Kevyn Adams has botched the Eichel situation horribly

[PromoTheRobot]

3 minutes ago, COSabreFan said:

They won’t terminate his contract if he just goes had has his surgery, he then is no longer an asset to them.  Jack has already made over 50 million, if he has been smart with his money he could let Sabres suspend him without pay.  Even if it was for a year my guess Jack would be just fine financially and the Sabres as a franchise would be tanked for years.  No player would ever sign here unless the had to, and none of our good players would ever sign a contract extension here.  It would be irresponsible to the franchise in the long term, and that’s what KA job is right?
 

If I were Jack I would just go have surgery and put it back on Sabres, and hope to be ready for the Olympics.  If I was KA I would have held the line till the past trading deadline, but when all I got was bag of pucks offers I would let him have his surgery and work tirelessly to restore as much of his value as possible to trade him.  That’s what’s best for the Sabres in short and long term.

And I'd bet this is exactly what the Sabres secretly want. For Jack to take the gamble on himself and Dr. Prusmack. People keep asking how does this resolve itself? This is how.

 

 

 

[LabattBlue]

34 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

And I'd bet this is exactly what the Sabres secretly want. For Jack to take the gamble on himself and Dr. Prusmack. People keep asking how does this resolve itself? This is how.

 

 

 

I’m going to guess that the Sabres legal representation has advised management to stay as far away as possible from this ADR surgery.  No approval to allow Johnny to have it, no liability waiver if he does have it, nothing. 
 

The cleanest way out of this mess from a legal perspective, is either he has the fusion surgery as recommended by Sabres docs, or trade him as is for a lesser return. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by LabattBlue

[K-9]

26 minutes ago, COSabreFan said:

They won’t terminate his contract if he just goes had has his surgery, he then is no longer an asset to them.  Jack has already made over 50 million, if he has been smart with his money he could let Sabres suspend him without pay.  Even if it was for a year my guess Jack would be just fine financially and the Sabres as a franchise would be tanked for years.  No player would ever sign here unless the had to, and none of our good players would ever sign a contract extension here.  It would be irresponsible to the franchise in the long term, and that’s what KA job is right?
 

If I were Jack I would just go have surgery and put it back on Sabres, and hope to be ready for the Olympics.  If I was KA I would have either let him have it right away or held the line till trading deadline.  If all I got was bag of pucks offers I would let him have his surgery and work tirelessly to restore as much of his value as possible to trade him.  That’s what’s best for the Sabres in short and long term.

So, why hasn’t Eichel just done that already? 

[LabattBlue]

Here is an interesting question…as long as he is under contract to the team, does he need their permission to play in the Olympics?  If so, there goes the idea of Rogue Johnny. 

[Trettioåtta]

1 hour ago, COSabreFan said:

They won’t terminate his contract if he just goes had has his surgery, he then is no longer an asset to them.  Jack has already made over 50 million, if he has been smart with his money he could let Sabres suspend him without pay.  Even if it was for a year my guess Jack would be just fine financially and the Sabres as a franchise would be tanked for years.  No player would ever sign here unless the had to, and none of our good players would ever sign a contract extension here.  It would be irresponsible to the franchise in the long term, and that’s what KA job is right?
 

If I were Jack I would just go have surgery and put it back on Sabres, and hope to be ready for the Olympics.  If I was KA I would have either let him have it right away or held the line till trading deadline.  If all I got was bag of pucks offers I would let him have his surgery and work tirelessly to restore as much of his value as possible to trade him.  That’s what’s best for the Sabres in short and long term.

The league will also have a hand in this - they won't be happy if a player knowingly and deliberately breaks the CBA and there is no punishment. He could be suspended by the NHL for it.

If they let Jack have the surgery and it partially works, such that he can come back and play but not nearly to the same level, his value is tanked and we are saddled with $10 million cap dump. Not to mention his salary must be paid. Letting him get the surgery holds massive risk for the Sabres, and almost none of Jack, which is why it hasn't happened.

Jack is clearly hesitant about the surgery / the consequences of it (both legal and medical), otherwise he would have got it by now and done just what you said.

