Jack Eichel and 2023 3rd Traded to Vegas for F Alex Tuch, C Peyton Krebs, 2022 1st Top Ten Protected and 2023 2nd

[K-9]

31 minutes ago, MODO Hockey said:

Some things is obviously not ment to be regarding this team, but to me this whole thing with Jack is a diaster deluxe. So no, i dont like the trade at all. And that has nothing to do with what Sabres got back, it's about that Sabres just lost the most talanted player they had for a very long time. Speculating is the only thing possible here, and i firmly believe that Jack wanted this to much and Sabres never gave him the oportunity and the tools he needed to succeed as a generational talant. 

If he gets healthy im pretty sure he will bring the cup home to vegas and for his sake i really hope so, i just feel grumpy over this trade, we gonna see yet another season without playoffs and jack will most likely play his first.

Per the bold, do you feel this was for lack of trying? Because three coaches, three GMs, and a boatload of additions and subtractions to the roster while he was here certainly suggests they tried like hell to get him the tools. 
 

They turned out to be the wrong tools, but nobody could know that except with the luxury of retrospect. 

[LabattBlue]

Can’t remember where I saw, but it was mentioned that John may have his surgery done in the next week or so. 

[Hoss]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

I think the chances it may have altered the return significantly does bear conversation:

And if he's ending conversations "quickly", I'd imagine even Kevyn Adams doesn't know exactly what could have been had 

This is certainly one of those “what ifs” that could stick with the front office/Pegulas for a while.

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

This is certainly one of those “what ifs” that could stick with the front office/Pegulas for a while.

Kind of liking trading ROR before they had to pay his bonus? 😉

[Palm Trees And Taxes]

If there is one point that should be taken from this trade its this in regards to today's NHL:

Cap space IS King.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Ruff Around The Edges

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Friedman just told Marek that Krebs was always a player Buffalo targeted and that he was put on the table about a week  ago.

He spoke to Jack face-to-face this morning. Clips coming later.

Interview was scheduled before the trade happened and he thinks it would have gone a lot differently if it had not. Suggested the desire to avoid that may have helped close the deal.

I bet this is the “outside pressure” the Sabres felt. Probably knew the Eichel interview was coming and didn’t want to deal with the press.

[Huckleberry]

I always said I wanted more in return for Jack Eichel than what Colorado got for Duchene.

Duchene got -  Sam Girard / 1st round pick (byram / 28th pick in 2017 Bowers / Kamenev (think he is in KHL) / 2nd round pick NAS / 3rd round pick OTT / Goalie Hammond as throw in 

Jack Eichel got us - 2022 1st (byram) / Tuch (Girard) / Krebs (Bowers) / 2nd pick /  and we send a 3rd round pick away. 

In what world is Jack worth less than Duchene though ? I would have liked an extra piece 2024 1st rounder or something.   Not wanting to retain salary might have reduced what we got, but you don't want to be paying Jack 5 years from now still.  

But what I really think made the offers much less is the surgery, there is no doubt in my mind most of our possible trading partners agreed with buffalo team doctors and we were probably down to 2 teams willing to do the ADR.     The flames rumour about Tkachuck might have made the knights blink and make the deal.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

This is certainly one of those “what ifs” that could stick with the front office/Pegulas for a while.

For people who think KA and the rest of the front office are a bunch of inept clowns yeah, they will dig deep into the total conjecture well for a long, long time. 
 

For people who understand the importance of maintaining optimal cap flexibility for critical decisions that will need to need to be made in the near future, not so much. 

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Not strictly part of the trade, but...

 

So they DID take a cap dump as part of the deal.

[thewookie1]

3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

This is certainly one of those “what ifs” that could stick with the front office/Pegulas for a while.

Depends really, if most teams wanted 3 mil + then I too would of made it a nonstarter. 
 

I’d be angry if we refused to retain for 2 years but I certainly understand the unwillingness to retain for 5. After all, even Krebs, Cozens, Dahlin, etc of ELCs and bridges would come up still before the 5 year time frame. Add in the unknown of what the cap will be in 5 years and it becomes a value in of itself.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

I always said I wanted more in return for Jack Eichel than what Colorado got for Duchene.

Duchene got -  Sam Girard / 1st round pick (byram / 28th pick in 2017 Bowers / Kamenev (think he is in KHL) / 2nd round pick NAS / 3rd round pick OTT / Goalie Hammond as throw in 

Jack Eichel got us - 2022 1st (byram) / Tuch (Girard) / Krebs (Bowers) / 2nd pick /  and we send a 3rd round pick away. 

