Jack Eichel and 2023 3rd Traded to Vegas for F Alex Tuch, C Peyton Krebs, 2022 1st Top Ten Protected and 2023 2nd

[triumph_communes]

How long do we have to wait before we can give Tuch the C?  February break?  Playoffs?

[LGR4GM]

Just now, triumph_communes said:

How long do we have to wait before we can give Tuch the C?  February break?  Playoffs?

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

With respect, I don't see either as a problem.  It's no secret that the Sabres are bad and are not the best managed team in the NHL, or even Pee Wee hockey.

What needs to happen right away is that we need stable management that knows a thing or two about running a hockey team and a stable coach that knows how to grow a team of kids into something.  I am hopeful for that.

Once the management is in place then the players will be in place and the team will improve.  Then winning will happen and playoff(s) will happen.  Then players will want to stay here and come here.

One of the major problems that has plagued this organization is the constantly churning of staff. That needs to stop! So far I like what KA has done with respect to assembling a front office and coaching staff. As I stated before I thought his draft was sound and that his return for the players that he dealt was solid. What I'm certainly not going to do is prematurely declare this GM a success. And what I am not going to do is advocate for a change in the front office so early in the GM's tenure. That would only continue the organization's recent  history of turning over the staff. What this organization desperately needs is stability. You do that by giving the staff in place the time required to implement their rebuilding plan. And then you make a judgment about it. 

[LGR4GM]

You have to figure that realistically we've seen 1 offseason of Adams. I'm curious to see more as he has managed to build assets unlike any gm of the past decade. 

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

I have no trouble believing that Terry feels betrayed by Jack, or that for Jack and Terry it became personal.

I give Adams credit for the way he has tried hard - and for the most part successfully - to take a high road around this.

Contrast that to the deadline imposed on the ROR trade and the way JBot crumbled to the Pegulas' pressure, and got a questionable return that turned sour very quickly (Berglund/Sobotka).  I really think the important thing about Adams as GM is that the Pegulas trust his judgment, listen to his reasoning, and he can get them on board with the way he handles various situations.  I personally think Adams comes off poorly in interviews.  I wonder if he's ever had training to help him with public appearances and how to handle questions.  But I think behind the scenes, dealing with the owners and with other GMs around the league he's doing an admirable job.  He's all smarts and no polish, which is a contrast to XGMTM and JBot who looked more polished but couldn't really formulate and implement their plan (and granted, the jury is still out on Adams' ability to do so, but the plan seems more methodical and more consistently executed, at least to me).

Edited November 6, 2021 by The Ghost of Yuri

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Hoss said:

He’s been a monster in the playoffs, I’m excited about that. But he’s also only six months younger than Samson. In the two seasons since his first four (meaning years five and six), Samson is pacing 32 goals and 29 assists per 82 games.

The point is too though, regardless of Sam's output he didn't want to be here.  I like to think Tuch will be a good complimentary piece, a veteran piece to hang onto as Okposo ages out, so to speak, to provide some mature team leadership.

[Doohicksie]

36 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You have to figure that realistically we've seen 1 offseason of Adams. I'm curious to see more as he has managed to build assets unlike any gm of the past decade. 

I'm solidly in Adams' corner, but realistically he traded three of the team's most desirable players away for primarily futures.  He did what Darcy did in the last portion of his tenure, with the promise of suffering before the Sabres would be competitive again.  What Adams has done is not sustainable; we don't have assets like that to trade away anymore.  I'm hopeful, though, that what he is done is transitional.  We're going to have a couple seasons (at least) of suffering.  We all get that, most notably (this time, I hope) the Pegulas.  He's done the demolition, that's the easy part.  Can he put it all back together... better... stronger... faster?

Edited November 6, 2021 by The Ghost of Yuri

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

I think it also put Krebs solidly into the package.

Think about it:  If Adams leaked ZERO information during this whole process and saved that for the end when he knew he was close, and gave his buddy (Kevin Weekes) one scoop that was BS and Weekes reported it (whether or not Weekes knew it was BS), and it pushed Vegas to include Krebs.... that was a genius master stroke by Adams.