If the Sabres don't budge, Jack has three options - 1) Get the fusion. 2) Sit out the next five years of his prime, until he is 30 and potentially never play in the NHL again / not to the level he could have (and potentially get into legal dispute if he is refusing to fix the issue) 3) Get the ADR and risk the consequences, which could be substantial.

Right or wrong, the players negotiated away their medical autonomy for guaranteed contracts and that won't change.

My understanding is that the Sabres medical doctor is regarded as a world class specialist on neck issues - he thinks fusion is safer for Jack (not just for the Sabres). The independent NHLPA (who looks after Jack) specialist thinks he should get a fusion. The third party independent thinks he should get the fusion. The rest of the doctors he has canvassed have varying thoughts - but no clear consensus. The guy who would do the ADR surgery thinks Jack should get the ADR.

This is a massively complicated situation

 

[Doohicksie]

4 hours ago, COSabreFan said:

Yet, it only gets worse for them in terms of trade return and lasting damage to team as a franchise long term.

A lot of people are saying this.  I'm not seeing it.  First of all, we don't know what trade offers have been thus far, so you can't say something is getting better or worse compared to an unknown.  Further, we don't know which direction his trade value is going.  I would say it's not changing at all right now; the thing that will change it will be a medical resolution.

 

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I think they would be entirely in the right, if Jack has the ADR without their permission, to void the contract if it doesn’t work or, if it does work, to retain his rights and then trade him for full value.

See here's the thing:  I don't think it is simply whether the surgery is successful or not.  It's not binary.  There are other outcomes including failure of the ADR but a second surgery for fusion, ability to play but not at the same high level, or (and this is the nightmare scenario that probably prevents an insurance company from allowing the ADR) a surgery that at first appears successful, Jack comes back to play at a high level, but then a subsequent injury causes a failure of the artificial disc leaving Jack paralyzed.

I'm not a lawyer but legally this gets very sticky.  If the doctors never approve the procedure for Jack and the Sabres (or another team) allows him to play and he ends up severely injured due to the artificial disc, can Jack sue his team and/or the NHL for clearing him to play hockey when their doctors advised against it?

Such a case may not be a clear win for Jack or the Sabres but could end up in the courts for years.

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I believe there can be a resolution in this stalled situation. In order for there to be movement he will have to modify the contract where he will be assuming the financial risk if the end result doesn't work out. So far he hasn't been willing to do that. 

Would such a modification be in violation of the CBA?  If so it can't be done.

 

1 hour ago, Trettioåtta said:

I don't know what would happen if Jack then got paralysed from the ADR slipping whilst making a hockey play. Perhaps the Sabres could refuse to pay the rest of the contract? Voiding the contract would require full negotiation of a new contract I believe.

A massive lawsuit and probably counter suit would be my guess.  It would go on for years.  If they voided the contract he would be a free agent.  Not sure what you mean by "Voiding the contract would require full negotiation of a new contract I believe."  If Jack is paralyzed there will be no further contract.

 

1 hour ago, COSabreFan said:

the Sabres as a franchise would be tanked for years.  No player would ever sign here unless the had to, and none of our good players would ever sign a contract extension here.

If I were Jack I would just go have surgery and put it back on Sabres, and hope to be ready for the Olympics.  If I was KA I would have either let him have it right away or held the line till trading deadline.  If all I got was bag of pucks offers I would let him have his surgery and work tirelessly to restore as much of his value as possible to trade him.  That’s what’s best for the Sabres in short and long term.

To the bolded, I'm just not seeing it.  At this point, the Sabres are moving on from Jack and building without him.  If he ever comes back or there is a trade return, great but I think at this point that's not part of the plan, it would just be a bonus.  The plan is to build forward from this point sans Jack.  If the young core develops and the team wins, what happened in the Jack situation will eventually be forgotten.

To the rest, if Jack were going to do that he would have done it by now.  He doesn't have the cojones to walk away from the $50 million still outstanding on his contract.

