GDT:The Season Opener! Montreal at Buffalo 10/14/21 7pm MSG, WGR550

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, K-9 said:

Here’s one area I guarantee they will be better at: giving a crap and actually giving maximum effort for 60 minutes ona regular basis. 

This appears to be the case. 

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

You want to defend him, but the fact you cite one season is pretty damning.

This is so tiring when you frame it like this "you want to defend him". It's frustrating because in my very post I mentioned that the consistency was not there until that season. So my argument is clearly coming from a place of my trying to explain the situation as I see it, rather than setting out "to defend him". 

Yes, I cited one season as when he "put it all together", but that was at age, what, 22? That's ridiculously normal for it to take that long, and not damning in the least. 

[SDS]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

It's remarkable how quickly people forget how talented Jack is. He is one of the fastest and most powerful skaters in the league. And when healthy he is a top 15 talent in this league. Anyone who doesn't believe that a healthy Jack doesn't fit in with a Granato coached team is allowing their personal feelings to cloud their objectivity for Jack. 

OK. Now that you’ve doubled down on this then I’m gonna push back. Stop arguing with people who have never said anything what you’re implying. It’s a strawman that no one has said. If you want to go argue with yourself be my guest. You’re not arguing with any single person on this message board regarding his talent. Not a single one. If you’d like to go back and read what I wrote and answer the question that was actually asked. Please be my guest. If you’re gonna post time after time after time about his talent that nobody recognizes then by all means go find a brick wall to yell at.

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

Maybe. He did have an MVP like season. I just have a picture of him in my head and how he’s played over the years and it just looks different than what I saw tonight.

Ya. One thing we have to remember is that, Jack use to be "Jack on the upswing, breakout year exactly in line with MacKinnon's" when we liked him, now he's the sum of his career stats in perception. 

The fact he was *just entering* his prime is ignored to the point of it being in bad faith, at this point, I'd argue 

[Thorner]

Jack *was* what you remember him to be, for the most part. But he was trending into an mvp level player and the fact we are acting like that was likely a blip rather than where the trend was headed is a bit weird, and with all do respect, where a bit of bias is starting to creep in. Because the year wasn't being viewed as a blip back then, it's being framed differently now to fit an argument. *shrug*

Also you should move these posts. Don't belong in the GDT 

[PerreaultForever]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It's remarkable how quickly people forget how talented Jack is. He is one of the fastest and most powerful skaters in the league. And when healthy he is a top 15 talent in this league. Anyone who doesn't believe that a healthy Jack doesn't fit in with a Granato coached team is allowing their personal feelings to cloud their objectivity for Jack. 

Talent isn't everything. He was a crap captain and maybe he's a crap team mate. idk, but what I do know is this team looked like a TEAM tonight and that hasn't been the case for much of Jack's tenure. Not saying that's ALL on him, but there's something different here without him. 

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

Talent isn't everything. He was a crap captain and maybe he's a crap team mate. idk, but what I do know is this team looked like a TEAM tonight and that hasn't been the case for much of Jack's tenure. Not saying that's ALL on him, but there's something different here without him. 

Tonight was great.

We were in first place, multiple times, in season with JE here. And we weren't sitting around saying we didn't look like a team. 

Kids these days. Everything is always the best everrrrr lol. Kidding. Let's just watch it play out. Tonight was super but I'd like to see a bit more before I can say with any confidence it's "different". YMMV. Sample size for me, though. 

[SDS]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ya. One thing we have to remember is that, Jack use to be "Jack on the upswing, breakout year exactly in line with MacKinnon's" when we liked him, now he's the sum of his career stats in perception. 

The fact he was *just entering* his prime is ignored to the point of it being in bad faith, at this point, I'd argue 

I’m certainly not arguing anything in bad faith. I actually think you’re not either grasping what I’m asking or I’m asking it poorly. I’m not questioning anyone’s talent. As far as anyone has ever said this off-season, we have a talentless team. What we saw tonight was relentless effort. My question is if Jack Eichel‘s game fits into a style described as relentless effort. His talent fits in anywhere. The question is if his effort fits in the same places.

I am certainly not the only one who has made this observation over the years.

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, SDS said:

I’m certainly not arguing anything in bad faith. I actually think you’re not either grasping what I’m asking or I’m asking it poorly. I’m not questioning anyone’s talent. As far as anyone has ever said this off-season, we have a talentless team. What we saw tonight was relentless effort. My question is if Jack Eichel‘s game fits into a style described as relentless effort. His talent fits in anywhere. The question is if his effort fits in the same places.

I am certainly not the only one who has made this observation over the years.

