The Sabres, Eichel, NHL and NHLPA had a meeting regarding Jack

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, SabresVet said:

I wouldn't approach this with a conventional mindset.  There are untold variables that can change to drive a new result.  

What does "wait out Adams" mean though?  I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

What does "wait out Adams" mean though?  I don't understand what you're trying to say.

No data.

Maybe it means, if trends hold, he gets a new GM to butt heads with in only 2 more years?  He'll still have 3 years left on his contract.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

What does "wait out Adams" mean though?  I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Brisson is going to wait 5 years for Jack to become a FA?

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, SabresVet said:

Some items to consider.  If this drags into camp, Eichel shows, fails the physical and goes on IR.  It'll be a topic of conversation hovering over the organization regardless. That's not what a youthful team that is going to hang out near the bottom of the standings wants as a distraction 

Or, if he shows, what if he passes the physical and begins playing...does a team losing money and sure to do more of that in 2021-22 want that contract?  Pegula has reportedly balked at retaining any of Jack's salary, so I could see that hastening a move if this goes to camp.  

Brisson can wait out Adams as well.  He's the biggest agent in the NHL and I'm pretty sure he can play hardball too.  

No one in the locker room is going to give a crap that Eichel is on IR. They will be focused on other things than a player most of them haven't played with in almost a year. 

He passes the physical and plays, he ups his value. There's no evidence Pegula has balked at retention but their is evidence that Adams would prefer not to retain things for 5 years which makes a lot of sense. 

Lol wait out Adams? What's Brisson going to do, sit around for the next 5 years? Adams has all the cards and I love ppl trying to argue the opposite. If the opposite were true, Eichel would have been traded. Adams set the price and jack stays unless that price is met. Brisson can either get his client healthy or work his connections to get the Sabres their asking price. 

I love how everyone seems to assume it is Brisson versus Adams instead of Brisson + Adams versus the league here. If they combine together they can then use their new leverage to get a fair offer and get Eichel traded. Makes more sense than Brisson fighting Adams. 

[Marvin]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

Although you have not fully returned to complete normal are you steadily getting better? Is the next month better than the previous month? As I said with Hoss I wish you the best. I don't wish this infection on anyone. 

I keep improving, but I am starting to despair that I will get my stamina back.  I am hoping the work schedule and lock downs are responsible too.

[darksabre]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No one in the locker room is going to give a crap that Eichel is on IR. They will be focused on other things than a player most of them haven't played with in almost a year. 

He passes the physical and plays, he ups his value. There's no evidence Pegula has balked at retention but their is evidence that Adams would prefer not to retain things for 5 years which makes a lot of sense. 

Lol wait out Adams? What's Brisson going to do, sit around for the next 5 years? Adams has all the cards and I love ppl trying to argue the opposite. If the opposite were true, Eichel would have been traded. Adams set the price and jack stays unless that price is met. Brisson can either get his client healthy or work his connections to get the Sabres their asking price. 

I love how everyone seems to assume it is Brisson versus Adams instead of Brisson + Adams versus the league here. If they combine together they can then use their new leverage to get a fair offer and get Eichel traded. Makes more sense than Brisson fighting Adams. 

I'm glad someone understands what is going on lol 

[SabresVet]

18 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No one in the locker room is going to give a crap that Eichel is on IR. They will be focused on other things than a player most of them haven't played with in almost a year. 

He passes the physical and plays, he ups his value. There's no evidence Pegula has balked at retention but their is evidence that Adams would prefer not to retain things for 5 years which makes a lot of sense. 

Lol wait out Adams? What's Brisson going to do, sit around for the next 5 years? Adams has all the cards and I love ppl trying to argue the opposite. If the opposite were true, Eichel would have been traded. Adams set the price and jack stays unless that price is met. Brisson can either get his client healthy or work his connections to get the Sabres their asking price. 

