Jack Eichel and 2023 3rd Traded to Vegas for F Alex Tuch, C Peyton Krebs, 2022 1st Top Ten Protected and 2023 2nd

[z-man]

I'm excited about what we got back in the deal, and glad it's all over.

I think my only somewhat productive comment I could add to this discussion is something I think about all the time with the Bills and where they are at now: good teams don't necessarily start with big names, and big names don't make good teams. For years the Bills signed free agents who wound up underperforming when they got to Buffalo. The Sabres have done the same. 

When you focus on building a team and culture up and down the roster (and pipeline in the case of Hockey) rather than fitting a collection of talents into a "system," you wind up with guys that will play better than they might go on to do elsewhere if they were to leave...in essence, a lot of your team winds up becoming the very big names you once sought, as a product of their environment. Inevitably, some may leave in free agency, and go on to underperform elsewhere.

Obviously, you need good hockey players -- you can't make something out of nothing. And we've certainly got some promising talent in the system. We're probably not going to have another player of Eichel's "no-doubt" elite talent just fall into our lap, but who knows what happens if we take some swings on high upside but less certain prospects and put them into the right environment to grow. How many guys did we pass up in drafts who are now top 20 players in the league?

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, MODO Hockey said:

Lack of trying no, lack of experiance yes, lack of common sense yes.

I agree 100% that they gave him 3 coaches, 2 of them absolute trash, to be precise. Who knows, i sure as hell dont, but i would figure that if we had a coach that could actually coach then this would never been a problem, but im just a spectator in this mess with my own experiance and media as knowledge book.

Jack is a sensational player, one of the very best i've ever seen playing on this level with everything against him. This org doesnt know how to hire a coach, that is obvious. We win some games and people think don is a great coach, he might actually be the best coach so far but im not convinced and will probably never be. There is no chance that this team reaches playoff and people that believe that is bloody stupid, that is my firm belief. I've said it so many times, until this org hires a real coach things will never ever change. 

 

There needs to be a real GM before there is a real coach.

Maybe Adams & Granato are those.  Jury remains out.  Have to hope they are because this walk in the desert reaches Bills levels of longevity if they aren't.

[K-9]

19 minutes ago, MODO Hockey said:

Lack of trying no, lack of experiance yes, lack of common sense yes.

I agree 100% that they gave him 3 coaches, 2 of them absolute trash, to be precise. Who knows, i sure as hell dont, but i would figure that if we had a coach that could actually coach then this would never been a problem, but im just a spectator in this mess with my own experiance and media as knowledge book.

Jack is a sensational player, one of the very best i've ever seen playing on this level with everything against him. This org doesnt know how to hire a coach, that is obvious. We win some games and people think don is a great coach, he might actually be the best coach so far but im not convinced and will probably never be. There is no chance that this team reaches playoff and people that believe that is bloody stupid, that is my firm belief. I've said it so many times, until this org hires a real coach things will never ever change. 

 

I can respect that, MODO. Although I think you could drop the greatest coach in the history of the game behind bench of this current group, and he would struggle mightily. Sooner or later, talent MUST trump heart, hustle, and strategy. 
 

Regardless, it’s nice to be able to respond to a MODO post and I hope you’re doing well. 

[LGR4GM]

The Sabres are not talented enough for any coach to win consistently and this has been a problem going back to 2012. 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

I have found the near entirety of the the 7-10yrs of Sabres rosters quite unlikeable. 
 

Cozens might get me.  Mule was on his way to getting me.  We’ll see.

Agreed.  Who the hell is Mule?

23 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The Sabres are not talented enough for any coach to win consistently and this has been a problem going back to 2012. 

In 2 years, this may not be the case.  Until then, I don’t see much changing. As long as Donny keeps showing progress and ices and entertaining bunch, fans may tolerate it. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 minutes ago, inkman said:

Agreed.  Who the hell is Mule?

In 2 years, this may not be the case.  Until then, I don’t see much changing. As long as Donny keeps showing progress and ices and entertaining bunch, fans may tolerate it. 