I already answered your question specifically though. You're not "asking it poorly" and I'm not failing to grasp your argument, you just aren't reading what I wrote I guess. I said: Jack pushed the pace with his speed many times in 19-20. To my eyes, he had become very capable of playing in the style Granato wants. Further, I said if Granato needed to bridge a "consistency" gap, that's what he's there for. 

Wasn't Sam Reinhart the best player for us last year in Granato's insanely tough to grasp* except for the Hinostrozas of the world System? Sam can play the system but Jack Eichel can't?

Come on man!

*I use the term "grasp" here but I realize you are referring to ability to fit in with the pace he wants to play at, that's what I'm referring to 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Thorny

[klos1963]

11 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Talent isn't everything. He was a crap captain and maybe he's a crap team mate. idk, but what I do know is this team looked like a TEAM tonight and that hasn't been the case for much of Jack's tenure. Not saying that's ALL on him, but there's something different here without him. 

Probably having a good coach.

I think a healthy Eichel would flourish under Granato.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by klos1963

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Talent isn't everything. He was a crap captain and maybe he's a crap team mate. idk, but what I do know is this team looked like a TEAM tonight and that hasn't been the case for much of Jack's tenure. Not saying that's ALL on him, but there's something different here without him. 

Jack's biggest fault is that he desperately wanted to win. And he became visibly frustrated with the incompetence of this organization that kept this franchise mired in the muck of mediocrity. In hindsight it is clear that he shouldn't have been the captain at such an early age. But anyone who denies acknowledging his exceptional talent (when healthy) and what he can contribute to a well coached Granato team is allowing their personal feelings toward him to cloud their judgment about what he can add to this team. 

Jack probably won't play this year. There is still plenty of time to address the Jack issue. So I'm not leaving any option out about him right now. A healthy Jack and a bought in Jack would certainly elevate this team. 

[PromoTheRobot]

The view from the opposition perspective. Entertaining.

Edited October 15, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Richard Noggin]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Talent isn't everything. He was a crap captain and maybe he's a crap team mate. idk, but what I do know is this team looked like a TEAM tonight and that hasn't been the case for much of Jack's tenure. Not saying that's ALL on him, but there's something different here without him. 

Young Jack's "hockey character" clearly didn't foster brotherhood and love of the game for a certain C who immediately went on to flourish elsewhere...

And I'd mostly blame the organization for handing a young, immature prospect such unearned status. No matter what we think of the elite guy he became (and I definitely cheered Eichel's growth as he eventually played with increasing grit and even fought for his teammates), there's no doubt the young prospect was an uncoachable doosh. 

It's all been so mishandled, by everyone involved. 

[Cheektorado]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I already answered your question specifically though. You're not "asking it poorly" and I'm not failing to grasp your argument, you just aren't reading what I wrote I guess. I said: Jack pushed the pace with his speed many times in 19-20. To my eyes, he had become very capable of playing in the style Granato wants. Further, I said if Granato needed to bridge a "consistency" gap, that's what he's there for. 

Wasn't Sam Reinhart the best player for us last year in Granato's insanely tough to grasp except for the Hinostrozas of the world System? Sam can play the system but Jack Eichel can't?

Come on man!

If Jack wants to keep playing for the Buffalo Sabres and watched tonight's game he can fly back to Buffalo and tell the team and the press he wants to stay and play.  He can look right into the cameras and say that.  I give that a 1 in 100 chance.  He doesn't want to be here and it's over IMO.  It's just the way it is and for me personally I have made my peace with it.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Cheektorado said:

If Jack wants to keep playing for the Buffalo Sabres and watched tonight's game he can fly back to Buffalo and tell the team and the press he wants to stay and play.  He can look right into the cameras and say that.  I give that a 1 in 100 chance.  He doesn't want to be here and it's over IMO.  It's just the way it is and for me personally I have made my peace with it.

 

[Southtown Tommy]

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Talent isn't everything. He was a crap captain and maybe he's a crap team mate. idk, but what I do know is this team looked like a TEAM tonight and that hasn't been the case for much of Jack's tenure. Not saying that's ALL on him, but there's something different here without him. 

There's something different - it's a culture change and it started in the offseason with the trades. I was at the game tonight and you felt the effort and different attitude.  It was fun to watch.  The team wont' miss Reinhart.

[7+6=13]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I already answered your question specifically though. You're not "asking it poorly" and I'm not failing to grasp your argument, you just aren't reading what I wrote I guess. I said: Jack pushed the pace with his speed many times in 19-20. To my eyes, he had become very capable of playing in the style Granato wants. Further, I said if Granato needed to bridge a "consistency" gap, that's what he's there for. 

Wasn't Sam Reinhart the best player for us last year in Granato's insanely tough to grasp except for the Hinostrozas of the world System? Sam can play the system but Jack Eichel can't?