I love how everyone seems to assume it is Brisson versus Adams instead of Brisson + Adams versus the league here. If they combine together they can then use their new leverage to get a fair offer and get Eichel traded. Makes more sense than Brisson fighting Adams. 

You think Adams has all the cards?  How do you know the agent is boxed in and has no room to maneuver?  Or, that Brisson, who just picked up a big client very unhappy with his team's management, will help said team?  You've got to be kidding.    

This is a negotiation not a party dude.  Brisson doesn't care what the return Buffalo receives back.  

I'm not predicting what this agent will do, only that something will happen where pressure is placed on the organization.  Or, they'll come to some agreement that moves them out of the current stalemate.  

 

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, SabresVet said:

Or, that Brisson, who just picked up a big client very unhappy with his team's management, will help said team? 

Because by helping that team get the return they want, they can move his client per his wishes.  Win-win.  Not everything in sports is a dickwaving contest; sometimes there's mutual interest.

If anything, I think the reason that Fish was fired is he was competing with Adams which was impinging on the trade process.  If he was fired for that, the next agent was brought in to make the process less combative.

[Curt]

2 hours ago, SabresVet said:

You think Adams has all the cards?  How do you know the agent is boxed in and has no room to maneuver?  Or, that Brisson, who just picked up a big client very unhappy with his team's management, will help said team?  You've got to be kidding.    

This is a negotiation not a party dude.  Brisson doesn't care what the return Buffalo receives back.  

I'm not predicting what this agent will do, only that something will happen where pressure is placed on the organization.  Or, they'll come to some agreement that moves them out of the current stalemate.  

 

It is a negotiation, but it’s not a negotiation between Eichel’s camp and Adams.  It’s a negotiation between Adams and any team that is interested in trading for Eichel.

If Eichel and Adams both want the same thing, a trade, then working against each other doesn’t help anyone.  There is no reason that they shouldn’t both be working towards the same thing.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Curt

[RangerDave]

3 hours ago, SabresVet said:

You think Adams has all the cards?  How do you know the agent is boxed in and has no room to maneuver?

Adams has Eichel under contract for the next 5 years.  That is the only card he needs.  Either Eichel plays under that contract, or Adams gets the value he needs in a trade. 

Also, personally, I think the rest of the team has already written Jack Eichel off as far as playing for the Sabres again.  I've been on teams where one of our best players was not happy and we all felt better when he left the team, skill level or not.  Just more playing time for the rest of us.

As far as management goes, I think they have written Jack Eichel off as well.  Play or not, what difference does it make if he is not helping the team because he is unhappy.  Any assets they get in a trade that improve the team are just gravy.  That said, the assets have to help the team, not just be bodies that take time away from the players who want to play and are happy here.

I could be wrong, but if I was in their shoes, that is how I would feel.

Edited September 1, 2021 by RangerDave
Had to insert "Eichel" between "Jack" and "off" so I do not offend the censors! LOL

[Thorner]

15 hours ago, RangerDave said:

Adams has Eichel under contract for the next 5 years.  That is the only card he needs.  Either Eichel plays under that contract, or Adams gets the value he needs in a trade. 

Also, personally, I think the rest of the team has already written Jack Eichel off as far as playing for the Sabres again.  I've been on teams where one of our best players was not happy and we all felt better when he left the team, skill level or not.  Just more playing time for the rest of us.

As far as management goes, I think they have written Jack Eichel off as well.  Play or not, what difference does it make if he is not helping the team because he is unhappy.  Any assets they get in a trade that improve the team are just gravy.  That said, the assets have to help the team, not just be bodies that take time away from the players who want to play and are happy here.

I could be wrong, but if I was in their shoes, that is how I would feel.

The bolded is where I take issue. I'm not sure when Eichel switched over from an asset we couldn't afford to squander to the return on said asset being "just gravy", but that's definitely not the case. I get that because the team has convinced everyone winning next season doesn't matter it's being perceived that Adams letting Eichel sit for 5 years and then leave would be a satisfactory resolution for Buffalo, but it really wouldn't be. 

