Is Don Granato the best coach the Sabres have had since Lindy Ruff?

[pi2000]

12 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Team defense. You’ve been saying this over and over. I would love to see some examples of what you are talking about, cuz I have no idea what you mean. They look like every other team now. Something I have not been able to say for ten years.

Sometimes they get hemmed in, sometimes they don’t, just like every other team at times during games. I have found that it’s most often a function of who is on the ice, not the D system.

 

Again, I would love some examples where you think it is the defensive system and not the personnel.

Sell it to me, cuz I’m just not buying it, yet. Sorry.

[SwampD]

46 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

So even you don’t know what you mean.

Gottit. And just what i thought.

[LGR4GM]

Reading this thread over is fun. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

It was always a process of letting them learn from their own mistakes this year for Donnie.

So I don’t think it’s as much about improving/implementing the system as the players getting better at hockey.

I have noticed, as Taro points out, more tactical bench coaching. I wonder how much of that is finally having the roster to make moves?

Too little being made about the fact the Sabres best hockey has also happened to coincide with their healthiest roster.

Definitely.  Replacing Bjork & Hayden with Hinostroza & Girgensons was a significant upgrade to the F's.

And having Girgensons & Okposo surrounding him let Eakin pass the eye test of being an actual 4th line NHLer.  (Rather than whatever he was flanked by Hayden & Jankowski or other non-LOG line alumni.)

Being able to not dress Butcher or Miller or only play them 12 minutes each when ONE dresses has also helped.

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

It was always a process of letting them learn from their own mistakes this year for Donnie.

So I don’t think it’s as much about improving/implementing the system as the players getting better at hockey.

I have noticed, as Taro points out, more tactical bench coaching. I wonder how much of that is finally having the roster to make moves?

Too little being made about the fact the Sabres best hockey has also happened to coincide with their healthiest roster.

Definitely.  Replacing Bjork & Hayden with Hinostroza & Girgensons was a significant upgrade to the F's.

And having Girgensons & Okposo surrounding him let Eakin pass the eye test of being an actual 4th line NHLer.  (Rather than whatever he was flanked by Hayden & Jankowski or other non-LOG line alumni.)

Being able to not dress Butcher or Miller or only play them 12 minutes each when ONE dresses has also helped.

[dudacek]

It’s even beyond that though.

Since Christmas-ish, the Sabres have effectively added:

Tuch

Krebs

Mittelstadt

Samuelsson

Power

Anderson

Plus a healthy Olofsson

They’ve made a real difference.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, SwampD said:

Team defense. You’ve been saying this over and over. I would love to see some examples of what you are talking about, cuz I have no idea what you mean. They look like every other team now. Something I have not been able to say for ten years.

Sometimes they get hemmed in, sometimes they don’t, just like every other team at times during games. I have found that it’s most often a function of who is on the ice, not the D system.

 

Again, I would love some examples where you think it is the defensive system and not the personnel.

Sell it to me, cuz I’m just not buying it, yet. Sorry.

Watch the Boston St. Louis game tonight. Unless it's an anomaly you should see a perfect example of what that means on both sides of it. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

It was always a process of letting them learn from their own mistakes this year for Donnie.

So I don’t think it’s as much about improving/implementing the system as the players getting better at hockey.

I have noticed, as Taro points out, more tactical bench coaching. I wonder how much of that is finally having the roster to make moves?

Too little being made about the fact the Sabres best hockey has also happened to coincide with their healthiest roster.

Yes, but is it Granato's coaching, that's the issue. 

Far more of this imo, is the arrival of Tuch and the accompanying change in attitude. Thompson was pretty good beginning of the year, Thompson was great after pairing him with Tuch. Skinner started meh but since Tuch's arrival he's become the old Skinner again. etc etc etc

EVERYTHING changed with the Eichel trade. If you want a pivotal moment, that's the moment, and not Granato's hiring. 

Aside from the goaltending, which is a valid argument, I don't see the injuries as that huge of a factor unless you also count Tuch in that. the main contributors have been mostly healthy (Thompson, Skinner, Dahlin, Okposo and so on). Mitts at this point isn't a big factor on this team. maybe he will be maybe not. The injured have been for the most part not essential pieces. 

 

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Watch the Boston St. Louis game tonight. Unless it's an anomaly you should see a perfect example of what that means on both sides of it. 

Gottit. So, good players on good teams being good. 