Gerbe

[Andrew Amerk]

56 minutes ago, z-man said:

I'm excited about what we got back in the deal, and glad it's all over.

I think my only somewhat productive comment I could add to this discussion is something I think about all the time with the Bills and where they are at now: good teams don't necessarily start with big names, and big names don't make good teams. For years the Bills signed free agents who wound up underperforming when they got to Buffalo. The Sabres have done the same. 

When you focus on building a team and culture up and down the roster (and pipeline in the case of Hockey) rather than fitting a collection of talents into a "system," you wind up with guys that will play better than they might go on to do elsewhere if they were to leave...in essence, a lot of your team winds up becoming the very big names you once sought, as a product of their environment. Inevitably, some may leave in free agency, and go on to underperform elsewhere.

Obviously, you need good hockey players -- you can't make something out of nothing. And we've certainly got some promising talent in the system. We're probably not going to have another player of Eichel's "no-doubt" elite talent just fall into our lap, but who knows what happens if we take some swings on high upside but less certain prospects and put them into the right environment to grow. How many guys did we pass up in drafts who are now top 20 players in the league?

So, basically the current Tampa Bay Lightning model?

Edited November 5, 2021 by The Ghost of NS

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Just now, The Ghost of NS said:

So, basically the current Tampa Bay Lightning model?

Hey Ghost,

How you doin?

[Andrew Amerk]

Just now, The Ghost of Doohickie said:

Hey Ghost,

How you doin?

Just doing what Ghosts do. 

How about you Ghost?

[I-90 W]

The big question is, will he be back on the ice by 3/10, and how will he be received? I don’t suspect a warm welcoming, though some type of tribute video to him from the organ-eye-zation before the game wouldn’t surprise me.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, The Ghost of NS said:

Just doing what Ghosts do. 

How about you Ghost?

I hear ya, my friend.

Same old, same old. 

How's the old gang down at the grave yard?

I ran into the @The Ghost of Yuri the other day.  He looks great and says hi.

[Doohicksie]

But can a ghost really run into another ghost?  It's more "run through."

[Andrew Amerk]

13 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

But can a ghost really run into another ghost?  It's more "run through."

It’s quite common for a ghost to run into another ghost and share some booze. 

[SabresVet]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

There needs to be a real GM before there is a real coach.

Maybe Adams & Granato are those.  Jury remains out.  Have to hope they are because this walk in the desert reaches Bills levels of longevity if they aren't.

I wasn't enamored with hiring Adams given his complete lack of front office experience.  And especially, at that time, with little around him to assist. 

But he owns it now - his assistants are largely in place.  He's pulled the trigger on trading the guys who wanted out.  This is his roster, albeit many of the prospects/NHL level guys are from previous regimes.  He's hired his HC.  

At yesterday's PC, he didn't want to talk about when things need to come together.  Certainly, I wouldn't commit to a timeline in front of the media, but they had better have an internal one.  That, and rebuilds don't have to take 3-4 seasons if properly executed.  We'll know a lot more by the end of the 2022-23 season.   

 

[mjd1001]

7 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

I wasn't enamored with hiring Adams given his complete lack of front office experience.  And especially, at that time, with little around him to assist. 

But he owns it now - his assistants are largely in place.  He's pulled the trigger on trading the guys who wanted out.  This is his roster, albeit many of the prospects/NHL level guys are from previous regimes.  He's hired his HC.  

At yesterday's PC, he didn't want to talk about when things need to come together.  Certainly, I wouldn't commit to a timeline in front of the media, but they had better have an internal one.  That, and rebuilds don't have to take 3-4 seasons if properly executed.  We'll know a lot more by the end of the 2022-23 season.   

 

He will have flexibility in building this roster, that is for sure.

I was surprised when I looked into it...the D-men under contract for next year currently with the Sabres?  Dahlin and Jokiharju. That is it.  Bryson is restricted, but that is all you have.

