in line for a lottery pick.

Edited January 19, 2022 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He has strengthened the front office but with Zero results so far.  

I stopped reading here because I don't expect results yet. Adams really become the true GM of this team the day he fired Krueger so I judge from there going forward. Basically I start expecting stuff in March when the young guys Adams brought start to contribute and especially going into September I expect things. 

33 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I've never said KA was trying to win this year.  I've said 1000 times he's tanking. I said the moment he failed to sign Ullmark he went full on tank. I've said that had he acquired good goaltending and 2 solid veteran stay at home D, we could have had a good season without much more in cost then we are spending now helping the team move toward a winning culture.  Instead he tanked and continues to instill a losing culture where management fails to support a team showing effort.

I do not believe this is a thing that simply happens because you lose. 

43 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

LOL, LMAO.  This wasn't a strategy, it was mandatory cost containment issued to him by TP/KP.  Nice spin though.

Slow cook prospect development strategy has been in place since Jbot was GM.  Fitzgerald, UPL, Laaksonen, Murray, Bryson, Asplund, Borgen, even VO, these are all guys Jbot or TM acquired that Jbot allowed to develop slowly in Europe or CHL or in Rochester.  It was Jbot who sent UPL to the CHL and then placed him in the ECHL and then Rochester.  It was Jbot who signed Murray and placed him Rochester.  Nice try.  PS Even Mitts and Thompson were sent down to get their games straight and that has made a huge difference.  

As to the future picks, that is a lottery.  We've tried that strategy before and failed.  Maybe KA's crew will get it right, maybe.  However, he had 2 first and 2 seconds and 3/4 of those picks are struggling post draft.  Not a ringing endorsement for his Russia centric analytic approach.  He seemed to make better draft decisions in his first draft with the team Jbot had in place when he took Quinn and JJP. 

I don't believe this. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

This fantasy view of KA's tenure so far is really amazing.  Giving him a free pass for year 1 is simply wrong.  He signed Hall, gave him $8 mill and a NTC thereby destroying his trade value when the plan failed and using up our cap space to help in other areas.  He signed Eakin for 2 years.  He acquired Staal.  He failed to replace Hutton.  He failed to extend Ullmark (and McCabe for that matter).   He doesn't get a free pass for these mistakes.  They are on him.  

Again, whether you call it a development year or a tank, the result is the same.  KA built a team to lose.  To me that's a tank.  If it makes you feel better call it something else call it something else.  The results are the same.  How many seasons now have Dahlin, Mitts, Thompson, Asplund, and Jokiharju seen without a commitment to building a winning team.  How many seasons are they witnessing where the top end players are sent packing and are they replaced with dumpster fires Eakin, Hayden, Caggilua, Bjork, Butcher, Rieder, and Sheahan?  

The sad part of all this is that we could have had a reasonable team for similar cap $.  We have spent nearly $4.5 on our parade of terrible goaltending.  We are spending 2.8 on Butcher and another 3.8 on Miller.  We also added $ 6 mill in cap on Boychuk's deal.  That's 17 mill in wasted cap that could have been spent on quality veteran players and still kept us as or near the cap floor.  For example: Had we simply retained McCabe ($4) and Ullmark ($5) traded Miller for whatever but still signed say Anderson and Pysyk, we'd have a much much better team.  Obviously McCabe and Ullmark wanted out, but I wonder if KA had offered to extended them mid-season last year whether one or both would have stayed. 

I guess this is why I want KA fired.  No vision.  It isn't the team W-L record, because that is a by product of his decisions.  It's the fact of his saying he wanted to build a winning culture and then doing the exact opposite.  To me building a winning culture doesn't start after one more bottom feeding year, it starts the day you say it.  I look at KA's decision making and wonder what he is thinking.  He knows the goaltending stinks for 2 years and instead of making it better he makes it worse.  He also knows the in zone defense is awful, yet he spends precious cap $ on the worst in zone D in the NHL named Butcher.  The only reasonable explanation for those decisions is purposefully building a team to lose.  I'm against such strategies and any GM who employ them.

