Goaltending this season and Beyond

[French Collection]

I was curious and did some research on current goalies. This is not related to the Sabres goaltending issues but just random information.

I looked at background information on 75 goalies listed on team rosters. These are the guys that have played the most games for their teams. 75 equals 2.5 per team, I didn’t take every single one that has played. One who I included but hasn’t played is Carey Price.

Average round drafted-4th. Free agent signings were assigned an 8th round value.

28 of 75 are still on the team that drafted them. Lots of movement.

Washington has drafted 5 NHL goalies, Holtby, Grubauer, Vanacek, Varlamov and Samsonov. Decent list.

Chicago has drafted 4, Anderson, Raanta, Lankinen and Hutton. Meh.

Ottawa has drafted 4, Hammond, Elliott, Driedger and Lehner. Meh.

Pittsburgh also has 4, Fleury, Jarry, DeSmith and Murray.

Colorado only has 1, Francouz.

Detroit has 1, Mrazek.

Edmonton 1, Koskinen.

NY Isles 1, Sorrokin.

Toronto 1, Reimer.

Vegas and Seattle have not been around long enough to matter.

Sabres have drafted 3, Ullmark, Peterson and Johansson.

Draft and develop is not a common practice with goalies from what I gather.

Sorry if this was a waste of your time but I thought I would share anyway.

[Drag0nDan]

11 minutes ago, French Collection said:

I was curious and did some research on current goalies. This is not related to the Sabres goaltending issues but just random information.

I looked at background information on 75 goalies listed on team rosters. These are the guys that have played the most games for their teams. 75 equals 2.5 per team, I didn’t take every single one that has played. One who I included but hasn’t played is Carey Price.

Average round drafted-4th. Free agent signings were assigned an 8th round value.

28 of 75 are still on the team that drafted them. Lots of movement.

Washington has drafted 5 NHL goalies, Holtby, Grubauer, Vanacek, Varlamov and Samsonov. Decent list.

Chicago has drafted 4, Anderson, Raanta, Lankinen and Hutton. Meh.

Ottawa has drafted 4, Hammond, Elliott, Driedger and Lehner. Meh.

Pittsburgh also has 4, Fleury, Jarry, DeSmith and Murray.

Colorado only has 1, Francouz.

Detroit has 1, Mrazek.

Edmonton 1, Koskinen.

NY Isles 1, Sorrokin.

Toronto 1, Reimer.

Vegas and Seattle have not been around long enough to matter.

Sabres have drafted 3, Ullmark, Peterson and Johansson.

Draft and develop is not a common practice with goalies from what I gather.

Sorry if this was a waste of your time but I thought I would share anyway.

TB has Vasilevskiy.  NYR have Shesterkin. STL has Husso/Binnington. MIN has Kahkonen. NSH has Saros.  ANH has Gibson.  Vancouver has Demko.  WPG has Hellebuyck.  CBJ has Merzlikins/Korpisalo.  DAL has Oettinger. PHI has Hart. 

Plenty of teams have drafted and developed goalies to play where they're drafted.

[French Collection]

4 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

TB has Vasilevskiy.  NYR have Shesterkin. STL has Husso/Binnington. MIN has Kahkonen. NSH has Saros.  ANH has Gibson.  Vancouver has Demko.  WPG has Hellebuyck.  CBJ has Merzlikins/Korpisalo.  DAL has Oettinger. PHI has Hart. 

Plenty of teams have drafted and developed goalies to play where they're drafted.

Agreed, but I think because of the later development curve of the position, teams move on from them more than other positions. There are only 2 per team so moving on from 1 is a 50% turnover and if both don’t stick.

Most of the guys on your list showed signs of being an NHL starter fairly early on in their careers.

I still find it interesting that Washington has drafted 5 NHLers while Colorado has only 1.

[Flashsabre]

Calgary have Dustin Wolf almost ready behind Markstrom. Vladar might be on the move in the offseason.

I would look at Francouz , Vladar  or Husso if he doesn’t want too much. Someone that can add some stability while the kids develop.

[Drag0nDan]

32 minutes ago, French Collection said:

Agreed, but I think because of the later development curve of the position, teams move on from them more than other positions. There are only 2 per team so moving on from 1 is a 50% turnover and if both don’t stick.

Most of the guys on your list showed signs of being an NHL starter fairly early on in their careers.

I still find it interesting that Washington has drafted 5 NHLers while Colorado has only 1.

Washington drafts a lot of goalies with a lot more draft capital.  A lot of the big contributors for colorado - Rantanen, Mackinnon, Makar, Landeskog were all top 10 guys.  You tend to not go goalie that high in the draft.  They also used a top 10 pick for Varlamov in 2012 who was their starter for like 7 years.  Then It was Grubauer for a 2nd.  Now Kuemper for a 1st.  They brought in Francouz.  