In what world is Jack worth less than Duchene though ? I would have liked an extra piece 2024 1st rounder or something.   Not wanting to retain salary might have reduced what we got, but you don't want to be paying Jack 5 years from now still.  

But what I really think made the offers much less is the surgery, there is no doubt in my mind most of our possible trading partners agreed with buffalo team doctors and we were probably down to 2 teams willing to do the ADR.     The flames rumour about Tkachuck might have made the knights blink and make the deal.

A world in which Jack has a potentially career threatening injury, is getting a first if it’s kind procedure in hockey to correct it, and won’t be available for several months as a result. That kind of world.

[Hoss]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

For people who think KA and the rest of the front office are a bunch of inept clowns yeah, they will dig deep into the total conjecture well for a long, long time. 
 

For people who understand the importance of maintaining optimal cap flexibility for critical decisions that will need to need to be made in the near future, not so much. 

There’s no need for this. It’s a worthy thought one way or the other. I don’t believe this team is going to be spending so close to the cap that retaining $1-3M on Eichel for five years was going to be a difference maker. No chance I would’ve retained $5M unless the return was essentially double what they got from Vegas, but that’s obviously not set in reality.

3 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Depends really, if most teams wanted 3 mil + then I too would of made it a nonstarter. 
 

I’d be angry if we refused to retain for 2 years but I certainly understand the unwillingness to retain for 5. After all, even Krebs, Cozens, Dahlin, etc of ELCs and bridges would come up still before the 5 year time frame. Add in the unknown of what the cap will be in 5 years and it becomes a value in of itself.

You have to retain for the entire contract - can’t just retain a few years.

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

I always said I wanted more in return for Jack Eichel than what Colorado got for Duchene.

Duchene got -  Sam Girard / 1st round pick (byram / 28th pick in 2017 Bowers / Kamenev (think he is in KHL) / 2nd round pick NAS / 3rd round pick OTT / Goalie Hammond as throw in 

Jack Eichel got us - 2022 1st (byram) / Tuch (Girard) / Krebs (Bowers) / 2nd pick /  and we send a 3rd round pick away. 

In what world is Jack worth less than Duchene though ? I would have liked an extra piece 2024 1st rounder or something.   Not wanting to retain salary might have reduced what we got, but you don't want to be paying Jack 5 years from now still.  

But what I really think made the offers much less is the surgery, there is no doubt in my mind most of our possible trading partners agreed with buffalo team doctors and we were probably down to 2 teams willing to do the ADR.     The flames rumour about Tkachuck might have made the knights blink and make the deal.

I've no idea, but Emily Kaplan gave an interview on ESPN's The Point. I may have misheard, but it sounded to me like she thought the Sabres were the only team that really had a problem with ADR.

Same show said Eichel will probably get the surgery in the next few days. Eichel gave an interview, pretty mellow, said only good things about Buffalo. May be insincere, I dunno, but was decent enough, imo.

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

If there is one point that should be taken from this trade its this in regards to today's NHL:

Cap space IS King.

Should have given Krebs and Tuch to us for free, then 

😉

[Hoss]

I’ve been playing a lot of catch-up so I’m not sure if this was posted but: the picks move back a year if the Vegas pick doesn’t translate this season (meaning if it ends up top 10). In that scenario, the Vegas first becomes 2023, their second becomes 2024 and our third becomes 2024.

[K-9]

Just now, Hoss said:

There’s no need for this. It’s a worthy thought one way or the other. I don’t believe this team is going to be spending so close to the cap that retaining $1-3M on Eichel for five years was going to be a difference maker. No chance I would’ve retained $5M unless the return was essentially double what they got from Vegas, but that’s obviously not set in reality.

No need for what? To point out that people will keep condemning KA for not taking back salary no matter what? Or to point out that there is a very good REAL reason and strategy not to?
 

Sorry, but the the former group bases their entire argument on conjecture. 
 

The latter group readily sees the REAL reason why cap flexibility is critical moving forward. 

[Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, steveoath said:

What happens to Eichel the first time he plays against the Tom Wilsons/Claude Lemuiexs of this world who target his neck? For me that would be one of the biggest worries. 

What happens to his playing level when he avoids contact all together.

[PromoTheRobot]

15 minutes ago, Hoss said:

This is certainly one of those “what ifs” that could stick with the front office/Pegulas for a while.

