Crusader1969 Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 looking back, I know last year was tough but being in the Division of Death has greatly benefitted the Sabres. Night in and night out you had to bring your A game, play physical and with speed in order not to be skated out of the rink by team like the Islanders, Penguins, Bruins... 1
PromoTheRobot Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 2 hours ago, darksabre said: I would like to see it, but the org has long since made up its mind about Jack. They don't want him on this team anymore. Would the players want him back?
darksabre Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Would the players want him back? Hockey players aren't super complex guys. Unless he was like physically or verbally abusive they'll take anyone in the room who makes the team better. Especially if he's humble and hungry where maybe he wasn't before...
PromoTheRobot Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, darksabre said: Hockey players aren't super complex guys. Unless he was like physically or verbally abusive they'll take anyone in the room who makes the team better. Especially if he's humble and hungry where maybe he wasn't before... I think that's a lot to hope for. Jack has been the Golden Child since pee-wees. He has a strong sense of entitlement and I don't think he can flip a switch and become a Kyle Okposo; become a cog in 4 balanced lines.
mjd1001 Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 20 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: I think that's a lot to hope for. Jack has been the Golden Child since pee-wees. He has a strong sense of entitlement and I don't think he can flip a switch and become a Kyle Okposo; become a cog in 4 balanced lines. I think your comment with Jack is spot-on. I don't intend this to be a criticism of him but it will probably come out that way..... When some players are 'stars' growing up, they are always driven to learn more and to take things to the next level. It seems with Eichel, he feels/felt he was already at that next level and could just 'keep on doing' what he was doing. I'm not saying he was lazy and not willing to work, what I am saying is he is the type of player that would NOT look to 'evolve' is game or his attitude. He would just keep playing the game he always played and have the same attitude toward his workouts, his teammates, and coaches as he always had because it always worked for him.
Cheektorado Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 17 minutes ago, mjd1001 said: I think your comment with Jack is spot-on. I don't intend this to be a criticism of him but it will probably come out that way..... When some players are 'stars' growing up, they are always driven to learn more and to take things to the next level. It seems with Eichel, he feels/felt he was already at that next level and could just 'keep on doing' what he was doing. I'm not saying he was lazy and not willing to work, what I am saying is he is the type of player that would NOT look to 'evolve' is game or his attitude. He would just keep playing the game he always played and have the same attitude toward his workouts, his teammates, and coaches as he always had because it always worked for him. I tend to think the same on some of this. Jack is an elite talent on the ice but after years of bad results I truly felt sorry for him (and Sam) for playing year after year and not a playoff game between them. Jack of course would help this team be better but the history is too much. Their frustration had hit a level that not many players ever had to endure. It became a perpetual loop of losing and frustration. This Sabres team this year is playing literally lights out and one of the reasons is they "got nothing to lose". Jack on the other hand surely doesn't feel that way and in that regard I don't blame him. It's best for him to move on and just chalk it up to a bad situation. If feels to me that trying to bring Jack back to play with this team will only perpetuate a bad fit for both him and the Sabres.
Thorner Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Would the players want him back? KO was pretty sympathetic to him last time he spoke on it. Believe he mentioned being friends etc.
Thorner Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, mjd1001 said: I think your comment with Jack is spot-on. I don't intend this to be a criticism of him but it will probably come out that way..... When some players are 'stars' growing up, they are always driven to learn more and to take things to the next level. It seems with Eichel, he feels/felt he was already at that next level and could just 'keep on doing' what he was doing. I'm not saying he was lazy and not willing to work, what I am saying is he is the type of player that would NOT look to 'evolve' is game or his attitude. He would just keep playing the game he always played and have the same attitude toward his workouts, his teammates, and coaches as he always had because it always worked for him. To claim these things about Eichel is completely jumping the shark I'd say. Apologies, but this is all supposition. You believe we have the data to suppose Eichel doesn’t have the drive to improve and get better? Those players don’t make the NHL. And if they do, they don’t straight-line progress to the point of being MVP caliber players at 22. Some of this stuff is getting unbelievable, I’m sorry - - - Eichel improved his two way game substantially over the past two seasons before the 56 game year he was mostly out. Is this forgotten? Does it just not matter to people because it proves he did work to improve his game? The data is all there, and we all watched the games. Edited October 20, 2021 by Thorny 1 1
Weave Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 Thorny, he did start by saying “it seems to me”. It’s not like he called it out as undeniable fact.