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

And I'd bet this is exactly what the Sabres secretly want. For Jack to take the gamble on himself and Dr. Prusmack. People keep asking how does this resolve itself? This is how.

Actually it would force the Sabres into a quandary:  Play Jack and risk him suffering further injury to his neck and he sues the team and the league, or terminate his contract outright because the team doesn't want that liability.  If they try to trade him after the surgery his value would take a hit because any team he's traded to would face the same quandary.

44 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I’m going to guess that the Sabres legal representation has advised management to stay as far away as possible from this ADR surgery.  No approval to allow Johnny to have it, no liability waiver if he does have it, nothing. 

The cleanest way out of this mess from a legal perspective, is either he has the fusion surgery as recommended by Sabres docs, or trade him as is for a lesser return. 

I think this is correct.

44 minutes ago, K-9 said:

So, why hasn’t Eichel just done that already? 

Because he doesn't have the cojones to walk away from $50 million if the surgery goes bad.

40 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Here is an interesting question…as long as he is under contract to the team, does he need their permission to play in the Olympics?  If so, there goes the idea of Rogue Johnny. 

Moot point because he won't be recovered by then anyway.  But even if he was (because he had the ADR and is recovered from the surgery in time to play), he already violated his contract to get the surgery, so what's another contract violation?  The Sabres could already terminate him or suspend him or take other action due to the unauthorized surgery.

[Buffalonill]

We still own his right if he voids his contract correct? 

[Georgia Blizzard]

34 minutes ago, Trettioåtta said:

The league will also have a hand in this - they won't be happy if a player knowingly and deliberately breaks the CBA and there is no punishment. He could be suspended by the NHL for it.

If they let Jack have the surgery and it partially works, such that he can come back and play but not nearly to the same level, his value is tanked and we are saddled with $10 million cap dump. Not to mention his salary must be paid. Letting him get the surgery holds massive risk for the Sabres, and almost none of Jack, which is why it hasn't happened.

Jack is clearly hesitant about the surgery / the consequences of it (both legal and medical), otherwise he would have got it by now and done just what you said.

If the Sabres don't budge, Jack has three options - 1) Get the fusion. 2) Sit out the next five years of his prime, until he is 30 and potentially never play in the NHL again / not to the level he could have (and potentially get into legal dispute if he is refusing to fix the issue) 3) Get the ADR and risk the consequences, which could be substantial.

Right or wrong, the players negotiated away their medical autonomy for guaranteed contracts and that won't change.

My understanding is that the Sabres medical doctor is regarded as a world class specialist on neck issues - he thinks fusion is safer for Jack (not just for the Sabres). The independent NHLPA (who looks after Jack) specialist thinks he should get a fusion. The third party independent thinks he should get the fusion. The rest of the doctors he has canvassed have varying thoughts - but no clear consensus. The guy who would do the ADR surgery thinks Jack should get the ADR.

This is a massively complicated situation

 

Great thread and discussion.

Do you think Jack's agent is polling other GM's as to their willingness to allow Jack to have the ADR surgery ?  If that number is large, wouldn't his agent be shouting it from the tree tops to paint the Sabres as out of sync with the rest of the league ?

I also agree with the previous post that the NFLPA would be doing the same, if they agreed with the ADR approach, they would be vocally advocating for it as well.

What this tells me is that Jack's doc is out of sync with the prevailing thinking.

I think the only way out for Eichel is to get the fusion surgery, recover and force a trade at that point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rickshaw]

My take is this. In my eyes, Jack isn’t a Sabre anymore. I’ve stopped thinking about him. The team is looking to the future, changing its culture and trying to do things right. Unlike the past 9 years where gm aftrr gm has f’d it up. Adam’s is trying to do right here. And in time I think he will, if given said time.

The team is who is on the roster and Jack isn’t on it. Maybe one day we get a nice deal and it improves the team, hopefully that happens. But I think Jack needs to make concessions too. The Sabres aren’t allowing him an experimental surgery, how dare they be so cautious! If the back and forth on his procedure stalls then Jack will need to make some concessions. 
 