Eichel represents too valuable a piece to not get a solid return; consider what we sacrificed to get him. In order for the rebuild to have a realistic chance of succeeding we can't fail to convert the asset into significant value: the rebuild needs that currency. 

Adams is waiting on the deal because he knows this. Time is "on his side" as compared to Eichel, but really, it's on no one's side. Would it be a positive situation for Buffalo if Jack sits another, say, two years (this is a hypothetical)? No, we'd be losing out a big piece of necessary and mineable value. The longer it drags out, the longer everyone, on both sides, is affected negatively. 

Adams controls when something happens, he has that power, the ball is in his court. But make no mistake, "nothing" happening isn't good for anyone. It's what I was talking about the other day and you mention it directly in your post - people are writing Jack Eichel off mentally and making the mistake of thinking the conversion of that asset is now more less inconsequential. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Thorny

[pi2000]

33 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Adams controls when something happens, he has that power, the ball is in his court. But make no mistake, "nothing" happening isn't good for anyone. 

Adams doesn't control what offers are coming in.   The worst thing he could do is panic sell because some imaginary clock is ticking down to zero.    His patience will be rewarded.

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Adams doesn't control what offers are coming in.   The worst thing he could do is panic sell because some imaginary clock is ticking down to zero.    His patience will be rewarded.

Ya I mean I never argued for a panic sell off. Merely pointing out that it's not logically sounds to "write off" the asset and then consider ourselves satisfied by any old return. Adams is holding for precisely that reason. 

The return isn't "gravy", it's the "meat and potatoes" and it's why it's taking so long

Edited September 1, 2021 by Thorny

[Flashsabre]

Maybe the outcome of the meeting was the NHL and NHLPA saying, "Seriously Jack, like WTF" and Jack realized he needed to change the pathway forward.

[RangerDave]

57 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The bolded is where I take issue. I'm not sure when Eichel switched over from an asset we couldn't afford to squander to the return on said asset being "just gravy", but that's definitely not the case. I get that because the team has convinced everyone winning next season doesn't matter it's being perceived that Adams letting Eichel sit for 5 years and then leave would be a satisfactory resolution for Buffalo, but it really wouldn't be. 

Eichel represents too valuable a piece to not get a solid return; consider what we sacrificed to get him. In order for the rebuild to have a realistic chance of succeeding we can't fail to convert the asset into significant value: the rebuild needs that currency. 

Adams is waiting on the deal because he knows this. Time is "on his side" as compared to Eichel, but really, it's on no one's side. Would it be a positive situation for Buffalo if Jack sits another, say, two years (this is a hypothetical)? No, we'd be losing out a big piece of necessary and mineable value. The longer it drags out, the longer everyone, on both sides, is affected negatively. 

Adams controls when something happens, he has that power, the ball is in his court. But make no mistake, "nothing" happening isn't good for anyone. It's what I was talking about the other day and you mention it directly in your post - people are writing Jack Eichel off mentally and making the mistake of thinking the conversion of that asset is now more less inconsequential. 

I used a poor choice of words there.  I don't think Adams wants Jack to sit around for 5 years at $10M/year.  I think Adams would love to have Eichel return to the team, healthy and happy.  That version of Eichel would be a great asset for this team in those 5 years, hopefully starting earlier rather than later.  Possibly later this season.

What I meant was that if Jack is determined to never play for the Sabres again, Adams wants to get something that will add value to the team in return.  If he does that, the team will be in a better position than they are now with either Jack sitting out or Jack playing unhappily and affecting the team morale.

[Taro T]

27 minutes ago, RangerDave said:

I used a poor choice of words there.  I don't think Adams wants Jack to sit around for 5 years at $10M/year.  I think Adams would love to have Eichel return to the team, healthy and happy.  That version of Eichel would be a great asset for this team in those 5 years, hopefully starting earlier rather than later.  Possibly later this season.