Different strategies for sure, but Colorado is still always willing to use assets for goalies.  They just don't want to bother with the draft when they can trust their pro scouting to make good decisions. 

6 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Calgary have Dustin Wolf almost ready behind Markstrom. Vladar might be on the move in the offseason.

I would look at Francouz , Vladar  or Husso if he doesn’t want too much. Someone that can add some stability while the kids develop.

And I'd be willing to overpay, especially for Francouz.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

I was researching on capfriendly for the goaltenders with one year left on their deal who we may be able to acquire this offseason in a reasonable trade

1) Quick - age 36.  ytd 30 games 2.54 . 913. Cap hit $5.8. Why he might be available.  He lacks a NTC or NMC.  Petersen was just extended for $5 mill starting next year and is their starter long-term.  They already have $58 committed to 12 players (including Quick).  May want to spend their money elsewhere.

2) Varlamov - age 33.  YTD 15 games 2.67 .914. Cap Hit $5.0. Sorokin the starter.  NYI have 67 mill committed to 16 players (including Varlamov).  They need help on D and Dobson a costly RFA to re-sign.  Maybe Varlamov will waive his M-NTC (16 team list) for a chance to start again. 60 games of playoff experience including the NYI run the last two years.

3) Talbot - age 31. YTD 31 games 2.94 .910. Cap Hit 3.667.  Min needs all the cap relief they can get with Parise and Suter costing them 12.743  next year against their cap.    They also need to give Fiala a huge raise. Kahlkonen (also in line for a big raise) is the starter next year. FYI Goligoski is having a huge comeback year with Min and is a UFA this summer. 

Quick is a lifetime King and I doubt they'll trade him, but he'd be a great mentor to our young goalies and would have instead credibility in the lockerroom.  That said I'm pretty sure Varlamov and Talbot will be available.   Sadly, I'm sure teams will try to get Varlamov at the deadline driving up his price.  Still I'd inquire if I was KA as their aren't many teams that can take on his cap hit. The NYI need depth at LHD.  Sounds like a good place to send Bryson?  How about Bryson and a 4th?

That leaves Talbot. Min will have to dump him this summer, but they need him for the playoff chase this season.  What is he worth?  A 3rd in 2023. Would you trade Bryson for him or Asplund?  

Also I'd make an offer sheet to Washington for Vanecek.  Both Vanecek and Samsonov are RFAs and they probably can't afford to keep them both.  Vanecek is 26 and in 24 games has a 2.39 .915.  I'd offer him a three year deal with an average cap hit of 4.2.  Washington would have to match or we only give up a 2nd rd pick.  It would be a steal for us as I doubt Washington would be able to afford to match the deal.  This gives us a 26 year old goalie who has proven he can play in the NHL who is young enough to earn the starting job long-term or become a trade asset if UPL can beat him out. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

If .900 is the Mendoza line for NHL goaltending, this might be of interest:

.871, .893, .842, .926, .906, .857, .818, .886, .909, .882

Individual game save percentages for the Sabres in February. 1 good game, 2 barely acceptable games, 7 bad or worse.

Edited March 1, 2022 by dudacek

[Believer]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If .900 is the Mendoza line for NHL goaltending, this might be of interest:

.871, .893, .842, .926, .906, .857, .818, .886, .909, .882

Individual game save percentages for the Sabres in February. 1 good game, 2 barely acceptable games, 7 bad or worse.

No surprise we lose so often… Adams better have a fix this offseason… 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

If .900 is the Mendoza line for NHL goaltending, this might be of interest:

.871, .893, .842, .926, .906, .857, .818, .886, .909, .882

Individual game save percentages for the Sabres in February. 1 good game, 2 barely acceptable games, 7 bad or worse.

Hard to win with goaltending like that.  No surprise that our record is 2/7/1 during that period.  We have allow 3 or more goals in all 10 games and 4 or more goals in all 8 losses.  

Dear Kevyn,  goaltending matters.  

[Radar]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Hard to win with goaltending like that.  No surprise that our record is 2/7/1 during that period.  We have allow 3 or more goals in all 10 games and 4 or more goals in all 8 losses.  

Dear Kevyn,  goaltending matters.  

This is true. Also defense overall matters. Our goaltending is bad. So is our overall defense. Both need upgrading. At least on defense I see possible upgrading in our system. Goaltending? Don't know but we need to go out and get a #1 type guy until our "pipeline" produces.