He could say, I’ll waive my no move clause for starters. Maybe that’s all that the Sabres need doing. He can say that if the surgery fails, then I’ll have the team’s preferred surgery afterwards. These are a few things he could do.

The Sabres shouldn’t be the bad guy here. Jack wants out so badly, make some concessions bro, otherwise they can sit on their “asset” as long as they want because like I said earlier, he’s already gone. The Sabres don’t have Jack Eichel anymore. Maybe one day we will get some reinforcements for him, and when that happens it will be like finding money in an old pair of jeans you haven’t worn for ages.

[Buffalonill]

14 minutes ago, rickshaw said:

My take is this. In my eyes, Jack isn’t a Sabre anymore. I’ve stopped thinking about him. The team is looking to the future, changing its culture and trying to do things right. Unlike the past 9 years where gm aftrr gm has f’d it up. Adam’s is trying to do right here. And in time I think he will, if given said time.

The team is who is on the roster and Jack isn’t on it. Maybe one day we get a nice deal and it improves the team, hopefully that happens. But I think Jack needs to make concessions too. The Sabres aren’t allowing him an experimental surgery, how dare they be so cautious! If the back and forth on his procedure stalls then Jack will need to make some concessions. 
 

He could say, I’ll waive my no move clause for starters. Maybe that’s all that the Sabres need doing. He can say that if the surgery fails, then I’ll have the team’s preferred surgery afterwards. These are a few things he could do.

The Sabres shouldn’t be the bad guy here. Jack wants out so badly, make some concessions bro, otherwise they can sit on their “asset” as long as they want because like I said earlier, he’s already gone. The Sabres don’t have Jack Eichel anymore. Maybe one day we will get some reinforcements for him, and when that happens it will be like finding money in an old pair of jeans you haven’t worn for ages.

It seems he doesn't care about that 

@RealKyper 

Eichel has made it clear he’s willing to go anywhere to facilitate a trade.

[nfreeman]

1 minute ago, Buffalonill said:

It seems he doesn't care about that 

@RealKyper 

Eichel has made it clear he’s willing to go anywhere to facilitate a trade.

That's not the same thing as waiving his NMC, which doesn't take effect for another year.

Right now he has to go anywhere the Sabres trade him, so the bolded statement isn't a concession by Jack.

 

[Taro T]

A couple of items on the insurance side of things.  There are likely 2 different insurance policies at play here.  The 1st is the medical insurance policy which is set via the CBA.  And if Eichel wants an experimental surgery, the medical insurer likely won't pay for the procedure.  The same as would happen should anyone here want to get an experimental procedure or an elective procedure performed. You could get it done, but it's coming out of your own pocket.  We have a couple of Dr's here, am wondering what the bill for such a procedure would be.  Figure it would be minimum $100k and wouldn't be surprised if it ends up in the neighborhood of $500k when post-op rehab therapy is added in.  Is that a reasonable guesstimate?  Either way, that's coming out of Eichel's or the Pegulas' pockets should the procedure happen & that's still a huge nut for a multimillionaire & still enough to think twice about for a billionaire.

Then there's the contract insurance policy undoubtably taken out by the Sabres as they have to pay his full salary should he go out on LTIR.  Would the insurance policy remain in effect if he has a surgery that's never been tried on a North American pro hockey player?  Very doubtful.  But  even if the policy remains in place, the payouts to the Sabres won't start until he's missed X # of games.  (W/ LaFontaine, IIRC, it didn't kick in until he'd missed 20 some games.)  How many games that is, don't know as we have no access to that policy, but it has to be getting close to kicking in if it hasn't already.  The Sabres are financially better off with him not passing his physical as the games he misses this season are the result of the same injury that sidelined him last year.  Had he been deemed healthy & skate with the team again there's a real possibility that the missed game clock resets to 0 when he hits the ice.  Which may seem like a minor item, but having to wait 20+ more games to start collecting on the policy puts the Pegulas out ANOTHER $2.5MM for no return.

And those are just the base logistical items that don't even get into whether the Sabres wanted to be rid of Jack 1st, Jack wanted out 1st, or they mutually came up w/ the thought, & whether / when their differences became irreconsilable..