Thorner Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Weave said: Thorny, he did start by saying “it seems to me”. It’s not like he called it out as undeniable fact. Was referring to this: "what I am saying is he is the type of player that would NOT look to 'evolve' is game or his attitude. He would just keep playing the game he always played and have the same attitude toward his workouts, his teammates, and coaches as he always had because it always worked for him." A) of course it's an opinion and not a fact, my issue wasn't that something was being suggested/disguised as "fact" B) it's jumping the shark because it's casting an opinionated aspiration on his character in opposition to a fact. We know Jack worked to, and did, improve his two-way game. This is all documented. It's IMO ludicrous to suggest that Jack didn't look to evolve his game - we saw him evolve his game. It just looks like another attempt at calling him entitled. Edited October 20, 2021 by Thorny 1
jad1 Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: I think that's a lot to hope for. Jack has been the Golden Child since pee-wees. He has a strong sense of entitlement and I don't think he can flip a switch and become a Kyle Okposo; become a cog in 4 balanced lines. That's funny, because I think that under Granato, Okposo had flipped a switch to become Okposo. If Granato can transform tank commanders like Okposo and Girgensons into world beaters, he would have no problem bringing a healthy Eichel into the fold. 1
PromoTheRobot Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, jad1 said: That's funny, because I think that under Granato, Okposo had flipped a switch to become Okposo. If Granato can transform tank commanders like Okposo and Girgensons into world beaters, he would have no problem bringing a healthy Eichel into the fold. You have to want to be in the fold. 2
K-9 Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: You have to want to be in the fold. Here’s what he said upon signing his $80m deal just prior to the ‘17/‘18 season: Quote "I'm grateful and humbled that the organization, the family [of owners Terry and Kim Pegula] and the entire city of Buffalo have put their faith in me," Eichel said Wednesday. "This city means so much to me, and I like to think I mean a lot to this city as well." My how the times have changed.
mjd1001 Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Thorny said: To claim these things about Eichel is completely jumping the shark I'd say. Apologies, but this is all supposition. You believe we have the data to suppose Eichel doesn’t have the drive to improve and get better? Those players don’t make the NHL. And if they do, they don’t straight-line progress to the point of being MVP caliber players at 22. Some of this stuff is getting unbelievable, I’m sorry - - - Eichel improved his two way game substantially over the past two seasons before the 56 game year he was mostly out. Is this forgotten? Does it just not matter to people because it proves he did work to improve his game? The data is all there, and we all watched the games. Of course it is what you call 'supposition'. lol. This is a message board, we discuss ideas, opinions here. If we just want facts we would go to an analytical website. And my 'opinion' is one that others agree with, and it is based on actual observations. No "Data" is required for me to have an opinion and post it here. Oh, and other people who have opinions different than you, or want to have an independent thought that doesn't agree with your point of view is "unbelievable". What a small world you must live in. When you feel the need to post "Some of this stuff is getting unbelievable, I’m sorry " to someone elses opinion you are one step away from becoming the 'get off my lawn guy' Lighten up when it comes to others opinions, let others post ideas that are different than yours. Edited October 20, 2021 by mjd1001
Thorner Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, mjd1001 said: Of course it is what you call 'supposition'. lol. This is a message board, we discuss ideas, opinions here. If we just want facts we would go to an analytical website. And my 'opinion' is one that others agree with, and it is based on actual observations. No "Data" is required for me to have an opinion and post it here. Oh, and other people who have opinions different than you, or want to have an independent thought that doesn't agree with your point of view is "unbelievable". What a small world you must live in. When you feel the need to post "Some of this stuff is getting unbelievable, I’m sorry " to someone elses opinion you are one step away from becoming the 'get off my lawn guy' Lighten up when it comes to others opinions, let others post ideas that are different than yours. You are positing an opinion on what color the sky is. It's a fact that Eichel evolved his game. If you keep posting objectively incorrect opinions, I'll keep telling you why they are unbelievable. Because they literally aren't believable. If you've got an issue with that, hell, that's just my opinion, after all. Edited October 20, 2021 by Thorny
Taro T Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Thorny said: And Granato isn't known as a defensive coach, right? Shows he's been good at maximizing what a team has to offer, which probably bodes well if he's given more talent to work with There's 1 other person that went out the door the day Krueger turned in his keys. Getting rid of that anchor was significantly addition by subtraction. 1
Taro T Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, JohnC said: You and I may be the only two inhabitants on this board who would love to see a healthy Jack back on this team. Granato's system that is predicated on speed and north/south play is an ideal fit for Jack's elite skill set. I understand the complexities of the Jack situation and how it relates to his relationship with the organization. But if there was a way to make the situation it could be tremendously beneficial for him and the organization. Some times time heals and sometimes it doesn't. Usually when people act on animus it end up being self-defeating. Yep, you and @Thorny are the only 2 people here that want Eichel back. <_< Sadly, Adams wanted Eichel gone prior to the neck injury & related drama. Really don't see a way he gets his mind changed on that front. Edited October 20, 2021 by Taro T 2