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

It was always a process of letting them learn from their own mistakes this year for Donnie.

So I don’t think it’s as much about improving/implementing the system as the players getting better at hockey.

I have noticed, as Taro points out, more tactical bench coaching. I wonder how much of that is finally having the roster to make moves?

Too little being made about the fact the Sabres best hockey has also happened to coincide with their healthiest roster.

Don Granato was asked on WGR why his team was playing so well now after struggling for much of the season? His response was that for the most part he now has a healthy roster. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yes, but is it Granato's coaching, that's the issue. 

Far more of this imo, is the arrival of Tuch and the accompanying change in attitude. Thompson was pretty good beginning of the year, Thompson was great after pairing him with Tuch. Skinner started meh but since Tuch's arrival he's become the old Skinner again. etc etc etc

EVERYTHING changed with the Eichel trade. If you want a pivotal moment, that's the moment, and not Granato's hiring. 

Aside from the goaltending, which is a valid argument, I don't see the injuries as that huge of a factor unless you also count Tuch in that. the main contributors have been mostly healthy (Thompson, Skinner, Dahlin, Okposo and so on). Mitts at this point isn't a big factor on this team. maybe he will be maybe not. The injured have been for the most part not essential pieces. 

 

I beg to differ. Shortly after the firing of Krueger and the elevation of Granato there was a noticeable change in how the team played. Although it took a while to get some wins, the quality of play was noticeably improved under is stewardship. This line of demarcation from futility to competitive play was before the Jack trade. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Gottit. So, good players on good teams being good. 

Did you watch it? Any of it? If you had, maybe instead of the smug snipe you'd have seen good defensive hockey and realized what I'm talking about. It was, as I expected, a very solid team defense first game. If you can't see the difference between that game and a usual Sabres game, well then I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand hockey at all. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I beg to differ. Shortly after the firing of Krueger and the elevation of Granato there was a noticeable change in how the team played. Although it took a while to get some wins, the quality of play was noticeably improved under is stewardship. This line of demarcation from futility to competitive play was before the Jack trade. 

No, I disagree on this totally. Yes, we played a loosey goosey open style after Kreuger got fired and won a few games when nobody took us seriously but the team was still a shambles. We were not good at the beginning of the year at all either. Everybody blamed goaltending and then injuries, but that feel that the team was a real hockey team only came together this season and not that long ago. 

I'm not saying Granato doesn't have a hand in that too, and the offensive side of the team's game is definitely improved, but we're not a real threat just yet. My hope is that Granato believes in getting the O going first and then will work on improving the D, but as I often say, with this team after this decade I only believe it when I see it. 

[Doohicksie]

51 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

that feel that the team was a real hockey team only came together this season and not that long ago. 

I'm not saying Granato doesn't have a hand in that too, and the offensive side of the team's game is definitely improved, but we're not a real threat just yet. My hope is that Granato believes in getting the O going first and then will work on improving the D

About the first bit, I will say this:  With the acquisition of Krebs and Tuch, and the ascent of Muel, I think the team finally has enough legit NHLers to fill out a roster.  Prior to that it seemed like just about every game that was won was because our goalie outplayed their goalie (stole the game).  Increasingly since then, but not quite consistently enough yet, the Sabres are outshooting opponents.  I want better goaltending, but I also want a team that should win and goaltending doesn't have to be the biggest factor.

For the second part, Granato always said the team needed to learn how to play offense first, that it takes more skill and timing and is more difficult.  He's pretty much gotten the team there and oddly enough, it seems like by stressing offense, the whole team is working harder to get those rushes going which... is defense.  But I do expect him to start focusing more on defense.

When the Sabres are hemmed into their own zone though, with few exceptions (i.e., the most highly skilled teams), they are keeping the opposing offense out on the perimeter and have a controlled defensive structure until the point they can get the puck into their control and start a rush.  So I think he's already working on the defensive side of the game.  The best teams (recently Tampa Bay, Florida, Edmonton) can slice through our defense, but even against most playoff teams, the Sabres are at the very least holding their own defensively. 

Also with respect to defensemen, consider that we now have (at least in my opinion) three stud defensemen (Dahlin, Power and Muel), and pretty good fourth guy in Joki.  Dahlin and Joki are entering their prime; Muel and Power are already very good but still have a ways to go to hit their ceilings.  We have a decent pool of other guys in Bryson, Fitzgerald, Laaksonen, hopefully Johnson, plus anyone else they sign in free agency... I think for the coming season the cupboard is already stocked and the Sabres are likely to add another name or two (perhaps someone already on the team like Pysyk but who knows).