Stepping away from the emotion of this apparent Mexican standoff, this whole episode is nearly as fascinating as when the emotion is added back in it is frustrating.

[Buffalonill]

59 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

That's not the same thing as waiving his NMC, which doesn't take effect for another year.

Right now he has to go anywhere the Sabres trade him, so the bolded statement isn't a concession by Jack.

 

With 5 years left on his contract his NMC means nothing imo buffalo has all the power  It has shown through this whole process that they will not give in.

 

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

A lot of people are saying this.  I'm not seeing it.  First of all, we don't know what trade offers have been thus far, so you can't say something is getting better or worse compared to an unknown.  Further, we don't know which direction his trade value is going.  I would say it's not changing at all right now; the thing that will change it will be a medical resolution.

 

See here's the thing:  I don't think it is simply whether the surgery is successful or not.  It's not binary.  There are other outcomes including failure of the ADR but a second surgery for fusion, ability to play but not at the same high level, or (and this is the nightmare scenario that probably prevents an insurance company from allowing the ADR) a surgery that at first appears successful, Jack comes back to play at a high level, but then a subsequent injury causes a failure of the artificial disc leaving Jack paralyzed.

I'm not a lawyer but legally this gets very sticky.  If the doctors never approve the procedure for Jack and the Sabres (or another team) allows him to play and he ends up severely injured due to the artificial disc, can Jack sue his team and/or the NHL for clearing him to play hockey when their doctors advised against it?

Such a case may not be a clear win for Jack or the Sabres but could end up in the courts for years.

Would such a modification be in violation of the CBA?  If so it can't be done.

 

A massive lawsuit and probably counter suit would be my guess.  It would go on for years.  If they voided the contract he would be a free agent.  Not sure what you mean by "Voiding the contract would require full negotiation of a new contract I believe."  If Jack is paralyzed there will be no further contract.

 

To the bolded, I'm just not seeing it.  At this point, the Sabres are moving on from Jack and building without him.  If he ever comes back or there is a trade return, great but I think at this point that's not part of the plan, it would just be a bonus.  The plan is to build forward from this point sans Jack.  If the young core develops and the team wins, what happened in the Jack situation will eventually be forgotten.

To the rest, if Jack were going to do that he would have done it by now.  He doesn't have the cojones to walk away from the $50 million still outstanding on his contract.

Actually it would force the Sabres into a quandary:  Play Jack and risk him suffering further injury to his neck and he sues the team and the league, or terminate his contract outright because the team doesn't want that liability.  If they try to trade him after the surgery his value would take a hit because any team he's traded to would face the same quandary.

I think this is correct.

Because he doesn't have the cojones to walk away from $50 million if the surgery goes bad.

Moot point because he won't be recovered by then anyway.  But even if he was (because he had the ADR and is recovered from the surgery in time to play), he already violated his contract to get the surgery, so what's another contract violation?  The Sabres could already terminate him or suspend him or take other action due to the unauthorized surgery.

Mike Traikos, author of the hit piece in The National and every other myopic writer on this subject should be made to read this post. There are so many legal and medical complications to this and they need to be respected. But no, instead we get hacks like Traikos who accuse the Sabres of “acting out of spite” in relieving Eichel of his captaincy. Acting out of spite? Is Traikos stuck in 8th grade?

I gotta wonder if Eichel and Co. aren’t seeking out sympathetic “journalists” in their quest to manipulate public perception. They certainly did in the summer with ex-agent Fish. Would Brisson stoop as low?

[Marvin]

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Mike Traikos, author of the hit piece in The National and every other myopic writer on this subject should be made to read this post. There are so many legal and medical complications to this and they need to be respected. But no, instead we get hacks like Traikos who accuse the Sabres of “acting out of spite” in relieving Eichel of his captaincy. Acting out of spite? Is Traikos stuck in 8th grade?

I gotta wonder if Eichel and Co. aren’t seeking out sympathetic “journalists” in their quest to manipulate public perception. They certainly did in the summer with ex-agent Fish. Would Brisson stoop as low?

