Kevyn Adams has botched the Eichel situation horribly

[Peter]

43 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Except it doesn't. Adams job is use the asset of Jack Eichel to make his team better. He has not done that. Jack is not helping the team by playing, he is not helping the team by providing assets in a trade. He's not helping the team by rehabilitating his health or his reputation.

I don't understand why the default is that no deal is a success because Adams "hasn't caved."

We have no idea what deals have been rejected or what avenues have not been pursued.

 

You don't know what offers he has received.

Trying doesn't matter. You asked what he could have done and he failed to build a better team.

You don't know about the insurance situation, or whether there were ways around it.

You don't know if it was "for nothing"

And he could have taken him off the market.

This only would make sense if Adams never makes "use of the asset of Jack Eichel."

Be patient.

Please tell me what great deals Adams has rejected?  Has there even been a rumor that Adams has rejected a great deal (or anything approaching fair value)? I have not heard of one. Have you?!? I doubt it.

I am very happy with the approach Adams has taken.

Let's see what happens.

 

 

 

 

[Hoss]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

Dude, people hate Jack Eichel. 

Dudacek covered it when he said "he's done a good job making Jack the bad guy"

Just look at all the posts from the usual suspects when the new quote was brought into the other thread. 

As long as fans can tout "the future", winning and being a good team literally doesn't matter as much to many people as finding a way to screw Jack

This place makes me kinda sad now 

I both dislike Jack Eichel and think GMKA is completely lost. I do think Jack owns a good chunk of the responsibility but I think KA has managed this about as poorly as you possibly could given what we do know.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Why didn’t Eichel file for medical arbitration as is his right under the CBA? That seems curious to me. 

My understanding is that under the current CBA the organization has the deciding say on the treatment for an injury. The Jack camp can't overrule the organization's decision unless it wants to invalidate the contract. 

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

Be patient.

 

Do you think that if we are patient some team will come around to paying more than what they have already offered for Eichel, without some change in Eichel's status in terms of health and reputation, or some movement in Adams ask?

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

Really have never fully understood the dislike of him.  But it's been there a lot longer than Adams being the GM.

And really believe that Adams was never overly impressed with him either.  Still think that building around Eichel last year was done begrudgingly & that KA isn't going to be sad when he finally gets to deal Jack away.  And though it creates a ST headache for him in that he's been answering Q's about Jack & will continue to do so, having $10MM worth of cap sitting on the sideline kind of seems to fit In well w/ the LT plan of re-reloading w/ high picks.  So, he's getting most of what he wants & it's a tire fire now.  But it really didn't have to be one.

Eichel hasn't handled this particularly well.  But, not really sure how a guy in his spot handles rejection for the 1st time literally ever in his chosen profession.

Worst.  Summer.  Ever.

I really try not to make this a rail on Jack thing.  Until more information comes out I have to side with Adams.  It is as simple as this, my expectations are that a player on contract should not behave like this.  He and Fish really did hurt his chances of getting traded and they put Adams in a tough situation.  

I suspect there is now something going on with Jack and Adams, a tension that is not healthy or fixable.   This might have roots that go back two seasons.  Remember that Adams went on the road trip with the team before he was even part of hockey operations.  It was an unusual move and it’s no coincidence that he was selected to replace Botterill without the Pegula’s even doing a job search.  Then there is Jack and Ralph’s relationship and the moves that were made prior to last season to bring in more vets.   Adams supported them and he even seemed hesitant to fire Ralph.  So at this point I think Adams was ok with Jack.   What Adams never got in return was Jack’s support of Granato and the youngsters.   Jack did not return to the team until the season ended and then he dropped the “disconnect” bomb direct to the media.   I and believe that Jack and Fish made the trade harder to pull off as they put Adams in a weak “ take it or leave it” posture with the other GMs.   Again,  not the way a player on contract should be acting.   
 

Your last bold sentence is an intriguing comment on your part.   It could also be part of the problem with Jack.  Now Jack sees the season may go on without him, and the olympics pass him by, and still no agreement on a plan forward.  
 

Does he accept any responsibility or accountability for the situation?    He has a big role in this.  He and his first agent did a lot to make this thing as ugly as it is.  Adams qualifications and experience is limited.  Add the two sides together and here we are.  

Edited September 22, 2021 by Pimlach

[K-9]

30 minutes ago, JohnC said:

My understanding is that under the current CBA the organization has the deciding say on the treatment for an injury. The Jack camp can't overrule the organization's decision unless it wants to invalidate the contract. 

I guess my understanding isn’t clear. Why have a collectively bargained agreement for players to seek medical arbitration in the first place then?

