Alex Tuch, a key piece in the Eichel trade

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, Weave said:

And this was always the rationale behind the arguments that he could be moved successfully.

 

6 hours ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Sure.  But the outcome doesn't always favor the package over the player, and the Sabres have been both perpetrators and victims of that.

I didn't think there was no solution to move forward, but there was an entire universe of bad ideas possible.  I'm glad KA held the line and didn't compromise the return on paper- because it initially appears to have worked.

When analyzing trades we also don’t get to simply add up all the production from the package of players and compare it to one individual - never has worked like that. The roster spots after Jack are still filled with additional players after the trade, one player doesn’t now fulfill the roles of 2/3 guys. 

If you trade a 100 point scorer for 5 20 point guys, it’s not “equal”. This is where the “team that gets best player wins trade” saying comes from. Now I don’t believe that saying to necessarily be true either, full stop: mostly I’ll just look at the macro of where the team gets to, I suppose  

[Thorner]

16 hours ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Notes on some numbers.  If it wasn't obvious, Tuch is absolutely balling out right now.

His production rates lead the Sabres and he's among top-of-the-league in several categories (among players with more than 100mins 5v5 played):

Total Assists/60 - 4th most with 2.4

First assists/60 - 5th most with 1.71

Total points/60 - 7th most with 3.43

For reference, peak Eichel was 1.6, 1.03, and 2.43, respectively (again 5v5, no PP).

Tuch's 3.43 5v5 P/60 is the most we've seen from a Sabres since sometime before 2007 (database limit).  He's killing it at even strength play in a franchise-historical way.

If anyone was worried that we were trading away the now for the future by trading away Eichel, Tuch should be helping you sleep a little better.  And then add Krebs whose 1.25G/60 over his 11 games, if sustained, would be 32nd most in the league and constitute first line scoring production.  And then add the 1st and a 2nd, which would be 21st and 53rd overall based on today's standings.

Now, I'm not saying Tuch or Krebs or the 1st or 2nd are as complete players as Eichel.  But the aggregate production of the package return may be able to accomplish more than the individual.

This is what I mean by “it’s only 13 games”.

The bold isn’t true. It’s not the most we’ve seen from a Sabres since 2007, not close.  Not over a 13 game sample size. Eichel had point streaks that annihilated this run from Tuch

Taking the aggregate for a player over a full season vs this small sample size doesn’t put it in proper context, not when an incorrect context (“franchise historical”) is being deliberately used 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This is what I mean by “it’s only 13 games”.

The bold isn’t true. It’s not the most we’ve seen from a Sabres since 2007, not close.  Not over a 13 game sample size. Eichel had point streaks that annihilated this run from Tuch

Taking the aggregate for a player over a full season vs this small sample size doesn’t put it in proper context, not when an incorrect context (“franchise historical”) is being deliberately used 

That's not a sample by games played, it's by primary points per 60 minutes. 

Ev/P60

[Thorner]

It’s not to take away from what Tuch is doing. What Tuch has done to start *is* impressive.

 It’s just not fair to say it’s franchise historic, it’s simply not accurate.

For example, in the 2019-2020 season, Eichel on his 17 game point streak had an even strength points per 60 of 3.88, higher than Tuch’s 3.43 during this 13 games.

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

That's not a sample by games played, it's by primary points per 60 minutes. 

Ev/P60

It’s Tuch’s sample over a 13 game stretch. See above

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

It’s not to take away from what Tuch is doing. What Tuch has done to start *is* impressive.

 It’s just not fair to say it’s franchise historic, it’s simply not accurate.

For example, in the 2019-2020 season, Eichel on his 17 game point streak had an even strength points per 60 of 3.88, higher than Tuch’s 3.43 during this 13 games.

It’s Tuch’s sample over a 13 game stretch. See above

I understand where it comes from but it's not being measured in games played. It's being measured in EV/P60

Not arguing who's right just want us all to talk in the same language basically

[Thorner]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

I understand where it comes from but it's not being measured in games played. It's being measured in EV/P60

I see what you are saying and you are correct - but it doesn’t change my point. It’s still measuring points per 60 within a specific sample size

Jack performed better within that metric for a larger time frame than Tuch did/has

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I understand where it comes from but it's not being measured in games played. It's being measured in EV/P60

Not arguing who's right just want us all to talk in the same language basically

You are right my language was off

[klos1963]

Gonna be interesting in a couple weeks, as it looks like Eichel is getting ready to start contact during practice. DeBoer says the Eichel has been the best player on the ice during practice.  I think he's just gonna dominate with Vegas.