Edited January 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This fantasy view of KA's tenure so far is really amazing.  Giving him a free pass for year 1 is simply wrong.  He signed Hall, gave him $8 mill and a NTC thereby destroying his trade value when the plan failed and using up our cap space to help in other areas.  He signed Eakin for 2 years.  He acquired Staal.  He failed to replace Hutton.  He failed to extend Ullmark (and McCabe for that matter).   He doesn't get a free pass for these mistakes.  They are on him.  

Again, whether you call it a development year or a tank, the result is the same.  KA built a team to lose.  To me that's a tank.  If it makes you feel better call it something else call it something else.  The results are the same.  How many seasons now have Dahlin, Mitts, Thompson, Asplund, and Jokiharju seen without a commitment to building a winning team.  How many seasons are they witnessing where the top end players are sent packing and are they replaced with dumpster fires Eakin, Hayden, Caggilua, Bjork, Butcher, Rieder, and Sheahan?  

The sad part of all this is that we could have had a reasonable team for similar cap $.  We have spent nearly $4.5 on our parade of terrible goaltending.  We are spending 2.8 on Butcher and another 3.8 on Miller.  We also added $ 6 mill in cap on Boychuk's deal.  That's 17 mill in wasted cap that could have been spent on quality veteran players and still kept us as or near the cap floor.  For example: Had we simply retained McCabe ($4) and Ullmark ($5) traded Miller for whatever but still signed say Anderson and Pysyk, we'd have a much much better team.  Obviously McCabe and Ullmark wanted out, but I wonder if KA had offered to extended them mid-season last year whether one or both would have stayed. 

I guess this is why I want KA fired.  No vision.  It isn't the team W-L record, because that is a by product of his decisions.  It's the fact of his saying he wanted to build a winning culture and then doing the exact opposite.  To me building a winning culture doesn't start after one more bottom feeding year, it starts the day you say it.  I look at KA's decision making and wonder what he is thinking.  He knows the goaltending stinks for 2 years and instead of making it better he makes it worse.  He also knows the in zone defense is awful, yet he spends precious cap $ on the worst in zone D in the NHL named Butcher.  The only reasonable explanation for those decisions is purposefully building a team to lose.  I'm against such strategies and any GM who employ them.

You are entitled to this opinion but I vehemently disagree with what you say after.

It is laughable to me that you are using Boychuk's and Butcher's cap as some sort of failing. We have millions in cap room to add whatever we want but WHY, you have never answered this, why would any respectable UFA want to sign in Buffalo right now? McCabe and Ullmark were UFA and decided to go elsewhere. You have repeatedly tried to claim we are wasting cap space because of Boychuk and Butcher yet completely ignore how the cap functions or the fact we got an asset to take Butcher. Boychuk is on LTIR, if we hit the cap, his caphit would not matter. Butcher, who cares? We got a draft pick for 1 year of him. It is insane that this keeps being repeated as some indictment of Kevyn Adams. What players did we miss out on by adding Butcher and the more hilarious addition to this is now Boychuk. We added Boychuk after the Eichel trade to get back to the cap floor and you are in here bitching about wasting money? We have lots of room to add whatever we want but you can't add players if they don't want to come and you certainly can't add good UFA's in November. McCabe wanted to move on. Ullmark wanted to move on. Braden Holtby didn't want to come here. This is such a nonsensical argument when you view it in terms of wasted cap dollars for a team that sits 25 million currently under the cap. I am so frustrated reading over and over and over how dumb Adams is for wasting cap space on team with 25 MILLION in cap space. 

Here is the list of UFA's signed last summer. Who should we have paid an extra million for to come to a team that is REBUILDING. https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nhl/news/nhl-free-agency-tracker-2021-signings-best-available-players/5dbu0zce5pox1lr4czs4l0190

Look at this list, there are almost 0, none, zilch, nada teams that were predicted bottom 5-10 of the league that were able to sign UFAs with the exception of the Kraken. Montreal was certainly not expected to be down there and NYI were also not. Only 22 teams were able to sign UFA's and only 14 teams were able to sign more than 1. Yes this is just the top 50 but, that's really want makes a difference is the top 50 ufas. 

