Goaltending this season and Beyond

[JohnC]

14 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

The super yacht leaks once in awhile. 

From a hockey perspective that yacht is adrift and is lost in a storm of its own making. 

[SabresVet]

Have read comments in other threads about the goaltending being bad last season aside from Ullmark when people evaluated Granato's record.

Several other things going on at the time, but with Ullmark leaving and the roster showing UPL, Anderson, Dell and Tokarski I would hope this same reason isn't put forward if/when the Sabres struggles this season.

At some point, it's not merely the goaltending that's bad...it's the executives putting this roster on the ice believing it'll be sufficient.  Or maybe they know it's not good and accept that.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 hours ago, SabresVet said:

Have read comments in other threads about the goaltending being bad last season aside from Ullmark when people evaluated Granato's record.

Several other things going on at the time, but with Ullmark leaving and the roster showing UPL, Anderson, Dell and Tokarski I would hope this same reason isn't put forward if/when the Sabres struggles this season.

At some point, it's not merely the goaltending that's bad...it's the executives putting this roster on the ice believing it'll be sufficient.  Or maybe they know it's not good and accept that.  

They have to know UPL isn't ready and that if Anderson and Dell are the primary Sabres goaltenders that the goaltending will be as bad if not worse then last year.  This is simply called a "tank."  The only saving grace at this point is that we have only 5 goaltenders in the organization.  That leaves a tiny grain of hope that KA isn't done on the goaltending front.  I hope he thinks he can grab someone when teams cut goaltenders to get to the roster limits during camp.  Last year Nedjelkovic was waived by Carolina just before the season.  

Edited August 18, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

They have to know UPL isn't ready and that if Anderson and Dell are the primary Sabres goaltenders that the goaltending will be as bad if not worse then last year.  This is simply called a "tank."  The only saving grace at this point is that we have only 5 goaltenders in the organization.  That leaves a tiny grain of hope that KA isn't done on the goaltending front.  I hope he thinks he can grab someone when teams cut goaltenders to get to the roster limits during camp.  Last year Nedjelkovic was waived by Carolina just before the season.  

Why are you assuming the organization believes that UPL isn't ready?  Why is it not conceivable that the staff is willing to give UPL an opportunity to not only make the roster but also play him, at least to see if he can handle a substantial or less than substantial role in net? Too many people rigidly hold to a tenet that a young goalie has to play so many games at a lower level before being ready to play as a NHL goalie. That conventional approach might be the usual standard but there can be exceptions to the rule that isn't actually an rule.  

Cozens was rushed to the NHL and he acquitted himself very well until he fizzled at the end of the season. Mitts was rushed before he was ready and he struggled. He made a giant stride last year under Granato. 

No one who is realistic is going to argue that this is a playoff roster. But because of where this team is in its rebuild it might make sense to be aggressive in playing young players to see exactly what they are capable of. I'm not arguing that you should or should not play young players sooner than usual. What I am saying is let's not close the door on a player just because he is young and inexperienced. Let's be open-minded and allow players to show whether they can handle the jump to the NHL. That should be determined in training camp.

[GASabresIUFAN]

How do we know UPL isn’t ready?  
Last years stats
14 AHL games :  3.60 gaa .888 save%
4 NHL games:  3.88 .906 save%

Those are the stats of a guy still learning to play goal in the pros. Those are not the stats of even a mediocre NHL backup.

If the management team thinks he is ready, then they shouldn’t be managing an NHL team. Truthfully there is zero reason to rush UPL.  We took our time with Ullmark and were rewarded for it. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[JohnC]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

How do we know UPL isn’t ready?  
Last years stats
14 AHL games :  3.60 gaa .888 save%
4 NHL games:  3.88 .906 save%

Those are the stats of a guy still learning to play goal in the pros. Those are not the stats of even a mediocre NHL backup.

If the management team thinks he is ready, then they shouldn’t be managing an NHL team. 

The Rochester team was stripped of much of its talent because the better players were brought up to the big club. That's the context in which those stats were based on. What's your fear? He will be given an opportunity to play in training camp and exhibition games. If he can't handle the higher level of play he won't make the roster. If he shows that he can play as well or better than the goalies he is competing with then why shouldn't he be on the roster? 

[LabattBlue]

28 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The Rochester team was stripped of much of its talent because the better players were brought up to the big club. That's the context in which those stats were based on. What's your fear? He will be given an opportunity to play in training camp and exhibition games. If he can't handle the higher level of play he won't make the roster. If he shows that he can play as well or better than the goalies he is competing with then why shouldn't he be on the roster? 