[Taro T]

27 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

Gonna be interesting in a couple weeks, as it looks like Eichel is getting ready to start contact during practice. DeBoer says the Eichel has been the best player on the ice during practice.  I think he's just gonna dominate with Vegas.

When he was healthy, something we haven't really seen since ~ December '19, he did that in Buffalo.  No reason to expect anything less on a better team.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

It’s 13 games.

Also the entire Twitter Sabres narrative is shaped by Chad and Kevin I’m hoping sabrespace remains independent lol

Well, if Terry flips me a couple of those nifty "BS" hats and a misspelled alumni jersey...

I make no promises.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

It’s 13 games.

Also the entire Twitter Sabres narrative is shaped by Chad and Kevin I’m hoping sabrespace remains independent lol

I've noticed this actually. 

[dudacek]

So @pi2000 needs a Twitter account?

[Thorner]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So @pi2000 needs a Twitter account?

Or you 

[JohnC]

20 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

When analyzing trades we also don’t get to simply add up all the production from the package of players and compare it to one individual - never has worked like that. The roster spots after Jack are still filled with additional players after the trade, one player doesn’t now fulfill the roles of 2/3 guys. 

If you trade a 100 point scorer for 5 20 point guys, it’s not “equal”. This is where the “team that gets best player wins trade” saying comes from. Now I don’t believe that saying to necessarily be true either, full stop: mostly I’ll just look at the macro of where the team gets to, I suppose  

I agree with how you calculate the plus/minus in the trade of players. If Jack regains his health and plays at his previous level there is no question that Vegas comes out ahead in the trade. Jack is an elite player who in my mind is a top 15 player in the league. However, given the situation with him wanting out and the GM wanting him out layered on top of the impasse on the surgical procedure the Sabres got a reasonable (not equal) return for him.  

The one positive way of looking at this deal from a Sabre perspective is that by adding a couple of good players in the return who can play now plus the expectation/hope that the future first round pick will be a future contributor the Sabres will be widening the talent base on the NHL roster. The failure to add talent when Jack was here that would have provided him with more support is clearly an organizational and not a player failure. 

Jack made the decision that he needed to be moved. It worked out for him in that he is with a cup contending team. Reinhart also made a decision that he was not going to sign a deal and give up an opportunity to become a UFA in another year. He ended up in a serious cup contender. Which of these two players is more happy? 

Just maybe in a few years if Levi turns out to be a #1 goalie for us the Reinhart can deal turn out to be the most consequential deal for us from the departing core?????

[triumph_communes]

Put a C on a true C. Who cares about talent when nobody would follow it. Got a real leader now boys pack it in. 

[Stoner]

Made up numbers. Games with no meaning in the standings. I don't care.

Call me old school, but I'll look at goals and assists in October.

C? Sure, if the next time Granato accepts an ass reaming from the league with a weak smile, Tuch threatens to disembowel him.

[Doohicksie]

That was a bit harsh, @PASabreFan 😳

[Stoner]

59 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

That was a bit harsh, @PASabreFan 😳

Which part?

[Thorner]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:01 AM, PASabreFan said:

Made up numbers. Games with no meaning in the standings. I don't care.

Call me old school, but I'll look at goals and assists in October.

C? Sure, if the next time Granato accepts an ass reaming from the league with a weak smile, Tuch threatens to disembowel him.

Consistent poster remains consistent in argument. Fair play

[Eleven]

RAK from Tuch

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Eleven

[kas23]

This guy is just a good dude. And I didn’t know the Thunder existed. Extremely glad it does. 

[pi2000]

would eichel do that?

[Derrico]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

would eichel do that?

Now you're just trolling @Thorny

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

would eichel do that?

https://www.wbfo.org/local/2015-07-03/new-sabre-eichel-visits-young-roswell-park-patients

[GoPuckYourself]

I knew he'd be a bright spot, I hope he continues the excellent play. I think a guy like this would be an excellent captain! He reminds me alot of Shane Doan in Arizona all those years, solid player, great dude on and off the ice also would knock the hell out of you if you put your head down for a second and I'm getting those vibes from Tuch.

[Zamboni]

58 minutes ago, Eleven said:

https://www.wbfo.org/local/2015-07-03/new-sabre-eichel-visits-young-roswell-park-patients

And he did that many many many times in his years in Buffalo. And not just Roswell visits.