mjd1001 Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Thorny said: You are positing an opinion on what color the sky is. It's a fact that Eichel evolved his game. If you keep posting objectively incorrect opinions, I'll keep telling you why they are unbelievable. Because they literally aren't believable. If you've got an issue with that, hell, that's just my opinion, after all. You must have a problem either reading or comprehending, I guess I can't do anything about that. READ my post and THINK, use a little CONTEXT if you are able to. Be evolving his game, I am talking about not only how he plays but how he approaches the game. "his game" doesn't mean just what he does on the ice, but rather everything he does related to it. And secondly, how is it a fact that he evolved his game? that is an opinion. Just as you say what I say is an opinion, there is no fact, no data set, nothing that can be proved by anyone, especially you, that shows his game has evolved. Has he gotten BETTER? Maybe, that doing the same thing and getting better is just getting better, that is not evolving. If you are so incapable of understanding this is a message board where we can state our opinions and draw from them and insist instead that it should be operated like a court-of-law where you determine what is fact or not...well then you just don't add much to this community, and certainly don't make it a fun and inviting place for others to post their opinions while you are waiting in the weeds to shoot them down. Live in your little world where you think you are being cute and 'educating all of us' on what you consider facts though, must be a nice place. lol And the bottom line why I am even bothering to reply to you? because you said "some of this stuff is unbelievable' I'm not going to not reply to someone who takes a shot at someone else's 'opinion' and then ends their next post with "if you got an issue with that, hell that's just my opinion" talk about needing to take a look in the mirror..geez. Edited October 20, 2021 by mjd1001 1
Buffalonill Posted October 20, 2021 Report Posted October 20, 2021 Imagine when he gets real talent yeah they be scary
jad1 Posted October 21, 2021 Report Posted October 21, 2021 6 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: You have to want to be in the fold. So you're saying that Granato couldn't convince a player like Eichel to buy in? I guess I have a higher opinion of Granato as a coach and leader than most. If Granato was hired six years ago, the Sabres would be a top 5 organization right now. 1
Doohicksie Posted October 21, 2021 Report Posted October 21, 2021 7 hours ago, jad1 said: That's funny, because I think that under Granato, Okposo had flipped a switch to become Okposo. I find it frustrating that people don't realize how hard Okposo has been working to regain his game after spending time in the neurological ICU. Have you forgotten about his contributions on the LOG line in 2019-20? It was a damned hard line to play against. He's been steadily improving season-on-season since his neurological ICU stay in 2017. In the time that followed, he bemoaned the fact that he couldn't play at a level commensurate with his contract, but that he was doing everything he could to provide value to the team. And he did. He contributed however he could, a good soldier, following the coaches' ***** systems. Finally, as his physical rehab is complete, Donnie Meatballs becomes coach. I think this is the perfect situation to excel for Okposo. But this isn't a sudden flip of a switch, this has been a long ascent after nearly losing his life in 2017. All that said, if suddenly KA and Jack had a reconciliation and Jack wanted to be a Sabre again, I think Granato could flip Jack's switch. 1
Doohicksie Posted October 21, 2021 Report Posted October 21, 2021 7 hours ago, K-9 said: My how the times have changed. Fortunes have changed. There's a lot of frustration, especially on Jack's part, right now. In fact, it's got to be driving him crazy to not be able to play, and the dysfunctional organization that pays him is suddenly doing well in his absence. Not that his absence is the cause of the improvement, but still, he's missing out of the success in Buffalo, and being able to contribute to any other team's success as well. It's gotta be hard on him. For a lot of us you look at him and say, "He's already earned over $30 million, he's set for life, but at 24 you still want to leave your mark on your chosen field, especially when you're damned good at it. I have no idea which side first started talking trade, whether it was Jack or KA or mutual consent. I wonder if the Sabres came around and allowed the ADR procedure, would Jack be amenable to staying with the Sabres? Sure he hated not winning when they sucked, but if they're actually..... good....? Would he want to be a piece of that? And would he want to be just a piece (as opposed to the face of the franchise, which chances are he won't be after a trade)? 1
PerreaultForever Posted October 21, 2021 Report Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, jad1 said: So you're saying that Granato couldn't convince a player like Eichel to buy in? I guess I have a higher opinion of Granato as a coach and leader than most. If Granato was hired six years ago, the Sabres would be a top 5 organization right now. Wow, that is some lofty praise after a mere 3 games against crap opponents. The thing Granato has going for him here that his predecessors didn't is there are no "names" on this roster. Oh sure, maybe Dahlin and even Cozens are top tier prospects or young players but they haven't made a name for themselves yet. Nobody here is bigger than the coach. Nobody is super important. Skinner and his huge contract, will he buy in? I'm not so sure, time will tell. But overall, this is an egalitarian bunch and nobody is the big shot who can go their own way. There's a system, there's an identity. idk if Granato tailored this system to the talent and skills he had to work with or that was just his system for this nhl and he fit them into it (I think the former, but just guessing). We shall see how it holds up, how it responds to adversity, and if it'll work as games get tougher. I'm skeptical. (and just for the record, Lindy's undefeated so far this season too :0)
PromoTheRobot Posted October 21, 2021 Report Posted October 21, 2021 8 hours ago, jad1 said: So you're saying that Granato couldn't convince a player like Eichel to buy in? I guess I have a higher opinion of Granato as a coach and leader than most. If Granato was hired six years ago, the Sabres would be a top 5 organization right now. Totally agree. Not knocking the coach. I'm knocking the player.
LabattBlue Posted October 21, 2021 Report Posted October 21, 2021 8 hours ago, jad1 said: If Granato was hired six years ago, the Sabres would be a top 5 organization right now. I’d love to know how this would have occurred?
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