Things you can't prove either way? Yeah, those are the worst.

I doubt this happens but imagine.

 

[Huckleberry]

14 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Kind of liking trading ROR before they had to pay his bonus? 😉

Nah not at all , In 5 years you could be paying a player 2.5 mill to score against you in the stanley cup final.   Not the same as a one time bonus.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Huckleberry

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

What happens to his playing level when he avoids contact all together.

I think the sheer competitor in Eichel won’t allow that. Highly skilled and fast skaters usually tend to avoid contact, anyway. 

[thewookie1]

10 minutes ago, Hoss said:

There’s no need for this. It’s a worthy thought one way or the other. I don’t believe this team is going to be spending so close to the cap that retaining $1-3M on Eichel for five years was going to be a difference maker. No chance I would’ve retained $5M unless the return was essentially double what they got from Vegas, but that’s obviously not set in reality.

You have to retain for the entire contract - can’t just retain a few years.

Oh I know, I was meaning it as if Eichel had a 2x10mil contract versus 5x10mil contract. That the impact/cost is far different

[Hoss]

6 minutes ago, K-9 said:

No need for what? To point out that people will keep condemning KA for not taking back salary no matter what? Or to point out that there is a very good REAL reason and strategy not to?
 

Sorry, but the the former group bases their entire argument on conjecture. 
 

The latter group readily sees the REAL reason why cap flexibility is critical moving forward. 

There’s a REAL reason to want cap flexibility just like there’s a REAL reason to believe you have to consider all possible options and a REAL reason to think a greater return COULD have trumped cap flexibility.

Just now, thewookie1 said:

Oh I know, I was meaning it as if Eichel had a 2x10mil contract versus 5x10mil contract. That the impact/cost is far different

Understood, for sure. I think Eichel for two years would’ve been an interesting dynamic because teams may have been turned off knowing they’d only have one FULL year.

[LGR4GM]

You can only retain money on a certain number of deals. Idk why everyone forgets that's. 

[K-9]

24 minutes ago, Hoss said:

There’s a REAL reason to want cap flexibility just like there’s a REAL reason to believe you have to consider all possible options and a REAL reason to think a greater return COULD have trumped cap flexibility.

Understood, for sure. I think Eichel for two years would’ve been an interesting dynamic because teams may have been turned off knowing they’d only have one FULL year.

Ok, please stack up those “real reasons” for why the Sabres should have retained salary in this deal because all I’ve seen from anyone here is total conjecture about what they could have acquired if they had done so but absent any real facts and that Adams handcuffed a better return by refusing to do so.  Where is the hard evidence for that? What teams, what players, how much retention, for how long? 

I believe Adams and Co. did carefully consider all possible options and decided their reasons for not doing so were sound moving forward. There also have been numerous posts from several people in this thread as to why. I don’t have the energy to rehash them all. 

I’m not saying you specifically, but I find many of these “salary retention” takes just more bullcrap from the same group of biased posters who are just so angry at everything Kevin Adams and Sabres and they just can’t or don’t want to get over their seemingly eternal disappointment. 

17 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You can only retain money on a certain number of deals. Idk why everyone forgets that's. 

Why? Convenience. 

[RETURNTOGLORY]

I'm sad that it had to end BUT:

1) He was not and never should have been a Captain. Not in his DNA. He just wants to play with no additional pressure that the captaincy brings with it. 

2) By all accounts, he was not good in the locker room. His pouting on ice was mirrored behind the closed doors and it affected his teammates.

3) His handling and more so, the way his previous agents handled his injury with lies and sensationalism undermined not only Jack Eichel, but the Sabres organization as a whole and caused irreparable damage.

4) The damage that the Eichel camp caused, IMHO, was purposeful and created an immense "Buyer beware" and hurt the return that the Sabres could expect. 

5) The type of surgery to be selected in the end is the decision of the team per the collective bargaining agreement that the players and their union agreed to .

6) There is no guarantee with ADR surgery or any surgery for that matter. In a perfect world getting back to normal is, depending what source you read,  70 to 85% IN A PERFECT SCENARIO. 

Playing a physical sport like Hockey is untested territory for ADR surgery, for good reason. If you're Joe Blow with a normal semi-sedate lifestyle, odds of re-injury is fairly low. 

Full speed full contact professional Hockey??

KA did everything right here. 

Good job KA!

Good luck JA. I think you're going to need it truthfully.