There was no way to win this year and this isn't football, you can't just reload magically. It takes time and the key to building a winning culture is not just winning, it is teaching the practices and habits to win. I am always floored by the idea that some guys are such losers that if they lose they will just lose. Sam Reinhart was such a loser with his loser mentality that he is 4th in points on a Cup Contender, what a loser! To bad he lost so much here and is now a loser. Losing sucks but the players like Quinn, Cozens, Tuch etc... are not accepting of it even as it happens. There is a reason Dahlin has been working extra on the ice with coaches even though they have lost. Culture starts by defining what is acceptable and I think it has been made clear losing is not, even if it might be inevitable in a year where they traded their 2 best forwards and lost a top defender and goalie in UFA. That's on the coaches and type of personalities you bring in, there is a reason the Sabres while losing are still able to fight and claw back in most games. Sure they aren't good, not arguing otherwise but the pieces that will be here next year actually look pretty okay. 

If you don't think KA has a vision you are deliberately choosing to believe that. I mean good lord you triple down on the Butcher trade saying "he spends precious cap $" on butcher... 25 million on the cap, how ever will we survive the 2.8mil we are paying for Butcher. He didn't build a team to lose he just can't build a team to win in 1 year and yes it is 1 year. He tried to win the Krueger year. He brought in Staal and Hall and whatever else. Now those decisions were bad and I think we all agree with that but you wanted him to do that again by bringing some has beens because that would somehow equate to winning. It wouldn't. 

Yup he knows the goaltending stinks so what did he do? Got rid of the main issue (take a look at his stats) tried to sign Ullmark and failed (should be held accountable for that) and traded Sam Reinhart for what has become the best goalie in the NCAA (which surprised just about all of us). So he has taken steps to address goaltending, but what UFA goalie was willing to come to Buffalo that we didn't sign? Should Adams have overpaid for a goalie to get them to sign? 

He didn't purposely build this team to lose, that was done long before Adams got here, he just hasn't been able to add enough for them to win. That is why we have multiple first and second round picks as well as a beefed up analytics department so when the opportunity to add plays comes along, they can do it. The idea that Adams was going to be able to clear out the team and rebuild in 1 offseason is crazy to me. 

One last comment, because you are absolutely fixated on Butcher. Butcher is not here because we sent a top player packing, he is here for cap floor purposes and because we got a pick to take him. If the defense was fully healthy, Butcher isn't in the lineup and won't be in the lineup as late as April 10th when Power signs and the left is Dahlin, Power, Sammy. You are staring at a tree without seeing the forest which was, get the decks cleared, start to add the players you want, allow your under 21s to develop another year and get ready to take a step forward in 2022 when Krebs, Quinn, maybe JJ, Samuelsson, Power, and potentially another player step up onto the roster and replace the Hayden's and the Caggiula's.  That is how you build by developing your own and that takes precious time. Will we make the playoffs in 2022/23, probably not but depending on UPL and Portillo and Levi along with the other young guys just mentioned we will look a lot better than this year. 

Again, look at the UFA's, which one would have signed here and how does that actually help us. You can't expect Adams do things simply because you wish it. 

[thewookie1]

I just want to add that 102 goalies have started in the NHL this year. That means on average every team is using 3+ goalies. Most teams, due to COVID, are hording their goalies since any team can easily go down 2 goalies in a day thanks to a COVID event. So all of the teams are carrying/protecting any goalie even worth a look at this time. Just look at a few of the other teams who are looking for goaltending help.

Edmonton didn't do much to address the problem aside sign their own 40 year old to a 2 year deal.

Colorado traded a 1st to get Kuemper after losing Grubauer in a similar way to how we lost Ullmark. And they still are looking for more depth due to Francois’s health concerns and Johansson not being all that good either.

NJ has gone through 6 goalies like us.

Presently almost every playoff team is scouring to find a means to getting 3 NHL caliber goalies which means anything past there is effectively ranked 96th or lower

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by thewookie1

[spndnchz]

Words…

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, tom webster said:

History is full of examples of people with little to no experience were the best people for the job. This is especially true in an era were what once was thought to be absolute has been completely discredited by information never before available.

The fact that Lafontaine hasn’t been mentioned for any positions of comparable stature since should tell you all you need to know.