What I meant was that if Jack is determined to never play for the Sabres again, Adams wants to get something that will add value to the team in return.  If he does that, the team will be in a better position than they are now with either Jack sitting out or Jack playing unhappily and affecting the team morale.

Don't believe the bolded is remotely accurate.  Believe Adams begrudgingly went along w/ trying to build an Eichel-centric team last season, but as soon as it went south was perfectly fine with getting rid of him.

And, now, here we are.

[RangerDave]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Don't believe the bolded is remotely accurate.  Believe Adams begrudgingly went along w/ trying to build an Eichel-centric team last season, but as soon as it went south was perfectly fine with getting rid of him.

And, now, here we are.

Could be.  I just think Eichel is a very good player when his head is in the game and he is healthy.  A healthy and happy Eichel would be great for the team.  Unfortunately, I don't see that happening in Buffalo.  Hence, "here we are", in your immortal words.  🙂

[Weave]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

Don't believe the bolded is remotely accurate.  Believe Adams begrudgingly went along w/ trying to build an Eichel-centric team last season, but as soon as it went south was perfectly fine with getting rid of him.

And, now, here we are.

I tend to agree.  It appears to me that KA has come to the conclusion that building around Jack isn’t the path he is most comfortable with.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, RangerDave said:

Could be.  I just think Eichel is a very good player when his head is in the game and he is healthy.  A healthy and happy Eichel would be great for the team.  Unfortunately, I don't see that happening in Buffalo.  Hence, "here we are", in your immortal words.  🙂

Agreed.

[Cityo'Rasmii]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Agreed.

x2

[Andrew Amerk]

3 hours ago, RangerDave said:

Could be.  I just think Eichel is a very good player when his head is in the game and he is healthy.  A healthy and happy Eichel would be great for the team.  Unfortunately, I don't see that happening in Buffalo.  Hence, "here we are", in your immortal words.  🙂

This was my stance shortly after his presser meltdown.

I have slowly drifted in the past few months towards the idea that other fanbases have been saying - that he is a me-first, selfish, non-team player with a negative attitude that may not be worth having, despite his level of talent. 

If KA is trying to model his new team as a mirror to what Beane and McD did...Eichel doesn’t fit. 

[Thorner]

14 hours ago, Weave said:

I tend to agree.  It appears to me that KA has come to the conclusion that building around Jack isn’t the path he is most comfortable with.

Yup, add me to the "agrees". 

And it's a big part of why I don't think it makes sense to assassinate his character at every chance possible - think of it from his point of view. If KA was the instigator in the process, and like @dudacektheorized very early on, during interviews KA reinforced to Jack he was being shopped, I can certainly at least understand the frustration from Jack's point of view. He's sitting there as a member of a team who doesn't want him, who won't let him seek the care he personally wants (rightly or wrongly), who can't seem to pull the trigger on getting him moved. 

Of course the strategy Jack and his team undertook to apparently speed up the process was dumb and backfired, and he wears that- but in the context of an organization that mentally severed ties first, considering the level of commitment we know Jack put forth over the years? I'd be annoyed, too. If we go ahead and attribute the agent's doings fully to Jack, I'd say it's fair to classify him as "wrong", and I would. But why one would feel the need to cast a thorough judgement on his character and call him a "prick" or an "assh*le" is beyond me. 

In the scenario where KA actually wanted to keep Jack all along, and Jack was the instigator in trying to initiate a deal, full stop, my sympathy lessens greatly. I still wouldn't hold wanting out against him, I guess I just don't care, it's not like the organization did him and the roster composition any favors over the years anyways, but I probably wouldn't feel the need to waste the amount of energy I am on this.

13 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

This was my stance shortly after his presser meltdown.