Yes.  Is this even in doubt?

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Yes.  Is this even in doubt?

I had heard that Brisson was the consummate professional but then again, he works for Eichel, so it at least begs the question. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I had heard that Brisson was the consummate professional but then again, he works for Eichel, so it at least begs the question. 

IMHO, there's a huge gulf between trying to show your client in a good light (which all these agents should be doing) & actively trying to lower your client's trade value to get him to a team of his choosing (which it seemed Fish was doing to get Jack onto his buddy Drury's Rags squad).  

 

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

IMHO, there's a huge gulf between trying to show your client in a good light (which all these agents should be doing) & actively trying to lower your client's trade value to get him to a team of his choosing (which it seemed Fish was doing to get Jack onto his buddy Drury's Rags squad).  

 

I agree entirely. But in reading some of the hit pieces this morning, I had to wonder if another propaganda campaign was being orchestrated. Anyone who took the time to actually watch the Adams presser would know how sensationalized those articles were. Hell, before I watched it and just heard about supposed “statement” Adams made regarding the captaincy issue, I was wondering how he could be so callous to the gravity of situation. But after watching it and seeing that Adams was merely responding to the first question concerning that issue, and already seven minutes into the presser, I came away knowing how blown up it really was. It was downright innocuous. 

Also meant to add, is throwing shade at the team the only way for an agent to show his client in a good light?

[COSabreFan]

The problem from Sabres POV is the asset they are going to sit on is a depreciating one, only chance to stop the depreciation is to get him healthy one way or the other.

I understand the NHL doesn’t want one of their star players to go rogue, but there is no way they want one of their star players rotting on the vine for 1-2 years in his prime either.  Wonder if and when the NHL and NHLPA get involved beyond the basic CBA.

Also read here and other place that the replacement is experimental, my understanding it is not.  It’s a really common surgery, even been done on college hockey players, just never on a NHL player.

Edited September 24, 2021 by COSabreFan

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

It seems he doesn't care about that 

@RealKyper 

Eichel has made it clear he’s willing to go anywhere to facilitate a trade.

Clear to whom? Where is Eichel’s direct quote saying that?

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

 

 

 

Would such a modification be in violation of the CBA?  If so it can't be done.

 

 

 

Why would it be in a violation if both parties agree to the change? It's not unusual for a player to waive or modify their NMC or trade clause in the signed contract. So if both parties agree to it then I don't see what the issue is. 

[K-9]

14 minutes ago, COSabreFan said:

The problem from Sabres POV is the asset they are going to sit on is a depreciating one, only chance to stop the depreciation is to get him healthy one way or the other.

I understand the NHL doesn’t want one of their star players to go rogue, but there is no way they want one of their star players rotting on the vine for 1-2 years in his prime either.  Wonder if and when the NHL and NHLPA get involved beyond the basic CBA.

Also read here and other place that the replacement is experimental, my understanding it is not.  It’s a really common surgery, even been done on college hockey players, just never on a NHL player.

I can’t seem to find any articles on college hockey players getting the ADR surgery. Can you point me in the right direction? That testimony would be a boon to Eichel I would think. 

[COSabreFan]

15 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I can’t seem to find any articles on college hockey players getting the ADR surgery. Can you point me in the right direction? That testimony would be a boon to Eichel I would think. 

It is coming from Jacks doctor, so one could certainly question its validity.  None the less its stated in this article.

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/sabres/is-surgery-the-right-move-for-jack-eichel

[Buffalonill]

37 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Clear to whom? Where is Eichel’s direct quote saying that?

You're  correct  it could be more lies by media i take it back.

[FogBat]

On 9/22/2021 at 1:18 AM, pi2000 said:

KA is showing some backbone here and it requires patience on our part.

The worst thing he could do is panic sell, which is what we've seen from recent Sabres GMs.

Holding the asset until you receive fair market value is the correct play... albeit something we're simply not used to as Sabres fans, so we get posts like this, smh.

Thanks for helping me to put my popcorn down. Your comment makes perfect sense.