[K-9]

49 minutes ago, JohnC said:

One of the major problems that has plagued this organization is the constantly churning of staff. That needs to stop! So far I like what KA has done with respect to assembling a front office and coaching staff. As I stated before I thought his draft was sound and that his return for the players that he dealt was solid. What I'm certainly not going to do is prematurely declare this GM a success. And what I am not going to do is advocate for a change in the front office so early in the GM's tenure. That would only continue the organization's recent  history of turning over the staff. What this organization desperately needs is stability. You do that by giving the staff in place the time required to implement their rebuilding plan. And then you make a judgment about it. 

I was a little miffed that the churning didn’t stop with Bylsma because that team flat out quit on him when he asked for more. I was more than glad that it churned for Housley and Krueger, however. Now those teams quit on the coach as well, but they both needed to go, regardless. As for GMs, I need not say more for TM as he both brought in the wrong vets and mortgaged the future in the process. I’ll just say JBotts lacked GM savvy and leave it at that. 

It sucks that there was frequent churning, but once it’s apparent you got it wrong, you have to move on. And the quicker, the better. 

[SwampD]

47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You have to figure that realistically we've seen 1 offseason of Adams. I'm curious to see more as he has managed to build assets unlike any gm of the past decade. 

(Cough)

[kas23]

I think KA has proven that he is at least competent. There’s nothing obviously wrong with that way he is approaching his GM duties. Considering he was promoted within and thoroughly vetted, I don’t think there’s going to be integrity or character issues that are going to pop up. Based on this, while we don’t know whether this will translate into success, I do think he has earned the benefit of doubt to stick around for at least 5 years. Of course, he will sink of swim based on Granato (ie his ability to develop talent). I don’t think it’s going to be due to his ability to build a team. 

[Doohicksie]

9 minutes ago, SwampD said:

(Cough)

Since you can't put two reactions on a single post, I need an actual post for this:

[Trettioåtta]

I really liked how Alex came across in his press conference

[Hoss]

53 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

The point is too though, regardless of Sam's output he didn't want to be here.  I like to think Tuch will be a good complimentary piece, a veteran piece to hang onto as Okposo ages out, so to speak, to provide some mature team leadership.

No. This is not the point. Someone mentioned Tuch is Samson. Tuch is not Samson. My point is limited exclusively to that. I did not expand beyond that.

Your post is fine and good, but it has nothing to do with the conversation about who the better player is.

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

They don't produce at the SAME rate, but I think you can say their production is indeed similar:

 

Since the start of their career, per 82 games:

Sam:  24.0 goals, 29.5 assists

Tuch:  19.6 goals, 25.0 assists

 

That is just per game played. Tuch did his with less ice time and a LOT less PP time:

Per 60 minutes:

Sam:  0.73 goals per 60,  1.69 points per 60

Tuch 0.76 gals per 60, 1.83 pionts per 60.

In terms of their production, per 60 is the purest measure how how someone produces per time on ice...and Tuch is actually slightly better than Sam (but similar)

 

Over 34% of Sams goals were on the PP. Only 19.6% of Tuch's were.  The primary reason is Tuch got about 50% less PP time than Sam. But back out those numbers....Tuch is actually a more productive scorer even strength than Sam...and with more PP time his PP goal totals would likely go up.

Even Strength Sam produced  .193 goals per game even strenth. Tuch produced .196.  And Tuch did it with less minutes per game.

Even Strength goals per 60:   Sam .642,   Tuch .741

 

Overall I think it is totally fair to say they produced at a similar rate. I many aspects (most actually other than on the Power play), Tuch can be said to produce at a slightly higher rate than Sam.

Samson’s recent uptick sets him apart from Tuch production wise. Nine points per 82 across their entire careers is not an insignificant difference on its own but Samson’s last two seasons make the gap wider.

Per 60 is a useful stat but to use it in this context is to assume Tuch would be able to produce more and up his game with an increased role. We’ve seen time and time again that’s now how hockey works. I hope he’s able to do so, but we’ll see.