Just because UPL might be better than all the crap KA signed, that are posing as goaltending competition, does not mean he is NHL ready.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

29 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The Rochester team was stripped of much of its talent because the better players were brought up to the big club. That's the context in which those stats were based on. What's your fear? He will be given an opportunity to play in training camp and exhibition games. If he can't handle the higher level of play he won't make the roster. If he shows that he can play as well or better than the goalies he is competing with then why shouldn't he be on the roster? 

So we should just throw him to the wolves like we did Mitts? That makes zero sense.  How about developing someone properly instead.  

2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Just because UPL might be better than all the crap KA signed, that are posing as goaltending competition, does not mean he is NHL ready.  

Amen brother!

[French Collection]

I cannot believe that there is not another goalie picked up via trade (Jack) or waivers that is better than Dell.

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, French Collection said:

I cannot believe that there is not another goalie picked up via trade (Jack) or waivers that is better than Dell.

...and Anderson, and Tokarski, and Houser, and UPL. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The Rochester team was stripped of much of its talent because the better players were brought up to the big club. That's the context in which those stats were based on. What's your fear? He will be given an opportunity to play in training camp and exhibition games. If he can't handle the higher level of play he won't make the roster. If he shows that he can play as well or better than the goalies he is competing with then why shouldn't he be on the roster? 

Lets assume for arguments sake that UPL isn’t ready and gets sent down. Do you think that some combo of Dell, Tokarski and Anderson is proper support for a young team that would seriously benefit from solid goaltending in their quest to learn how to win in the NHL?  Or do you think tank 2.0 is the way to go for a team managed by a GM with zero real experience building an NHL team?

[JohnC]

38 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So we should just throw him to the wolves like we did Mitts? That makes zero sense.  How about developing someone properly instead.  

 

You have your own narrative and are not responding to what I actually stated. What the heck are you talking about with your throwing to the wolves comment? What I did say is the opposite of your distortion. I said that he should be given the opportunity to compete for a job in training camp. That's a far cry from throwing him into a pack of wolves scenario. If he demonstrates that he can handle the higher level of play and he outperforms the other goalies that he is competing with for a roster spot, then why shouldn't he have a roster spot that he earned?

What are you afraid of in giving him an opportunity to compete for a job? You have often stated that the current goaltending staffing is less than stellar. I agree with your assessment. That is an assessment that is obvious to most of us. If he doesn't play well enough in camp, he will be shipped back to Rochester. If he does play well enough to earn a roster spot then good for him. If he plays well to earn a roster spot but falters when the regular season starts then send him back down. What's the problem with that?  

[JohnC]

54 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Just because UPL might be better than all the crap KA signed, that are posing as goaltending competition, does not mean he is NHL ready.  

Let his play speak for itself. If he is better than the other players then he should be afforded the opportunity to play. If he can't handle his position at the higher level then send him back down to Rochester. 

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lets assume for arguments sake that UPL isn’t ready and gets sent down. Do you think that some combo of Dell, Tokarski and Anderson is proper support for a young team that would seriously benefit from solid goaltending in their quest to learn how to win in the NHL?  Or do you think tank 2.0 is the way to go fopur a team managed by a GM with zero real experience building an NHL team?

Let me be clear with no equivocation: I'm not advocating tanking for whatever reason. It will have more of a damaging than positive effect with this young roster. If UPL isn't ready and is sent down, then so be it. Your list of paltry goaltenders is inadequate. That's not a difficult judgment to make.  Maybe Anderson can serve as a useful backup but that group as a unit is grossly inadequate. I don't know if it will happen through a trade or a waiver cut but there needs to be help brought in.    

[PromoTheRobot]

I don't know how good Aaron Dell will be but he's going to look sharp on the ice.

 

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

You have your own narrative and are not responding to what I actually stated. What the heck are you talking about with your throwing to the wolves comment? What I did say is the opposite of your distortion. I said that he should be given the opportunity to compete for a job in training camp. That's a far cry from throwing him into a pack of wolves scenario. If he demonstrates that he can handle the higher level of play and he outperforms the other goalies that he is competing with for a roster spot, then why shouldn't he have a roster spot that he earned?

What are you afraid of in giving him an opportunity to compete for a job? You have often stated that the current goaltending staffing is less than stellar. I agree with your assessment. That is an assessment that is obvious to most of us. If he doesn't play well enough in camp, he will be shipped back to Rochester. If he does play well enough to earn a roster spot then good for him. If he plays well to earn a roster spot but falters when the regular season starts then send him back down. What's the problem with that?  