There is a faction of responders who reflexively respond to every topic that this franchise has made bad hockey decisions for a decade. That is not a revelation to anyone who knows what a hockey puck is. So their reasoning becomes that the hockey staff has failed in the past so it will fail in the present and future. The issue that is confronting this organization is how does it turn things around from that inglorious past? This current GM has made the decision to jettison the former core (for a variety of reasons) and rebuild from the bottom/up. Once that decision was made it was going to take time to rebuild a competitive roster. That's the real world that the howling backbenchers can't accept.  

[woods-racer]

29 minutes ago, JohnC said:

There is a faction of responders who reflexively respond to every topic that this franchise has made bad hockey decisions for a decade. That is not a revelation to anyone who knows what a hockey puck is. So their reasoning becomes that the hockey staff has failed in the past so it will fail in the present and future. The issue that is confronting this organization is how does it turn things around from that inglorious past? This current GM has made the decision to jettison the former core (for a variety of reasons) and rebuild from the bottom/up. Once that decision was made it was going to take time to rebuild a competitive roster. That's the real world that the howling backbenchers can't accept.  

Have you ever tried being a howling backbencher? I can tell you from personal experience that it is way more fun than being a silent frontbencher, that's for sure. We always have good beer, the best pizza and hot chicks. We spend most of our time laughing at the  frontbenchers in their cardigan sweaters. 

[nfreeman]

There are a number of flaws in @GASabresIUFAN's post, some of which he's repeated from prior posts (e.g. blaming KA for giving Hall a NMC is silly and the linkage of the Butcher deals with the failure to bring in a goalie is baseless; also, failing to replace Hutton is a strange way to describe the real issue, which is the failure to bring in real NHL goaltending), but I think his overall point is fair and correct:  the team is losing much more than is healthy for the development of the new generation, and it didn't need to be this way.

As I've been saying for years:  losing begets losing.  This team looks like a bottom-5 team and perhaps worse than that.  Does anyone think they will just flip a switch next year when Power and Quinn are here and delete the loser mindset from their operating system?

KA is accountable for the failure to bring in a real goalie in either of his 2 offseasons, and for icing terrible teams that lost game after game.  He's also accountable for hiring DM, whom I like but on whom the jury is very much still out.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the new generation can do in the rest of this season and next, but I think KA has made it harder than it needed to be.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, tom webster said:

History is full of examples of people with little to no experience were the best people for the job. This is especially true in an era were what once was thought to be absolute has been completely discredited by information never before available.

The fact that Lafontaine hasn’t been mentioned for any positions of comparable stature since should tell you all you need to know.

Sure, but sometimes George Costanza gets the job...................

The point is we keep going with guys who learn on the job and they make mistakes as they learn and then we fire them for those mistakes and start all over again. Hence a decade of not even mediocrity but absolute rubbish. 

Regarding LaFontaine, my point wasn't about him specifically, but rather about having a senior guy in charge of the hierarchy. With whatever happened there Pegulas decided they didn't need that job in the organization and that, imo, is a huge mistake. 

[nfreeman]

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sure, but sometimes George Costanza gets the job...................

The point is we keep going with guys who learn on the job and they make mistakes as they learn and then we fire them for those mistakes and start all over again. Hence a decade of not even mediocrity but absolute rubbish. 

Regarding LaFontaine, my point wasn't about him specifically, but rather about having a senior guy in charge of the hierarchy. With whatever happened there Pegulas decided they didn't need that job in the organization and that, imo, is a huge mistake. 

IMHO it's all about finding the right guys.  TP found them for the Bills and hasn't found them yet for the Sabres (and I think @dudacek's point was that the fact that Murray, Botteril, Krueger, PLF, DDB, etc. haven't gotten GM/HC jobs since leaving the Sabres indicates that they weren't the right guys for those jobs -- although to be fair it's also quite possible that they've been tainted with Sabres stink to the point where they are not viable candidates for those jobs). 

I'm not sure whether you're saying that TM and/or JB would've turned the Sabres into a good team with more time, but it's hard to be confident that this would've been the result.

Is TP accountable for making bad choices on those hires?  Yes, but he was certainly influenced by PLF in hiring TM and probably by others in the NHL in hiring JB, and TM and JB certainly had plenty of influence in their HC hires.  The problem is that it takes a long time to evaluate a GM, and we just have to eat a poop sandwich every day in the meantime.

