Similarities & Differences Between Granato & Krueger

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, RangerDave said:

I know nothing about the X's and O's of hockey.  As just a fan, I have noticed that I am not seeing the interminable cycling of the puck back and forth behind the opponent's net like I used to see a lot last year.  It drove me nuts.  This year, not so much.  That, in itself, makes watching the game more enjoyable.  I don't know if it also translates into more aggressive play and therefore more wins or not.

Good point.  Hard to run the "interminable cycle" when 1 or 2 guys are setting up in front of the net waiting for the puck to get there.  Granato's style is way more entertaining.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

How many goals did Hall have here? 1 How about Jack in season 2?  VO’s production went down in year two as well.  He also wasn’t here to know what he would have done prior, but he has 4 goals in 6 games so far this season.  How did Mitts, Thompson, Asplund do under RK? What happened to Sheary, Vesey, Skinner, KO and ERod under RK.  Even Samson wasn’t immune.  His assists and p/gp all fell in year 1 of RK and further eroded in year 2 until DG became the coach.  So yes everyone suffered.

 

Not going to argue this.  It's really getting away from the point of the thread.

[PerreaultForever]

Honestly, I think Krueger was a complete and utter fraud. Talked a good talk, and obviously gave a good interview, able to convince people he knew what he was talking about, but not an actual coach at all. Kind of get the feeling he designed a plan on paper, one that wasn't necessarily wrong in theory, but then had zero ability to adapt those ideas, work on players flaws, correct mistakes, run proper drills and practices and all that other coaching stuff. 

Granato on the other hand is implementing very simple basic schemes and letting his players play them focusing on teamwork and interconnections. But really he's just saying go fast, go hard, get in front of the net and shoot when you have a chance. My hope is it develops as they develop, in time we shall see. imo it's a decent way to start over, which is what was needed. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

 

Not going to argue this.  It's really getting away from the point of the thread.

But it is kind of the point of this thread.  RK took the freedom from our forwards to create and DG gave it back.  

Edited October 27, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Honestly, I think Krueger was a complete and utter fraud. Talked a good talk, and obviously gave a good interview, able to convince people he knew what he was talking about,

I never thought he talked a good talk.  He always sounded like a self-help infomercial guru who is full of *****.  When the team did well for that stretch I figured my cynicism didn't matter, as long as the players bought in. But then the wheels fell off and Krueger no answers.  And the longer it went on, the more full of ***** he sounded.

[Skibum]

I think Granato is the real deal, whereas Kreuger was a used car salesman - all talk and ego, no substance. 

[PerreaultForever]

39 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

I never thought he talked a good talk.  He always sounded like a self-help infomercial guru who is full of *****.  When the team did well for that stretch I figured my cynicism didn't matter, as long as the players bought in. But then the wheels fell off and Krueger no answers.  And the longer it went on, the more full of ***** he sounded.

That's true as it unfolded. I was thinking more of when he was hired and we had player reactions from all those one on one chats and dinners. Everybody seemed enamoured by his words at that point. 

[Pimlach]

I like when Granato talked about playing in layers in our defensive zone.  One player makes an error but someone else is there to cover.  It happened many times against Tampa, which is why we didn’t get pounded.  
 

Ralph talked in vague concepts that I could not visualize in the same manner that I can when Granato talks. When Granato talks you can build a picture of what he says in your head.  The players seems to understand and get him. 
 

Someone else mentioned his high pace, intense practices, where you correct mistakes immediately right on the spot.  I like this.  I remember after he took over the team. Every post game interview he talked about the lack of practice due to the Covid schedule.  He made it clear they needed more and better practice.  Once he got a few practices in you could see them getting better.   I think he communicates his vision in practice, making him a coach that teaches.  When the players see that what he is teaching works it makes them want more.  He builds credibility and they will listen and believe.  After the Tampa game he talked about the players building confidence and as a coach he is doing things to help them build confidence.  
 

I beginning to think he might turn out to be an excellent coach.  

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Everybody seemed enamoured by his words at that point. 

I never was.  I hoped for the best but the guy always struck me as a con man.

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Ralph talked in vague concepts that I could not visualize in the same manner that I can when Granato talks. When Granato talks you can build a picture of what he says in your head.

This.  Agree 1,234%

Edited October 27, 2021 by The Ghost of Yuri

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Taro T

I know you don't want to argue about the RK affect on forwards and offensive D, but I think it does get to the core of the difference between the two coaches.  In today Buffalo New I think they do a very good job on focusing on the differences between the two coaches (I use the term coach for RK out of convenience) and I think that difference is very telling ultimately on the stats.

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/inside-the-sabres-hot-start-the-product-of-coaching-leadership-smart-additions/article_ae9c78c4-3658-11ec-a334-33220551d45b.html

Quote

[Granato] wants quick breakout passes to start the rush and encourages his defensemen to pinch in the offensive zone. In many ways, it’s positionless, read-and-react hockey that allows speed and creativity to shine. It’s yielded encouraging results despite the absence of center Casey Mittelstadt.