Add to all that cap space and draft picks.  Yikes guys, the future is bright.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Doohickie

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

About the first bit, I will say this:  With the acquisition of Krebs and Tuch, and the ascent of Muel, I think the team finally has enough legit NHLers to fill out a roster.  Prior to that it seemed like just about every game that was won was because our goalie outplayed their goalie (stole the game).  Increasingly since then, but not quite consistently enough yet, the Sabres are outshooting opponents.  I want better goaltending, but I also want a team that should win and goaltending doesn't have to be the biggest factor.

For the second part, Granato always said the team needed to learn how to play offense first, that it takes more skill and timing and is more difficult.  He's pretty much gotten the team there and oddly enough, it seems like by stressing offense, the whole team is working harder to get those rushes going which... is defense.  But I do expect him to start focusing more on defense.

To the first paragraph, I'm not sure you can say it was finally about having enough legit NHLers as we added Krebs Tuch and Muel but we ditched Sam Jack and Risto so that's 3 for 3. There are issues with the 3 ditched, but you can't say they're not legit NHLers. (Flyer fans might disagree :))

To the second, that's interesting to me because I think it's the other way around. These young guys come in guns a blazing and have all kinds of offensive skills, it's the defense they have to learn and all the little things that go with that and are necessary for solid team D are harder to learn. Some of them don't like doing it, and some of them have simply never had to, but how well they learn determines what they will or won't ultimately become. 

So idk, there's no question the train seems to be back on the tracks and it's kind of refreshing that we're disagreeing on who gets more of the credit rather than who is to blame. That in and of itself is positive.

[SwampD]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Did you watch it? Any of it? If you had, maybe instead of the smug snipe you'd have seen good defensive hockey and realized what I'm talking about. It was, as I expected, a very solid team defense first game. If you can't see the difference between that game and a usual Sabres game, well then I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand hockey at all. 

What a crock. There is no difference in positioning or philosophy or coaching. The only difference is that those players are just better at it.

Maybe if Donny had a crooked nose or a scar you would be confident in him being able to coach team defense.

I do wish we played heavier in all zones, though.

Edited April 20, 2022 by SwampD

[WhenWillItEnd66]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

No, I disagree on this totally. Yes, we played a loosey goosey open style after Kreuger got fired and won a few games when nobody took us seriously but the team was still a shambles. We were not good at the beginning of the year at all either. Everybody blamed goaltending and then injuries, but that feel that the team was a real hockey team only came together this season and not that long ago. 

I'm not saying Granato doesn't have a hand in that too, and the offensive side of the team's game is definitely improved, but we're not a real threat just yet. My hope is that Granato believes in getting the O going first and then will work on improving the D, but as I often say, with this team after this decade I only believe it when I see it. 

I think you are partially correct. Special K broke this team. He was forcing a square peg in his own round hole. He was not grooming or making players better, he was forcing players to play his own system with zero capability of seeing anything but HIS System.

Granato is taking what he has been given and is grooming them to a system that allows for their individual strengths to grow while developing a structured system around them. Lack of real already there talent and major injuries to our vet players brought all of this to a screaming halt as we were barely putting anything more then a glorified AHL team on the ice every day. Now that the team is mostly whole they are growing by leaps and bounds and talent that was stoppered by special K is showing up again. Bringing up solid talent that is NHL ready from the Amerks helps replace fringe players on our roster. If you really think about it, this team is a young gun, pic N Save team that is now somewhat keeping up with the Jonas' (Great commercial). 

 

BTW not trying to be added into the disagreement, just saying hello and throwing my 4 cents in....

 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Did you watch it? Any of it? If you had, maybe instead of the smug snipe you'd have seen good defensive hockey and realized what I'm talking about. It was, as I expected, a very solid team defense first game. If you can't see the difference between that game and a usual Sabres game, well then I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand hockey at all. 

I will tell you what, you explain what you see the Sabres doing in the defensive zone and specifically what you don't like about it and we can go from there. 

For me, I have noticed that they breakout by winning the corner battle and the forwards give them 2 options immediately, just in front and to the side of the net and up the wall. Usually they like to give to the guy in front of the net so they can either switch sides or skate it out. Occasionally we see the ring around the other d partner. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by LGR4GM
Spelling

[Doohicksie]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

we ditched Sam Jack and Risto

I was thinking in terms of this season.  They weren't with the team.  (Jack technically was but didn't play.)