Common. 

I don't think it's all Jack's fault but I don't think he's learned good hockey.   I don't know if it's because his influence or past coaches that created it but always felt like,  when Jack's on the ice, get him the puck.   What we saw tonight was a team game. 

I personally think that fits Sam much more than Jack.   Not saying he can't,  because he's so talented he absolutely could.  It's a matter of will he be challenged by a coach to do it.  

[Cheektorado]

Just now, Thorny said:

 

No.  If he wants to keep playing he could say that.  I don't understand why fans just don't see it that way.

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

I don't think it's all Jack's fault but I don't think he's learned good hockey.   I don't know if it's because his influence or past coaches that created it but always felt like,  when Jack's on the ice, get him the puck.   What we saw tonight was a team game. 

I personally think that fits Sam much more than Jack.   Not saying he can't,  because he's so talented he absolutely could.  It's a matter of will he be challenged by a coach to do it.  

I know his character has taken a hit but we're really on the "good hockey" stuff? Like ya there were arguments about if he was a top 10/20 player, worth his deal, an elite player, but heading to "he never learned good hockey" territory is a twist I honestly didn't see. Maybe? It's not what I saw. Jack got other people the puck, he drove play and helped more Sabres score goals than any other player. He elevated the guys he played with, inarguably statistically. He didn't drag them down by them forcing the puck to him or whatever. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Thorny

[woods-racer]

For an opening night win there is still to much doom an gloom. 

Rejoice. We hoped for a win and received one. Let there be happiness for one night before the oppressors way in on the forth coming of the apocalypse. 

[Stoner]

2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

The puck hit them, they didn’t play it, is that a penalty? 

To try and button this up, here's Rule 74:

If in the course of making a substitution, either the player entering
the game or the player retiring plays the puck or who checks or makes
any physical contact with an opposing player while both players
involved in the substitution are on the ice, then the infraction of “too
many men on the ice” will be called.

If in the course of a substitution either the player(s) entering the
play or the player(s) retiring is struck by the puck accidentally, the play
will not be stopped and no penalty will be called.

[Richard Noggin]

4 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

I don't think it's all Jack's fault but I don't think he's learned good hockey.   I don't know if it's because his influence or past coaches that created it but always felt like,  when Jack's on the ice, get him the puck.   What we saw tonight was a team game. 

I personally think that fits Sam much more than Jack.   Not saying he can't,  because he's so talented he absolutely could.  It's a matter of will he be challenged by a coach to do it.  

I agree, and would use the NBA as an example: many teams fall victim to the isolation game of letting their most talented players absolutely dominate the ball/puck, which prevents offenses from evolving into sustainable, team-based engines.

[Doohicksie]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It's remarkable how quickly people forget how talented Jack is.

I, for one, accept our new Baby Sabres Overlords.

 

 

and I'm done talkin' 'bout Jack.

[PerreaultForever]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Jack's biggest fault is that he desperately wanted to win. And he became visibly frustrated with the incompetence of this organization that kept this franchise mired in the muck of mediocrity. In hindsight it is clear that he shouldn't have been the captain at such an early age. But anyone who denies acknowledging his exceptional talent (when healthy) and what he can contribute to a well coached Granato team is allowing their personal feelings toward him to cloud their judgment about what he can add to this team. 

Jack probably won't play this year. There is still plenty of time to address the Jack issue. So I'm not leaving any option out about him right now. A healthy Jack and a bought in Jack would certainly elevate this team. 

I disagree with this entirely. I did say ages ago he shouldn't have been named captain and a divide was created etc etc beaten to death and in the past. But, I do see a POSSIBLE culture shift here (too soon to say for sure) and I do not think any sort of step backwards would work for that change to continue. In fact, I'd say the faster we get that deal done for whatever the better. Don't want it to keep coming up periodically, just want it over and then we can call that entire era dead and gone. 

[7+6=13]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

In the NBA you absolutely need star players to win. 

In hockey, you generally go, and they definitely help - if the team "fell victim" to the things you say, that's not on Jack, that's on the team. The team failing to build around Jack and pinning everything on him has always been a thing, but that's not an argument for getting rid of that player.

You can obviously build around those players if you do it properly. 

You made my point better than I could.   I'm not arguing,  I just think it looked different and free tonight as an example vs hockey with Jack.  Definitely not his fault,  I don't think good hockey was taught the entire time he was here.  He's just so damn good, he made it work.  

I'm just saying it's possible,  he'd have to adjust to a "system" if you will.  He's been brutally coached in Buffalo but he's also got issues IMO,  beyond hating to lose. 

My only question is did his talent/ personna aid in the bad hockey.