Here is the problem, for your concept to work it has to be a legit competition.  It's not.  You even admit all the goalies not named UPL are garbage.  UPL can win the competition without being legitimately NHL ready.  He just has top beat out 2 guys who shouldn't be in the NHL anyway and weren't last year for the most part.  If KA wanted a real competition in the net, he'd have brought in someone who actually played full time in the NHL and had a GAA 3.0 or less.  Instead he brings in a guy who played 7 NHL games with a GAA of over 4 and a 40 year goalie contemplating retirement after playing only 4 NHL games last year.  

The truth is KA's plan isn't a real competition.  He stated that he thinks the goaltending is adequate and that he brought in Anderson to mentor UPL.  That leads to only one conclusion; that UPL and Anderson are the de facto NHL tandem.  No way Anderson will be mentoring UPL in Rochester and leaving the NHL net to Tokarski and Dell.  This is a dreadful path.  Instead of grooming UPL properly to be an solid NHL starter as we did with Ullmark, you're rushing someone to the NHL before they are ready and as we have seen before, that can destroy a prospect.

Unless the plan is another tank, then KA must bring at least one legit NHL goalie because the 5 guys we have now will allow 4 goals a night.  

Edited August 19, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I don't know how good Aaron Dell will be but he's going to look sharp on the ice.

 

 

 

I might actually watch the Sabres next year if he is playing.

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I don't know how good Aaron Dell will be but he's going to look sharp on the ice.

 

 

 

Saw these somewhere else and think they are great, but how good would they work in Rochester?

He does this for all the teams he ends up with (had some nice Devils pads but his best were the Sharks pads)

I'm assuming if he had these made, he has been told that its most likely he starts on the roster here

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Here is the problem, for your concept to work it has to be a legit competition.  It's not.  You even admit all the goalies not named UPL are garbage.  UPL can win the competition without being legitimately NHL ready.  He just has top beat out 2 guys who shouldn't be in the NHL anyway and weren't last year for the most part.  If KA wanted a real competition in the net, he'd have brought in someone who actually played full time in the NHL and had a GAA 3.0 or less.  Instead he brings in a guy who played 7 NHL games with a GAA of over 4 and a 40 year goalie contemplating retirement after playing only 4 NHL games last year.  

The truth is KA's plan isn't a real competition.  He stated that he thinks the goaltending is adequate and that he brought in Anderson to mentor UPL.  That leads to only one conclusion; that UPL and Anderson are the de facto NHL tandem.  No way Anderson will be mentoring UPL in Rochester and leaving the NHL net to Tokarski and Dell.  This is a dreadful path.  Instead of grooming UPL properly to be an solid NHL starter as we did with Ullmark, you're rushing someone to the NHL before they are ready and as we have seen before, that can destroy a prospect.

Unless the plan is another tank, then KA must bring at least one legit NHL goalie because the 5 guys we have now will allow 4 goals a night.  

The highlighted segment is what I think is going to materialize this season. That's exactly what I have stated. The test for UPL will come in training camp. Again, that is what I have stated. If UPL demonstrates that he can handle the elevated role he will assume that role. Where I clearly disagree with you is that I don't believe by rushing UPL you are ruining him. If he can't handle this league then he will be shipped back down. I simply don't believe that his psyche is as fragile as you do if his stint doesn't work out well.  

Would I like to see another credible goalie added to the mix? Of course. The goalie I had my eyes on was Vitek Vanecek, who was a young Washington goalie who played well as a rookie and was selected by Seattle in the expansion draft. After the draft he was flipped back to Washington for a second round pick. Assuming that a pre-draft deal wasn't made between the two teams he would have been a terrific pickup for Buffalo for a second round pick. If you consider a durability factor he might even be better than Ullmark. 

I agree with you that our goaltending situation is at best precarious. Shoring up that critical position would allow this young roster to at least be competitive. It would also provide a more favorable environment to develop players. I, like you, am hoping that another credible goalie will be added to the mix. If not, then this is another throw-away year with the fanbase continuing on with its fading presence. When you roll the dice you are gambling. That's what is happening here. 

 

[bob_sauve28]

11 hours ago, JohnC said:

Let his play speak for itself. If he is better than the other players then he should be afforded the opportunity to play. If he can't handle his position at the higher level then send him back down to Rochester. 

I'd love it if he takes the torch and runs with it. I just have not been inspired by what I have seen so far. I hope I am wrong. 

[Pimlach]

12 hours ago, JohnC said:

You have your own narrative and are not responding to what I actually stated. What the heck are you talking about with your throwing to the wolves comment? What I did say is the opposite of your distortion. I said that he should be given the opportunity to compete for a job in training camp. That's a far cry from throwing him into a pack of wolves scenario. If he demonstrates that he can handle the higher level of play and he outperforms the other goalies that he is competing with for a roster spot, then why shouldn't he have a roster spot that he earned?