I have slowly drifted in the past few months towards the idea that other fanbases have been saying - that he is a me-first, selfish, non-team player with a negative attitude that may not be worth having, despite his level of talent. 

If KA is trying to model his new team as a mirror to what Beane and McD did...Eichel doesn’t fit. 

Why pay more attention to random fans when there are numerous recent quotes from teammates applauding Jack's leadership and commitment to his team and the city, which I have quoted in these threads numerous times? Actually asking

Edited September 2, 2021 by Thorny

[Weave]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Yup, add me to the "agrees". 

And it's a big part of why I don't think it makes sense to assassinate his character at every chance possible - think of it from his point of view. If KA was the instigator in the process, and like @dudacektheorized very early on, during interviews KA reinforced to Jack he was being shopped, I can certainly at least understand the frustration from Jack's point of view. He's sitting there as a member of a team who doesn't want him, who won't let him seek the care he personally wants (rightly or wrongly), who can't seem to pull the trigger on getting him moved. 

I see Jacks response to this as symptomatic (not cause of, but a symptom of ((because I know someone won’t make that distinction))) of the reasons why KA doesn’t think Jack is a guy to build around. No, Jack may not have started this, but I suspect Jacks response to this is how Jack may generally respond to negative outcomes.  And viewed from that context, I can’t say I have any sympathy.  Or any other emotion for that matter.  Like Watkins, he just may not be what Buffalo needs to form a cornerstone.  And at his salary he absolutely needs to be a cornerstone.
 

Frankly, I trust KA a helluva lot more than I trust the opinions of the fanbase.  KA sees Jack regularly, sees the interactions, knows how a locker room should be, and has experienced what a successful team requires.  He'll get my benefit of the doubt until shown otherwise.  All of us are outsiders with bigger opinions of our opinions than we deserve.  Mine included.

[nfreeman]

As to the question of whether Jack's disenchantment started when he learned that KA was shopping him (if that's indeed what happened) -- I think the question probably oversimplifies the situation.

We all saw how good Jack was a couple of seasons ago.  KA saw it too.  And yet KA putatively decided that Jack had to go.  Why on earth would KA make that determination if there weren't other, serious, issues with Jack?

It just seems insane to think that KA would decide to unload a franchise #1 C without a really good reason.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I see Jacks response to this as symptomatic (not cause of, but a symptom of ((because I know someone won’t make that distinction))) of the reasons why KA doesn’t think Jack is a guy to build around. No, Jack may not have started this, but I suspect Jacks response to this is how Jack may generally respond to negative outcomes.  And viewed from that context, I can’t say I have any sympathy.  Or any other emotion for that matter.  Like Watkins, he just may not be what Buffalo needs to form a cornerstone.  And at his salary he absolutely needs to be a cornerstone.
 

Frankly, I trust KA a helluva lot more than I trust the opinions of the fanbase.  KA sees Jack regularly, sees the interactions, knows how a locker room should be, and has experienced what a successful team requires.  He'll get my benefit of the doubt until shown otherwise.  All of us are outsiders with bigger opinions of our opinions than we deserve.  Mine included.

No problem with this line of thinking at all. I would stress though that thinking Jack might not be a good player to build a hockey team around doesn’t equate to Jack being “selfish” or a “prick” or any of the terms being bandied about. We also don’t know the reasons, either: KA could easily think he needs to move him because he considers him too beaten down from years of losing and therefore a magnet for potential negativity - there are several players, long time Sabres, KA has moved/feels the need to move.

Because I agree with your argument, and it cuts both ways: if we want to focus on the opinions of those in the know: apologies to “js dea”, but Jack has drawn rave reviews from his teammates, with recent strong quotes backing him from the likes of Jake McCabe, a player I don’t see anyone questioning the character of. Looking at the overall picture here I think is most fair. 

Jack Eichel has flaws? SHOCKING, I say. In the end the takes that are wholly negative where he is concerned won’t ever not read as if written by a jilted lover.