[Doohicksie]

As for the second bit, I agree they still have work to do with respect to team defense, but the team as a whole is playing better defense than they had been, and we now have the horsed (and one Muel) to ride on the blue line.  As they learn we will only get better.

[matter2003]

Simple answer. Yes.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, NJhopelessSabresfan66 said:

I think you are partially correct. Special K broke this team. He was forcing a square peg in his own round hole. He was not grooming or making players better, he was forcing players to play his own system with zero capability of seeing anything but HIS System.

Granato is taking what he has been given and is grooming them to a system that allows for their individual strengths to grow while developing a structured system around them. Lack of real already there talent and major injuries to our vet players brought all of this to a screaming halt as we were barely putting anything more then a glorified AHL team on the ice every day. Now that the team is mostly whole they are growing by leaps and bounds and talent that was stoppered by special K is showing up again. Bringing up solid talent that is NHL ready from the Amerks helps replace fringe players on our roster. If you really think about it, this team is a young gun, pic N Save team that is now somewhat keeping up with the Jonas' (Great commercial). 

 

BTW not trying to be added into the disagreement, just saying hello and throwing my 4 cents in....

 

I totally agree with you on Kreuger having a set idea and trying to force players to fit into the slots he saw for them and expecting them to do exactly what he said. Absolutely. Skinner's a skilled player but probably our least disciplined and hardest to coach and his fall from grace is the extreme example of that square pegs in round holes thing you're talking about. 

I won't buy into the injury thing though. All teams get injuries, and when you look at main players or key contributors we didn't have that huge disparity compared to other teams. more than average maybe, but many key guys have played all or most of the year. If it's a real turnaround, and I'm not fully convinced it is, just optimistic that it might be, then you're left with several changes and it'll be debated forever which meant the most. Some will say the coaching but my stance for years has been the problem was the culture, Sam and Jack in their tandem glory, and the general lack of team leadership. Subtraction has led to a brighter future and so I finally got my wish, something that many disagreed with and even mocked me for when I proposed it over 2 years ago. If people still don't want to believe that removal was the key they can, and they can give all the credit to Granato or whoever, but I feel vindicated all the same. 

the future is brighter now. lot's of luck vegas. 

[nfreeman]

17 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yes, but is it Granato's coaching, that's the issue. 

Far more of this imo, is the arrival of Tuch and the accompanying change in attitude. Thompson was pretty good beginning of the year, Thompson was great after pairing him with Tuch. Skinner started meh but since Tuch's arrival he's become the old Skinner again. etc etc etc

EVERYTHING changed with the Eichel trade. If you want a pivotal moment, that's the moment, and not Granato's hiring. 

Aside from the goaltending, which is a valid argument, I don't see the injuries as that huge of a factor unless you also count Tuch in that. the main contributors have been mostly healthy (Thompson, Skinner, Dahlin, Okposo and so on). Mitts at this point isn't a big factor on this team. maybe he will be maybe not. The injured have been for the most part not essential pieces. 

 

But Tuch joined the lineup on Dec. 29, and the Sabres were terrible in Jan. and Feb. 

IMHO, they didn't start playing better until some of the injured forwards returned (or in VO's case, got healthier).  That gave them 3 to 4 legit lines, instead of 2 NHL lines and 2 AHL lines.

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I totally agree with you on Kreuger having a set idea and trying to force players to fit into the slots he saw for them and expecting them to do exactly what he said. Absolutely. Skinner's a skilled player but probably our least disciplined and hardest to coach and his fall from grace is the extreme example of that square pegs in round holes thing you're talking about. 

I won't buy into the injury thing though. All teams get injuries, and when you look at main players or key contributors we didn't have that huge disparity compared to other teams. more than average maybe, but many key guys have played all or most of the year. If it's a real turnaround, and I'm not fully convinced it is, just optimistic that it might be, then you're left with several changes and it'll be debated forever which meant the most. Some will say the coaching but my stance for years has been the problem was the culture, Sam and Jack in their tandem glory, and the general lack of team leadership. Subtraction has led to a brighter future and so I finally got my wish, something that many disagreed with and even mocked me for when I proposed it over 2 years ago. If people still don't want to believe that removal was the key they can, and they can give all the credit to Granato or whoever, but I feel vindicated all the same. 

the future is brighter now. lot's of luck vegas. 