Maybe this time it'll be different.  I do take encouragement from the Bills' success that sooner or later the same is coming for the Sabres.  KA seems more like McD/BB than any of KA's predecessors, IMHO.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

48 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

There are a number of flaws in @GASabresIUFAN's post, some of which he's repeated from prior posts (e.g. blaming KA for giving Hall a NMC is silly and the linkage of the Butcher deals with the failure to bring in a goalie is baseless; also, failing to replace Hutton is a strange way to describe the real issue, which is the failure to bring in real NHL goaltending), but I think his overall point is fair and correct:  the team is losing much more than is healthy for the development of the new generation, and it didn't need to be this way.

As I've been saying for years:  losing begets losing.  This team looks like a bottom-5 team and perhaps worse than that.  Does anyone think they will just flip a switch next year when Power and Quinn are here and delete the loser mindset from their operating system?

KA is accountable for the failure to bring in a real goalie in either of his 2 offseasons, and for icing terrible teams that lost game after game.  He's also accountable for hiring DM, whom I like but on whom the jury is very much still out.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the new generation can do in the rest of this season and next, but I think KA has made it harder than it needed to be.

I think where you and others miss the point about wasting limited cap $ is that I believe that KA is under pretty strict purse strings this season.  TP/KP have IMHO told him he can't spend much if any over the cap floor.  His moves this past off-season have reflected that.   My point about Butcher is that he is a terrible player who should have never been acquired at any price and it's even worse when you are operating as a cap floor team and you waste 2.8 mill on Butcher.  I believe that he could have spent that money else where and received more bang for his buck.  Frankly, I don't know why this is so hard to understand.   When you look at the cap hits for Boychuk and Butcher, you are looking at 9 million (or 15%) of the mandated cap floor.  To me that's 9 million that could have gone to real hockey players that could have made this team better.   

The only way this move and others are understandable is if KA was tanking.  The argument that Butcher was just to get us to the cap floor but that we aren't tanking doesn't makes no sense to me.  You don't bring in bad players and expect positive results.  

Freeman, where you and I agree is that tanking is never the right strategy and could have been avoided this season even as a cap floor team.

PS: as to @LGR4GM fixation on UFAs; there are other ways to acquire talent.  How about trade for someone?  

Edited January 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Flashsabre]

To me this off-season is the time to get serious about making a leap forward. Their two biggest prospects, Power and Quinn will be joining the team, Krebs and Mule will be up full time. 

Adding a legit goalie, a high end RHD  and a vet high end forward would do wonders. Spend some money and assets. Between the kids and a couple key adds most of the low end talent won’t need to be resigned.

[nfreeman]

20 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think where you and others miss the point about wasting limited cap $ is that I believe that KA is under pretty strict purse strings this season.  TP/KP have IMHO told him he can't spend much if any over the cap floor.  His moves this past off-season have reflected that.   My point about Butcher is that he is a terrible player who should have never been acquired at any price and it's even worse when you are operating as a cap floor team and you waste 2.8 mill on Butcher.  I believe that he could have spent that money else where and received more bang for his buck.  Frankly, I don't know why this is so hard to understand.   When you look at the cap hits for Boychuk and Butcher, you are looking at 9 million (or 15%) of the mandated cap floor.  To me that's 9 million that could have gone to real hockey players that could have made this team better.   

The only way this move and others are understandable is if KA was tanking.  The argument that Butcher was just to get us to the cap floor but that we aren't tanking doesn't makes no sense to me.  You don't bring in bad players and expect positive results.  

Freeman, where you and I agree is that tanking is never the right strategy and could have been avoided this season even as a cap floor team.

PS: as to @LGR4GM fixation on UFAs; there are other ways to acquire talent.  How about trade for someone?  

It's not hard to understand -- I think those who are disagreeing with you simply don't believe you are correct that KA's mandate is to operate at the cap floor.  If that assumption is wrong, the "Butcher-cost-us-a-better-player" theory falls apart. 

I will say though that the cap floor theory isn't from outer space.  It's possible that KA got that kind of mandate.  I just think it's much more likely that (i) one of KA's core team-building principles is not to have anyone on the roster who doesn't want to be here, (ii) that principle substantially limits the universe of players he can trade for, since the Sabres are such a poopshow and (iii) the poopshow factor also limits the FAs he can bring in, since any good FA will go elsewhere unless he is well overpaid in AAV and term to come here -- which is another kind of guy that KA wants to avoid.