[bunomatic]

Its a messy divorce. Theres blame on both sides. Just make it end regardless of the outcome. Its tiring.

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Its a messy divorce. Theres blame on both sides. Just make it end regardless of the outcome. Its tiring.

Messy divorces where both sides thinking they are completely right tend to drag out like this.

[GASabresIUFAN]

48 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I guess my understanding isn’t clear. Why have a collectively bargained agreement for players to seek medical arbitration in the first place then?

To prevent unreasonable use of the team’s power to make medical decisions for the players.  

I don’t think this is one of those cases.  

[K-9]

10 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

To prevent unreasonable use of the team’s power to make medical decisions for the players.  

I don’t think this is one of those cases.  

I appreciate the explanation. Seems it’s a totally feckless provision in the CBA if teams still retain ultimate decision making power over the player regardless of the arbiter’s decision. But as you imply, this is not a standard case. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I appreciate the explanation. Seems it’s a totally feckless provision in the CBA if teams still retain ultimate decision making power over the player regardless of the arbiter’s decision. But as you imply, this is not a standard case. 

If Jack took this to arbitration and won, he'd get the surgery he wants.  He hasn't taken it to arbitration because he has been advised that he's likely lose.  

Had the Sabres said he can't have any type of surgery that would have been an unreasonable use of their power.  Instead they said, rest and get therapy and if that doesn't work, we'll authorize ACDF surgery.

[Peter]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Do you think that if we are patient some team will come around to paying more than what they have already offered for Eichel, without some change in Eichel's status in terms of health and reputation, or some movement in Adams ask?

I believe we will get more than what previously was offered.

I also think that, because of Adams/Sabres' approach, there will be a change. It appears that JE finally realized that the Sabres are in "control" after the meeting with the Sabres, JE's former agent, the NHL etc. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Peter said:

This only would make sense if Adams never makes "use of the asset of Jack Eichel."

Be patient.

Please tell me what great deals Adams has rejected?  Has there even been a rumor that Adams has rejected a great deal (or anything approaching fair value)? I have not heard of one. Have you?!? I doubt it.

I am very happy with the approach Adams has taken.

Let's see what happens.

 

 

 

 

Seriously. Be patient? It's like waiting for Godot. We are well past being patient.

I'm going to be blunt, the little aspects of Jack's personality that have come out over the course of this debacle have made me think the guy is an egomaniacal dick and he's a big part of why this last rebuild (based around him) failed so miserably. He's not a leader, he should have never been named captain, and it's well past time to move on, turn the page, declare a mea culpa and start again. 

As a Sabres fan we can all simply collectively hope he does become a Bruin one day so that he can drag them down and crash and burn them too. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I guess my understanding isn’t clear. Why have a collectively bargained agreement for players to seek medical arbitration in the first place then?

Under this particular agreement even if there is a medical arbitration the organization has the last say. I don't believe that it was always that way under previous CBAs. But in this CBA the union agreed to the change because they either weren't paying attention to this specific clause or because this type of health and treatment conflict has rarely come up. I suspect that in the next CBA negotiations the union will be more attentive to this type of issue. 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by JohnC

[irregularly irregular]

1 hour ago, bunomatic said:

Its a messy divorce. Theres blame on both sides. Just make it end regardless of the outcome. Its tiring.

Sorry Bun, can't do that. John Boy is a valuable commodity and maximizing return is vitally important for the Sabres going forward.

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, bunomatic said:

Its a messy divorce. Theres blame on both sides. Just make it end regardless of the outcome. Its tiring.

It's nothing like a divorce.

Eichel is under contract.    He can't get an annulment or file for divorce.    His fate rest entirely in the hands of KA.     He agreed to that when he signed his deal. 

Is it tiring?  Perhaps.  However, that doesn't mean you just pull the plug and trade him for nothing just to end the saga.     The wise move is to wait it out.

[K-9]

39 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

If Jack took this to arbitration and won, he'd get the surgery he wants.  He hasn't taken it to arbitration because he has been advised that he's likely lose.  

Had the Sabres said he can't have any type of surgery that would have been an unreasonable use of their power.  Instead they said, rest and get therapy and if that doesn't work, we'll authorize ACDF surgery.

So as long as the Sabres prescribed the medical best practices, from the 12 week rest and rehab to the ACDF surgery, then they were likely to prevail in arbitration. Seems the players should take this up with their union next time the CBA comes up for renewal.