You must have missed the reports that the Sabres were leading the league in games lost to injury prior to getting healthy a month or two ago.

https://theathletic.com/3083587/2022/01/20/sabres-have-struggled-to-stay-healthy-during-the-first-half-of-the-season/

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/sabres/kevyn-adams-will-talk-to-brandon-beane-about-injuries

They were without their top 2 goalies for 2 months or more, and the third stringer they traded for got hurt almost immediately.

Their projected 1C going into camp missed almost the entire 1st half and took a long time to recover once he returned.

Their best shooter couldn’t shoot for half a season because of his arm.

Their best power forward was unavailable until Christmas time.

Their best RHD and their co-captain and best checking forward missed more than 20 each.

The goalie situation alone would have devastated any team, but you are also handwaving 1/2 of their top 6 up front, and their 2D, as well as a glue guy in their bottom 6.

And expected depth guys behind them like Hinostroza, Miller, Butcher, Caggiula, Quinn and Samuelsson were all unavailable for significant chunks of time.

Of the top of my head, the only good comparable was Montreal and look what happened to them.

“All teams get injuries” is a gross misrepresentation of what happened in the first half of this year.

[PerreaultForever]

40 minutes ago, dudacek said:

And expected depth guys behind them like Hinostroza, Miller, Butcher, Caggiula, Quinn and Samuelsson were all unavailable for significant chunks of time.

I don't think it's useful to go over every single piece of this argument but look at that list above. The stats are skewed by things like this. The first 4 are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever. Quinn really doesn't matter either. He's not here now. Only Samuelsson factors in here and he didn't start the season in Buffalo. Tuch factors into the stats as well but we knew he was recovering when we made the trade so he doesn't really factor in either in terms of "we were injured".

I acknowledged earlier that the goalies do count, even though KA put us in that scenario. The idea that an old guy like Anderson could carry a heavy season load was dumb and/or desperate. But yes, it did matter, I agree on that. 

Mitts maybe, but I'm personally still not sold on him being a huge factor, nor do I see VO as a huge issue either. 

Thompson, Skinner, Dahlin, Cozens, all healthy. Okposo healthiest he's been in ages. Key pieces all in play. 

The injury argument seems to imply that we are good enough, even were good enough, to compete, just bad luck of injuries held us back and I just don't see the team or their play that way. Players developed, things changed, attitudes changed, there was a lot to it. 

Ultimately I guess we will disagree forever since I firmly believe it's culture change (FIANALLY!!!!) that has led to this turnaround, and you believe it was already there and simply held back by injuries. Everything factors in obviously, but that's the fundamental difference. 

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

But Tuch joined the lineup on Dec. 29, and the Sabres were terrible in Jan. and Feb. 

These things take time. 

[dudacek]

No, I believe culture is a factor.

I just think it would be silly to ignore the difference in results when the team has had a healthy Anderson, Joki, Tuch, Mitts and Olofsson in the lineup compared to without.

For example, with Anderson, the team is 16/12/2 compared to 13/26/9 without. Anderson's health has also largely coincided with the health of the other 4 I listed.

9 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't think it's useful to go over every single piece of this argument but look at that list above. The stats are skewed by things like this. The first 4 are of absolutely no consequence whatsoever. Quinn really doesn't matter either. He's not here now. Only Samuelsson factors in here and he didn't start the season in Buffalo. Tuch factors into the stats as well but we knew he was recovering when we made the trade so he doesn't really factor in either in terms of "we were injured".

I acknowledged earlier that the goalies do count, even though KA put us in that scenario. The idea that an old guy like Anderson could carry a heavy season load was dumb and/or desperate. But yes, it did matter, I agree on that. 

Mitts maybe, but I'm personally still not sold on him being a huge factor, nor do I see VO as a huge issue either. 

Thompson, Skinner, Dahlin, Cozens, all healthy. Okposo healthiest he's been in ages. Key pieces all in play. 

The injury argument seems to imply that we are good enough, even were good enough, to compete, just bad luck of injuries held us back and I just don't see the team or their play that way. Players developed, things changed, attitudes changed, there was a lot to it. 

Ultimately I guess we will disagree forever since I firmly believe it's culture change (FIANALLY!!!!) that has led to this turnaround, and you believe it was already there and simply held back by injuries. Everything factors in obviously, but that's the fundamental difference. 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by dudacek