Is it too soon to think we might actually be good?

[dudacek]

18 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Granato is a significantly better coach. 

This is generally a hard thing to quantify.

But it’s hard to argue he’s done so much more that Ralph with objectively worse players.

And it’s not just the eye test. All the measurables are saying the same thing and the sample size is growing.

[Thorner]

Just now, dudacek said:

This is generally a hard thing to quantify.

But it’s hard to argue he’s done so much more that Ralph with objectively worse players.

And it’s not just the eye test. All the measurables are saying the same thing and the sample size is growing.

For me it's not, because for me, as much as I like Granato, a big huge part of the gap is how far Ralph was below the mendoza line. I obviously don't have anything against Ralph, I don't know him, and he's had success in smaller sample sizes, but Ralph *never had* an NHL resume before, and the game itself has changed a lot since he even did coach a few games with Edmonton. 

Think of something like the reportedly poor practice tempo. In order to keep up with the pace of today's game, which is always getting faster, they need to be conditioned to do so in practice - not sure that's optional. I don't think it's a stretch to think Ralph was at a significant overall strategy disadvantage when weighted against the league as a whole, and arguably more so in that buzz saw division of last season.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

For me it's not, because for me, as much as I like Granato, a big huge part of the gap is how far Ralph was below the mendoza line. I obviously don't have anything against Ralph, I don't know him, and he's had success in smaller sample sizes, but Ralph *never had* an NHL resume before, and the game itself has changed a lot since he even did coach a few games with Edmonton. 

Think of something like the reportedly poor practice tempo. In order to keep up with the pace of today's game, which is always getting faster, they need to be conditioned to do so in practice - not sure that's optional. I don't think it's a stretch to think Ralph was at a significant overall strategy disadvantage when weighted against the league as a whole, and arguably more so in that buzz saw division of last season.

 No I agree 100 %.

I mean generally it’s hard to objectively “prove” one NHL coach is better than another - Julien is better/worse than Ducharme, for example.

That’s what makes the Granato/Krueger thing so odd in the scope of the NHL. The gap is so easy to prove.

Edited October 23, 2021 by dudacek

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Not your point, but this reminded me of how COVID completely savaged last year’s team.

They were so bad and lifeless, it was moot, but everyone forgets that is when the year turned.

We had one regulation loss in our last 6 before quarantine. We returned to 2 regulation wins in our next 25.

Covid pause & the associated lingering effects.  Ullmark's injury.  Eichel being unable to further battle through injuries.  The unholy trifecta that completely derailed a start that was off-pace, but not by much, last season.

[woods-racer]

Still to soon. 

A 5-1 win over Tampa certainly doesn't kick the *to good can* to the curb.

 

[pastajoe]

The Sabres win when they play to the best of their ability. And even then they need some luck like when Tampa missed a lot of chances in the 2nd period. But they don’t have the skilled players to compete every night with the “good” teams.

[Doohicksie]

15 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

The Sabres win when they play to the best of their ability. And even then they need some luck like when Tampa missed a lot of chances in the 2nd period. But they don’t have the skilled players to compete every night with the “good” teams.

They dominated the Bruins everywhere but the scoreboard.  Tit for tat.

[GASabresIUFAN]

14 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

The Sabres win when they play to the best of their ability. And even then they need some luck like when Tampa missed a lot of chances in the 2nd period. But they don’t have the skilled players to compete every night with the “good” teams.

This team isn’t devoid of talent.  We have 5 top 10 picks, 4 other 1st rd picks, a former Hobey Baker winner and a guy who has scored 39 goals in only 122 games.

[PerreaultForever]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This team isn’t devoid of talent.  We have 5 top 10 picks, 4 other 1st rd picks, a former Hobey Baker winner and a guy who has scored 39 goals in only 122 games.

I think with more time, Cozens might even be able to get Skinner scoring again. The way he plays he is creating some openings for him and there are early signs of some possible meshing together there. 

Bjork, on the other hand is rapidly playing himself off the roster imo. 

[dudacek]

Just now, PerreaultForever said:

. 

Bjork, on the other hand is rapidly playing himself off the roster imo. 

Said the same thing in the Devils game.

He had his wheels going more today, Hayden seemed more in the flow and R2 was battling, but all three of those guys are going to see the press box when Mitts and Eakin get back and should be looking over their shoulders for Quinn and Peterka.

[pastajoe]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This team isn’t devoid of talent.  We have 5 top 10 picks, 4 other 1st rd picks, a former Hobey Baker winner and a guy who has scored 39 goals in only 122 games.

They don’t perform as skilled players, and some aren’t even on the team yet. Potential doesn’t score goals.

14 minutes ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

They dominated the Bruins everywhere but the scoreboard.  Tit for tat.

So the important thing that requires skilled players. 🤔

[Doohicksie]

6 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

They don’t perform as skilled players, and some aren’t even on the team yet. Potential doesn’t score goals.