[SabresVet]

 

7 hours ago, Thorny said:

Isn't one of @dudacek's points timeline, though? "Good or bad GM, we just can't know". Doesn't resolving issues in a reasonable timeframe matter? Let's say he's still "holding firm" 3 years from now (just to make an argument here). Is he still unjudgable? I think it's pretty clear he can't just wait indefinitely. A deal actually being conceived in a reasonable timeframe is a huge factor and I think the OP is making the point that, while not unheard of, the amount this process has dragged out has been exceptionally uncommon. 

IMO, Adams has been on the clock since the day Krueger was fired.  It's his show now.  And just because the team isn't yet bad doesn't mean people can't see what a mess it is for at least 2021-22.  The forwards especially need serious additions and Adams looked at trading Eichel to form that added talent.  Without that, I fail to see where they add those players and become a playoff team.  

Furtherhmore, I'm not sure the timeline is ever met (2-3 seasons) for them to reach the playoffs if Eichel isn't traded.  KA didn't want to relent on the surgery...OK given the risk involved.  But if Eichel is as toxic as some are making it, how do you sell at your (Adams') asking price that player to another team?  

 

[K-9]

55 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

 

IMO, Adams has been on the clock since the day Krueger was fired.  It's his show now.  And just because the team isn't yet bad doesn't mean people can't see what a mess it is for at least 2021-22.  The forwards especially need serious additions and Adams looked at trading Eichel to form that added talent.  Without that, I fail to see where they add those players and become a playoff team.  

Furtherhmore, I'm not sure the timeline is ever met (2-3 seasons) for them to reach the playoffs if Eichel isn't traded.  KA didn't want to relent on the surgery...OK given the risk involved.  But if Eichel is as toxic as some are making it, how do you sell at your (Adams') asking price that player to another team?  

 

Because Eichel’s toxicity is totally related to his situation here and the presumption is that he wouldn’t carry that toxicity to a new situation with a team eagerly looking to welcome him aboard. 
 

It’s all a moot point until he proves he’s healthy though, so patience is all we have at the moment. 

[Brawndo]

Dreger mentioned that Jack saw a team of medical specialists and some agreed with having the ADR performed and that the Sabres are adamant about Eichel having the ACDF. 
 

Yes it’s Dreger, but based on His Wording is it possible or even probable that more Specialists agree with the Sabres Medical Staff about the fusion compared to those who recommend the ADR? 

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Dreger mentioned that Jack saw a team of medical specialists and some agreed with having the ADR performed and that the Sabres are adamant about Eichel having the ACDF. 
 

Yes it’s Dreger, but based on His Wording is it possible or even probable that more Specialists agree with the Sabres Medical Staff about the fusion compared to those who recommend the ADR? 

I think that’s been the thought from the beginning.

[bunomatic]

3 hours ago, irregularly irregular said:

Sorry Bun, can't do that. John Boy is a valuable commodity and maximizing return is vitally important for the Sabres going forward.

Yeah agreed. Kind of tired of the drama. Hopefully we get somewhere near value in this fiasco.

[JoeSchmoe]

9 hours ago, K-9 said:

What points to KA not working with Eichel? Is it just saying no to a surgery Eichel prefers? A surgery not recommended by well established medical best practices? A surgery the Sabres are not indemnified against and that has the potential to void insurance policies? Since when does “working with me” mean acquiescing to my every demand? 

And if KA is tweaked that players aren’t putting the team first? More power to him. That’s not an old school trait in the least. It’s part and parcel to sustained excellence. And every great team in sports is loaded with players that do that; from the last guy on the bench nobody notices much to the superstars who get all the glory. Any players giving less are soon drummed out. 

So you don't see the nuanced "our way or the highway" tone vs a "this is a tough situation and we're trying to our best to find an amicable solution" tone.

Edited September 23, 2021 by JoeSchmoe

[Andrew Amerk]

19 hours ago, Hoss said:

I find it odd that people are just sitting there and saying they respect KA exclusively because a deal hasn't happened. We don't know what deals have or haven't been offered. We do know this situation looks historically bad for the franchise. That's enough for me to say Adams is completely lost here and the situation will only continue to spiral until a deal is done.

You seemed to have answered yourself here. 

As you said, we don’t know what deals were offered. Maybe they were all very lowball offers. Doesn’t mean KA is “lost” if that’s the case. We simply don’t know. 

[K-9]

44 minutes ago, JoeSchmoe said:

So you don't see the nuanced "our way or the highway" tone vs a "this is a tough situation and we're trying to our best to find an amicable solution" tone.

I think everybody involved sees it as the tough situation it is. But I see a team not indemnified against a certain type of surgery on an asset they have tens of millions invested in and a frustrated player. The only “my way or the highway” sentiments I’ve seen expressed have been from Eichel’s camp starting with his exit presser in May and culminating with the propaganda stunt with the doctor in Colorado in the summer.