Quote

Granato, unlike his predecessor Ralph Krueger, doesn’t have a conservative, defensive-minded system. The Sabres are winning with an aggressive approach, hounding the puck as soon as they lose possession.

 

[Taro T]

20 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Taro T

I know you don't want to argue about the RK affect on forwards and offensive D, but I think it does get to the core of the difference between the two coaches.  In today Buffalo New I think they do a very good job on focusing on the differences between the two coaches (I use the term coach for RK out of convenience) and I think that difference is very telling ultimately on the stats.

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/inside-the-sabres-hot-start-the-product-of-coaching-leadership-smart-additions/article_ae9c78c4-3658-11ec-a334-33220551d45b.html

 

There are oodles of threads where the effects are discussed.  Really hoping that this thread can be about the CAUSES of those effects.  And for the most part, that's what this thread has been.  And if there is actually a specific cause and a specific effect that you want to cover, cool.  But just continually bringing up hyperbolic stuff like "(a)ll offensive players suffered under RK" doesn't really bring any analysis about why/what he tried didn't work.

The items the BN article brings up regarding Granato's style have already been brought up here.  And LL saying that Krueger coached a "conservative defensive-minded system" doesn't exactly break any new ground either.  We've gone FAR more in depth on what both coaches tried to have their players actually do than that article which touched on far more topics w/out going particularly into depth on any of them.  And just on that bit alone, yes, it was a conservative, defensively oriented system but it also was when effective and played as planned fast paced and putting pressure on the puck carrier, limiting space which is not the textbook definition of conservative."  The conservative part was in items such as he didn't want players cheating out to speed the transition should their pressure get the puck back.    He also encouraged them to dump the puck rather than cycle the puck back to the D to regroup for another entry.

The things Krueger had them doing his 1st month in town actually worked.  But they proved to be unsustainable after Hutton went off the rails.  Hoping that what Granato is doing will be more durable.  If we actually break down what it is he's doing, maybe we'll get a sense as to how sustainable it is and what are the things that need to continue for it to be sustainable.

My 2 cents.  YMMV.

[Taro T]

One additional item that Krueger wouldn't have liked but Granato must teach is the D being willing to circle back w/ the puck in their own end while the forwards break out if there isn't a clear quick outlet pass.  They can either send it right up ice from there to the now streaking F's or send it across to there partner for a different look towards the forwards.

[mjd1001]

I'm not sure how much ice time is a difference between them, or more of a reflection of the difference in the Roster this year.  I like to look at ice time to see just what coaches really think of players..and a couple weeks into the season there are a couple things of note:

Defense:

-Dahlin lead D-men in Ice time by far, but he is not at Risto levels of ice time, or even close to the league leaders.  In fact, the there isn't much of a difference between most D-men in ice time.  Granato really does just roll them out there when it is their turn.

-Dahlin gets most of the PP ice time, with Bryson and Miller getting a little, no one else really gets any.

-Hagg and Pysyk get the most PK ice time, Miller and Bryson get a decent amount too. Only Dahlin and Butcher are not used on the PK much at all.

In OT, it is Dahlin and Bryson, and that is really all.

 

Forwards: 

-No forward has over 17:30 minutes of ice time per game played, so again, Granato so far isn't leaning on anyone heavily, he seems to roll out the lines when it is their turn. Olofsson and Tage lead, but not by that much over the rest.

-When you look at PP time, Tage and Olofsson lead there, but there are 8 forwards who get close to even time overall on the PP.

-SH?  Eakin, Girgensons, Bjork, Okposo, and Caggulia...with a little less for Asplund and Ruotsalanian.  No one else.

But just like D-mean, overall everyone dressed gets a chance. If you are dressed for a game, no matter for what reason, you are going to get regular ice time.

 

Forwards:

[inkman]

On 10/26/2021 at 7:56 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Honestly, I think Krueger was a complete and utter fraud. Talked a good talk, and obviously gave a good interview, able to convince people he knew what he was talking about, but not an actual coach at all. Kind of get the feeling he designed a plan on paper, one that wasn't necessarily wrong in theory, but then had zero ability to adapt those ideas, work on players flaws, correct mistakes, run proper drills and practices and all that other coaching stuff. 

Granato on the other hand is implementing very simple basic schemes and letting his players play them focusing on teamwork and interconnections. But really he's just saying go fast, go hard, get in front of the net and shoot when you have a chance. My hope is it develops as they develop, in time we shall see. imo it's a decent way to start over, which is what was needed. 

Ralph really coached low event hockey.  Low chances for, low chances against (supposedly).  It works to an extent when you have great goaltending and finishers.  Neither of which Ralph had much of minus Jack when healthy, Reinhart and Olofsson on the PP. 

Now Donnie is getting high quality scoring chances out of Okposo, Hinestroza and Bjork. Amazing what a difference he’s made.  It’s all us fans wanted.  Fun hockey that competes night in and night out.  I still get mad thinking about how awful the coaching has been for a decade.  

 

 

[bunomatic]

Biggest difference I see is Granato coaches. 

[Thorner]

11 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Biggest difference I see is Granato coaches. 

It was so unfortunate for Ralph when that quote came out from the first game last year, "we'll worry about coaching next game"