What are you afraid of in giving him an opportunity to compete for a job? You have often stated that the current goaltending staffing is less than stellar. I agree with your assessment. That is an assessment that is obvious to most of us. If he doesn't play well enough in camp, he will be shipped back to Rochester. If he does play well enough to earn a roster spot then good for him. If he plays well to earn a roster spot but falters when the regular season starts then send him back down. What's the problem with that?  

You are missing the point.  Sure, he can compete but he is competing against a very low chinning bar. He can beat out Dell and Anderson and Tokarski and still not be ready to play in the NHL.  
 

On the other hand Don Edwards was thrust into action at aged 22 and he was ready.  That was a long time ago and Edwards was already looking good in Rochester but he actually played even better in the NHL, albeit behind a good team.  
 

Can UPL repeat that behind a very poor team?   We shall see. His AHL performance to date suggests he is not ready but maybe he takes that step.  Seems like a bad plan to me.  
 

 

 

 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Pimlach said:

You are missing the point.  Sure, he can compete but he is competing against a very low chinning bar. He can beat out Dell and Anderson and Tokarski and still not be ready to play in the NHL.  
 

On the other hand Don Edwards was thrust into action at aged 22 and he was ready.  That was a long time ago and Edwards was already looking good in Rochester but he actually played even better in the NHL, albeit behind a good team.  
 

Can UPL repeat that behind a very poor team?   We shall see. His AHL performance to date suggests he is not ready but maybe he takes that step.  Seems like a bad plan to me.  
 

 

 

 

I am not missing the point. I'm well aware that the goaltending staffing is inadequate. That's the stark reality that is apparent to most of us. If UPL beats out the other tenders and his play is inadequate then he gets sent down. That's not a rare occurrence for young players.  I don't accept the ingrained concept that so many people are tethered to that a goalie has to play a prescribed number of games before he is ready to play in the NHL. If UPL is the exception to the rule then that is something that should be exalted. If he becomes an example of the rule then he will be demoted to the AHL for further prepping. The notion that he will be irretrievably damaged because of his hard knock experience makes little sense to me. Even if he fails it can be a learning experience for him. 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

@JohnC

The difference between us is I want UPL in Rochester where he has a chance to backstop a winning team.  I see no benefit to him and his development in getting shelled each night in the NHL behind a young defensive zone challenged defense on a team designed to fail. 

 

 

[JohnC]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

@JohnC

The difference between us is I want UPL in Rochester where he has a chance to backstop a winning team.  I see no benefit to him and his development in getting shelled each night in the NHL behind a young defensive zone challenged defense on a team designed to fail. 

 

 

There were plenty of young players last year who played on a losing and deficient team who benefited from their rushed NHL experience. If UPL struggles he will be sent down just as Mitts was sent down for further prepping. Even in failing it is often a better learning experience than succeeding in a lower level. 

Most of us acknowledge that the Sabres are rebuilding. It's not unusual that young players get rushed in that setting. Some young players such as Cozens demonstrate that they belong while other young players such as Mitts it is evident that they are not ready. They end up being sent down for more schooling. This is a time not to be so timid and be more willing to risk playing a youngster sooner rather than later. 

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

I am not missing the point. I'm well aware that the goaltending staffing is inadequate. That's the stark reality that is apparent to most of us. If UPL beats out the other tenders and his play is inadequate then he gets sent down. That's not a rare occurrence for young players.  I don't accept the ingrained concept that so many people are tethered to that a goalie has to play a prescribed number of games before he is ready to play in the NHL. If UPL is the exception to the rule then that is something that should be exalted. If he becomes an example of the rule then he will be demoted to the AHL for further prepping. The notion that he will be irretrievably damaged because of his hard knock experience makes little sense to me. Even if he fails it can be a learning experience for him. 

 

Sure, and what you say is exactly what they are doing.  And it is a poor plan that relies on luck that he is now good enough to make a jump.  In the meantime, the learning  experience by failing methodology continues to be used by a franchise that has no idea about how to develop its players.  How about a learning experience based on succeeding at one level and then taking that to the next one?  
 

The goaltending situation has been a sore spot for me since they let Miller go.  It is the most consistent reason why they can’t compete.  We just traded Risto and Reinhart, acquired more picks, and still have nothing resembling an NHL #1. 
 

No pressure UPL, and enjoy the learning experience.  
 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Pimlach