So the important thing that requires skilled players. 🤔

They had enough skill tonight.

[DarthEbriate]

The Concept of Ehrhoff Moulson is with you, young Sabres. But you are not a good team... yet.

(Now... if the goaltending stays above average and the scoring remains balanced and consistent... then yes, this will be a good team.)

[Marvin]

I am waiting for the midpoint of the season.  If this team keeps playing consistently and hangs in the top 3 for the division, then I will start moving towards conceding.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

The Concept of Ehrhoff Moulson is with you, young Sabres. But you are not a good team... yet.

(Now... if the goaltending stays above average and the scoring remains balanced and consistent... then yes, this will be a good team.)

If Vinny Hinostroza starts lighting the lamp regularly, the sky is the limit!

[pastajoe]

2 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

They had enough skill tonight.

They worked hard, got lucky Tampa missed open nets, played another backup goalie, and got 2 empty net goals. But to say they showed skill compared to the way Tampa dominated the puck control would be wrong.

[French Collection]

Girgs won the draw that led to Hagg’s insurance goal. I thought I heard on the broadcast that he won 11 of 13 face offs.

[Srw1525]

I wanna think they are good and they are definitely playing that way BUT I’m always skeptical and get burned every time they have a good start SO, I’m giving it 20 games to see how they are after 20. But yes they are looking a lot better and Donny is definitely the right coach to coach these guys.

[nucci]

6 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

The Concept of Ehrhoff Moulson is with you, young Sabres. But you are not a good team... yet.

(Now... if the goaltending stays above average and the scoring remains balanced and consistent... then yes, this will be a good team.)

so for now just enjoy this

[mjd1001]

For me it's not a light switch whether they are good or not, how I think of them as a process. At the start of the season before the opener I thought they would be a 65 to 70 point team. Last week I had bumped that up to 75, now I'm thinking they have a chance at being an 80 point team.

As the winter lose throughout the season, evaluations change, but right now I'm hoping for an 80 point team. Is that good? I don't know.

If they go on this Western road trip and lose four in a row I'll be thinking they're back to a 70 point team. I don't think that'll happen though.

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

You got me? Who is this

Thought he was talking Olofsson.

[Doohicksie]

So I looked at some of the various Power Rankings.  Most of them had the Sabres at #32 to start the season, they seem to be at about 18-20 now.  The NHL actually put them at #14.  I would say realistically they're probably in the high teens somewhere, but I also hope they continue to develop and improve and become at least a bubble team come springtime.  Getting Mitts back should help, and I'm sure Granato will continue to tinker with both his system and is line combinations.

[Drag0nDan]

On 10/23/2021 at 4:37 PM, Taro T said:

Covid pause & the associated lingering effects.  Ullmark's injury.  Eichel being unable to further battle through injuries.  The unholy trifecta that completely derailed a start that was off-pace, but not by much, last season.

The absurdly low shooting percentages - likely a symptom of the problem of not driving the net, and not screening enough.  The other issue you didn't mention - 25+ for risto per night, and skinner playing 13 minutes a night on assorted random lines. 

Skinner had 3 points under Krueger in 25 games, and 11 points in 28 games under Granato.

Okposo had 4 points under Krueger in 23 games, and 9 points in 12 games under Granato.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

So I looked at some of the various Power Rankings.  Most of them had the Sabres at #32 to start the season, they seem to be at about 18-20 now.  The NHL actually put them at #14.  I would say realistically they're probably in the high teens somewhere, but I also hope they continue to develop and improve and become at least a bubble team come springtime.  Getting Mitts back should help, and I'm sure Granato will continue to tinker with both his system and is line combinations.

Top 15 or even top 18 is a small stretch right now as they've only played 1 good team that's actually playing well.  But feel comfortable they're top 25 and could easily see them in the top 20 with a decent road trip.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Drag0nDan said:

The absurdly low shooting percentages - likely a symptom of the problem of not driving the net, and not screening enough.  The other issue you didn't mention - 25+ for risto per night, and skinner playing 13 minutes a night on assorted random lines. 

Skinner had 3 points under Krueger in 25 games, and 11 points in 28 games under Granato.

Okposo had 4 points under Krueger in 23 games, and 9 points in 12 games under Granato.

Yes, Krueger did not have any answers to the stated triumvirate that doomed the team to 31st place and what you describe are symptoms of that.  But, give last year's team a healthy Eichel from day 1, an Ullmark that can play the full season rather than missing a month or so, and have the Devils on the schedule mid-Feruary rather than when Covid was ripping through their roster and even being coached by the last guy, that team was better than NHL 0.500 and cursing the fact they got slotted into the toughest of the 4 divisions by far.

Long run, those issues might be blessings in disguise as they significantly changed the team's direction or they were the catalysts to start a 3rd rebuild in 7 or so years when the rebuild was unnecessary.