Of the 12 Forwards, you look to bring back, only about half are under contract.

Goalies? 2 new ones next year also.

This will be a vastly different team next year. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by mjd1001

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

The Sabres are not talented enough for any coach to win consistently and this has been a problem going back to 2012. 

We know they're not talented enough it's the poor effort for long stretches that's concerning which should be addressed by the coach.    

If they play hard and lose we'd all be OK with it.

Edited November 5, 2021 by pi2000

[pi2000]

3 hours ago, Hoss said:

He’s not just a “good player” and he’s never had anywhere near the talent he has around him now. I don’t know how you can even try to compare it.

If the Eichel first turns out to be a bust that contributes nothing that certainly doesn’t help this deal.

He's had talent around him, he just didn't make anybody better which somebody of his pedigree should be doing.

Sure, if he gets back to full health he'll add some offensive firepower... but along with that comes the lazy line changes, looking up to the rafters when something doesn't go right, a defensive liability, etc...

[LGR4GM]

40 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

He's had talent around him, he just didn't make anybody better which somebody of his pedigree should be doing.

Sure, if he gets back to full health he'll add some offensive firepower... but along with that comes the lazy line changes, looking up to the rafters when something doesn't go right, a defensive liability, etc...

The team was significantly better with Eichel on the ice then when he was not. 

[Buffalonill]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

He's had talent around him, he just didn't make anybody better which somebody of his pedigree should be doing.

Sure, if he gets back to full health he'll add some offensive firepower... but along with that comes the lazy line changes, looking up to the rafters when something doesn't go right, a defensive liability, etc...

[mjd1001]

56 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The team was significantly better with Eichel on the ice then when he was not. 

For some of us, the issue wasn't that the team was not better with him on the ice. It was the 'significant' part.

  Was Eichel significantly more TALENTED than the rest of the team? Yes.  Did he show periods of time where he executed on that talent? Yes.  But overall, the team may have been better with him on the ice....but it wasn't significantly better enough of the time.  Certainly not to the level that you would expect out of a 2nd overall pick/Semi-generationally labeled talent that was getting paid over 12% of your entire cap space.

At least that is how I feel.  It might not be all his fault, just when he was drafted a lot of us bought into the hype of 'almost McDavid' and the interview with Tim Murray where Eichel himself said he thought he was the best player in the draft...etc, etc.

Edited November 5, 2021 by mjd1001

[Weave]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

Agreed.  Who the hell is Mule?

Samuelsson

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Samuelsson

SaMUELsson.  Get it, @inkman?

[inkman]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Samuelsson

 

Sorry your coworkers saw my tiddies the other day 

Just now, The Ghost of Yuri said:

SaMUELsson.  Get it, @inkman?

Who was the athlete they called donkey because he had a big crank? I think it was a Cleveland Indian. 

[Curt]

15 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

For some of us, the issue wasn't that the team was not better with him on the ice. It was the 'significant' part.

  Was Eichel significantly more TALENTED than the rest of the team? Yes.  Did he show periods of time where he executed on that talent? Yes.  But overall, the team may have been better with him on the ice....but it wasn't significantly better enough of the time.  Certainly not to the level that you would expect out of a 2nd overall pick/Semi-generationally labeled talent that was getting paid over 12% of your entire cap space.

At least that is how I feel.  It might not be all his fault, just when he was drafted a lot of us bought into the hype of 'almost McDavid' and the interview with Tim Murray where Eichel himself said he thought he was the best player in the draft...etc, etc.

Over the past 6 seasons, the difference in performance between the Buffalo Sabres with and Without Eichel on the ice has been statistically massive.  Literally greater than any other player/team.  I don’t have the information in front of me, but I saw it recently.

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

The team was significantly better with Eichel on the ice then when he was not. 

career -70

I know I know plus/minus is meaningless blah blah blah....

nonetheless, at even strength, they gave up more goals than they scored with him on the ice.

Edited November 5, 2021 by pi2000