My assumption is Tuch will have a good career here and be in the range of a 50-point player when all is said and done here. I’m excited to have him. I wouldn’t trade Samson for him one-for-one if I had the choice.

[Doohicksie]

You know, goals like this, posted in another thread....

7 hours ago, SDS said:

really mean nothing to me.  Yeah, it's a pretty goal, but what did it mean, in a period when the Sabres played exactly Zero playoff games?  Thanks Jack, for all the nothing you led the team to achieve.

Edited November 6, 2021 by The Ghost of Yuri

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

I'm solidly in Adams' corner, but realistically he traded three of the team's most desirable players away for primarily futures.  He did what Darcy did in the last portion of his tenure, with the promise of suffering before the Sabres would be competitive again.  What Adams has done is not sustainable; we don't have assets like that to trade away anymore.  I'm hopeful, though, that what he is done is transitional.  We're going to have a couple seasons (at least) of suffering.  We all get that, most notably (this time, I hope) the Pegulas.  He's done the demolition, that's the easy part.  Can he put it all back together... better... stronger... faster?

Adams did not do what Darcy unless you use the shallowest possible definition. Both traded players for picks

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Adams did not do what Darcy unless you use the shallowest possible definition. Both traded players for picks

You make a good point.  The scope of Adams' trades was nowhere near the scope of what Darcy did. 

[calti]

1 hour ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Think about it:  If Adams leaked ZERO information during this whole process and saved that for the end when he knew he was close, and gave his buddy (Kevin Weekes) one scoop that was BS and Weekes reported it (whether or not Weekes knew it was BS), and it pushed Vegas to include Krebs.... that was a genius master stroke by Adams.

Krebs is the intruiging one in this whole deal. Guy is a scorer.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

He's changed his avatar to some dog and goes by the Ghost of Yuri.  He started the whole ghost thing.  You want in?  The next Ghost is that of Andrew Amerk (who is now the Ghost of NS).

Oh man, I didn’t know.  I didn’t even see the FW location.  
 

In addition, I almost put you on ignore awhile back, for some reason the Ghost of Yuri came off as a Punch hater to me. 

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Tuch put up all those numbers on a third line. Sam did it with Eichel. Tuch is a better player y’all just in denial 

Totally different players.  Tuch is bigger, more physical, and he has to work relentlessly to score.  Sam has more natural hockey skill, he can pass and control play better.  
 

 

[Curt]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:08 AM, SDS said:

I wonder what the chances are for either of these two players to be disgruntled upon coming over? I wonder if we got to speak with them at all?

 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

How long do we have to wait before we can give Tuch the C?  February break?  Playoffs?

He has to play and he has to earn it.  The rest of the team has to see him as the leader.   Let Granato handle it. He will know the right guy to wear the C.  
 

Being big and being from Syracuse is not enough.  

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Contrast that to the deadline imposed on the ROR trade and the way JBot crumbled to the Pegulas' pressure, and got a questionable return that turned sour very quickly (Berglund/Sobotka).  I really think the important thing about Adams as GM is that the Pegulas trust his judgment, listen to his reasoning, and he can get them on board with the way he handles various situations.  I personally think Adams comes off poorly in interviews.  I wonder if he's ever had training to help him with public appearances and how to handle questions.  But I think behind the scenes, dealing with the owners and with other GMs around the league he's doing an admirable job.  He's all smarts and no polish, which is a contrast to XGMTM and JBot who looked more polished but couldn't really formulate and implement their plan (and granted, the jury is still out on Adams' ability to do so, but the plan seems more methodical and more consistently executed, at least to me).

A good GM has to have some crust.   I think Adams is far more polished than Murray, who had zero charisma.  I think Adams is handling himself just fine.  Learning on the fly and doing it with constant rules coming from above.  

[Doohicksie]

57 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Oh man, I didn’t know.  I didn’t even see the FW location.  
 

In addition, I almost put you on ignore awhile back, for some reason the Ghost of Yuri came off as a Punch hater to me. 

Oh I remember that.  Whatever it was, you were SOOOOO WRONG.  😄