The bolded is just #hammymath.  As @LGR4GM has already pointed out, Boychuk was acquired well after the point at which the cap space could've been used on other players.

[PerreaultForever]

45 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO it's all about finding the right guys.  TP found them for the Bills and hasn't found them yet for the Sabres (and I think @dudacek's point was that the fact that Murray, Botteril, Krueger, PLF, DDB, etc. haven't gotten GM/HC jobs since leaving the Sabres indicates that they weren't the right guys for those jobs -- although to be fair it's also quite possible that they've been tainted with Sabres stink to the point where they are not viable candidates for those jobs). 

I'm not sure whether you're saying that TM and/or JB would've turned the Sabres into a good team with more time, but it's hard to be confident that this would've been the result.

Is TP accountable for making bad choices on those hires?  Yes, but he was certainly influenced by PLF in hiring TM and probably by others in the NHL in hiring JB, and TM and JB certainly had plenty of influence in their HC hires.  The problem is that it takes a long time to evaluate a GM, and we just have to eat a poop sandwich every day in the meantime.

Maybe this time it'll be different.  I do take encouragement from the Bills' success that sooner or later the same is coming for the Sabres.  KA seems more like McD/BB than any of KA's predecessors, IMHO.

 

Well the optimist in me hopes that's true, but from outside the area I see no comparables between the Sabres and the Bills. I don't watch football as much as I used to so I might be wrong here but the Bills seem to me to be a hard working defense first team and that, to this point in time, is definitely not the Sabres. 

I don't think it's valuable to say those guys they hired didn't get other jobs as meaning much since those guys didn't have enough of a resume when they got here so of course they wouldn't move up after. Botterill did get an assistant GM job though pretty fast to be fair. Based on his time in Pittsburgh no doubt, but still, he got a job. 

I am not saying any of them were good hires and would do a better job if given time. They all cocked it up in one way or another and I think the reason for that is they didn't have an experienced guy above them to come in and stop some of their bad moves. 

We have the draft capital and the prospects now, so it's all in place for Adams to succeed, but it looked that way when Murray was here too, and he squandered the picks and made a bunch of bad moves and it failed miserably. I think my main point is it all looked good on paper then too. Everyone thought we were poised to rise up in the dawning of the Eichel era. This doesn't feel different to me. I HOPE it is, but so far I don't see it. 

When Adams talks he seems to say we will become Carolina. Fast, tenacious, attacking relentlessly. A team that doesn't quit. But I don't see that on the ice. Not in terms of style or form or content. It's all just coming soon and to be announced. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sure, but sometimes George Costanza gets the job...................

The point is we keep going with guys who learn on the job and they make mistakes as they learn and then we fire them for those mistakes and start all over again. Hence a decade of not even mediocrity but absolute rubbish. 

Regarding LaFontaine, my point wasn't about him specifically, but rather about having a senior guy in charge of the hierarchy. With whatever happened there Pegulas decided they didn't need that job in the organization and that, imo, is a huge mistake. 

What makes LaFontaine more of a good pick for senior guy in charge of hierarchy over Kevyn Adams?

[Weave]

20 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

It's not hard to understand -- I think those who are disagreeing with you simply don't believe you are correct that KA's mandate is to operate at the cap floor.  If that assumption is wrong, the "Butcher-cost-us-a-better-player" theory falls apart. 

I will say though that the cap floor theory isn't from outer space.  It's possible that KA got that kind of mandate.  I just think it's much more likely that (i) one of KA's core team-building principles is not to have anyone on the roster who doesn't want to be here, (ii) that principle substantially limits the universe of players he can trade for, since the Sabres are such a poopshow and (iii) the poopshow factor also limits the FAs he can bring in, since any good FA will go elsewhere unless he is well overpaid in AAV and term to come here -- which is another kind of guy that KA wants to avoid.

The bolded is just #hammymath.  As @LGR4GM has already pointed out, Boychuk was acquired well after the point at which the cap space could've been used on other players.

I don't understand how GA can continue to believe that KA wasted opportunity cost with Butcher, et al when it has been plainly stated for over a year now that "wants to be in BUffalo" is the overarching requirement for anyone getting signed here.  The amount of players that want to sign in Buffalo is miniscule at best.  We just aren't going to have access to the good-to-middling pool of talent.

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

 When Adams talks he seems to say we will become Carolina. Fast, tenacious, attacking relentlessly. A team that doesn't quit. But I don't see that on the ice. Not in terms of style or form or content. It's all just coming soon and to be announced. 

Of course you don't because as many as 7 of the forwards aren't in place yet. It took Carolina 4 drafts to get where they are and they continued to draft well after that. You could argue 5 drafts to get there but we will go with 4, 2015-2019 and the guys they drafted who didn't fit the system or they thought they could upgrade they traded. 

At best we are 2 drafts in with 2020 and 2021. That leaves 2-3 more plus the lead time on those. We have a systemic problem and sabres fans and management have ignored it for years with band-aids and quick fixes and here we are. Well guess what, we are going to be bad this year, and probably next, hopefully in 2023 we turn the corner but it is going to be a grind and there will be streaks of bad play and there will be mistakes but at least they recognize the process need to get better. Execution remains a question. 

Edited January 19, 2022 by LGR4GM

[GASabresIUFAN]

35 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

It's not hard to understand -- I think those who are disagreeing with you simply don't believe you are correct that KA's mandate is to operate at the cap floor.  If that assumption is wrong, the "Butcher-cost-us-a-better-player" theory falls apart. 

I will say though that the cap floor theory isn't from outer space.  It's possible that KA got that kind of mandate.  I just think it's much more likely that (i) one of KA's core team-building principles is not to have anyone on the roster who doesn't want to be here, (ii) that principle substantially limits the universe of players he can trade for, since the Sabres are such a poopshow and (iii) the poopshow factor also limits the FAs he can bring in, since any good FA will go elsewhere unless he is well overpaid in AAV and term to come here -- which is another kind of guy that KA wants to avoid.

The bolded is just #hammymath.  As @LGR4GM has already pointed out, Boychuk was acquired well after the point at which the cap space could've been used on other players.

Boychuk was acquired when we fell under the cap floor once Eichel was traded to get us back to the floor.  Again, KA has another opportunity to add talent to the roster and choose the one move that add cap $ but at a bargain real $ price (500k).  To me this is more evidence of the mandate.  

I guess I just don't believe anything coming out of a GM's mouth.  They are the politicians of the sports world.  KA talks about only getting players that want to be here.  Sounds great as a soundbite but is ultimately BS.  UFAs go two places, places they have a chance to win or where they can get the biggest $ (or the only places willing to give them more NHL time).  Until we field a good team, no big name UFA is coming here and that doesn't work anyway.   The same applies to players with NMC/NTCs.  (Although only 24% of NHL players have NTC/NMCs and of those 90% are limited in some fashion)

We have trade capital and KA hasn't used it.  My argument has always been that he should be using some of that capital to enhance the goaltending and enhance the defensive skill of the D group.  

@Weave - Butcher was traded here, he didn't have a choice.  When he was a UDFA out of college, he refused to sign here just like Vesey.  

One other note.  PLF should have never been hired and should have never been empowered to choose the first GM.  He was about as qualified to be a team President as KA was to be a GM.

Edited January 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Boychuk was acquired when we fell under the cap floor once Eichel was traded to get us back to the floor.  Again, KA has another opportunity to add talent to the roster and choose the one move that add cap $ but at a bargain real $ price (500k).  To me this is more evidence of the mandate.  

I guess I just don't believe anything coming out of a GM's mouth.  They are the politicians of the sports world.  KA talks about only getting players that want to be here.  Sounds great as a soundbite but is ultimately BS.  UFAs go two places, places they have a chance to win or where they can get the biggest $ (or the only places willing to give them more NHL time).  Until we field a good team, no big name UFA is coming here and that doesn't work anyway.   The same applies to players with NMC/NTCs.  (Although only 24% of NHL players have NTC/NMCs and of those 90% are limited in some fashion)

We have trade capital and KA hasn't used it.  My argument has always been that he should be using some of that capital to enhance the goaltending and enhance the defensive skill of the D group.  

 

And there in lies the problem with your entire take on this. 

What trade capital are you referring too?