[GASabresIUFAN]

56 minutes ago, Radar said:

This is true. Also defense overall matters. Our goaltending is bad. So is our overall defense. Both need upgrading. At least on defense I see possible upgrading in our system. Goaltending? Don't know but we need to go out and get a #1 type guy until our "pipeline" produces.

 

Quote

 

1) Goaltending:  This is our most pressing problem.  When Ullmark was healthy we are competitive.  Without him we aren’t.  However given his injury history, we need more then just him.  UPL showed long term promise until he got hurt and Tokarski is a solid AHL vet. Those two will be a fine AHL tandem next season and showed they can spot start but that’s not enough.  If Ullmark walks we need two goalies.  My thought is re-sign Ullmark 4 year 4.5 per season and then sign one of Bernier, Raanta or Mrazek. 

2.  Young D group needs serious help as well.  I love the future on the backend.  With the 5 kids up and Laaksonen and Johnson coming the future looks secure.  However they are also showing they aren’t ready as a group to carry us without more vets. If we lose Miller to expansion,  McCabe walks and Risto ends up getting trading, KA will need to find at least two solid vet D who play well in the D zone and are also physical players.  This is a tough asks.  Signing McCabe is a priority for me, especially if Risto is traded to supplement the forwards or goaltending. Luke Schenn for depth interests me as does Oleksiak for a top 4 role. 

 

This is what I wrote last off-season.  It was obvious what needed to be done and of course he did none of it.  Ullmark and McCabe walked (rightfully so) and instead of using his cap space to do the necessary upgrades, he gave us Anderson, Dell, Hagg, Butcher and Pysyk.  Continued mismanagement.  No wonder we never win and make no real progress up the standings. 

[Radar]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

This is what I wrote last off-season.  It was obvious what needed to be done and of course he did none of it.  Ullmark and McCabe walked (rightfully so) and instead of using his cap space to do the necessary upgrades, he gave us Anderson, Dell, Hagg, Butcher and Pysyk.  Continued mismanagement.  No wonder we never win and make no real progress up the standings. 

Agree but Ulmark walking? Well we should ha have not waited until FA. But would have not matched Boston's offer either. Doubt he's a #1 guy on a contender.

 

 

 

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, Radar said:

Agree but Ulmark walking? Well we should ha have not waited until FA. But would have not matched Boston's offer either. Doubt he's a #1 guy on a contender.

 

 

 

But he would have been a decent #1 guy this year and next, and a fine backup/trade chip for 2 years after that.

[Radar]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

But he would have been a decent #1 guy this year and next, and a fine backup/trade chip for 2 years after that.

At what be eventually got? We should have signed him earlier if we thought he was the guy. I don't think he's worth what he got once he became a free agent. Not a #1 i  this league or my assessment on him is totally wrong. Our record this year with him would be better but not enough tk significantly change where we are now.

 

 

 

[Broken Ankles]

On 2/28/2022 at 7:54 AM, Drag0nDan said:

 

And I'd be willing to overpay, especially for Francouz.  

From Marty Biron on the Instigators today:

UFA Targets

1.      Anton Forsberg – Ottawa, 29 years old,

2.      Francouz – Colorado, 32 years old, not a ton of miles.

3.      Spencer Martin – Vancouver, 27 years old;  Could be in AHL with Levi or Portillo. 

   Trade targets

1.      Husso, 27 (StL)

2.      SEMYON VARLAMOV, NYI (32)

3.      Raanta (32) injury issues.

4.      Talbot (option from Duffer)

Stay away from Georgiev & Samsonov

[Drag0nDan]

On 3/1/2022 at 9:04 PM, Broken Ankles said:

From Marty Biron on the Instigators today:

UFA Targets

1.      Anton Forsberg – Ottawa, 29 years old,

2.      Francouz – Colorado, 32 years old, not a ton of miles.

3.      Spencer Martin – Vancouver, 27 years old;  Could be in AHL with Levi or Portillo. 

   Trade targets

1.      Husso, 27 (StL)

2.      SEMYON VARLAMOV, NYI (32)

3.      Raanta (32) injury issues.

4.      Talbot (option from Duffer)

Stay away from Georgiev & Samsonov

Francouz would be my #1 - He just seems to have been consistently pretty good across 4 leagues. https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=115982

However... I'm sure other teams who aren't buffalo have noticed this as well so i think his market will be pretty good.

I think Husso is a free agent in 2022, but we'll probably pay him more than anyone else.  I'm a bit reluctant to sign blues backups after hutton though.  Even if Husso has looked really good this year. 

Varlamov is an interesting thought - they almost have to move him to re-tool.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Drag0nDan

[apuszczalowski]

On 2/28/2022 at 10:10 AM, French Collection said:

Agreed, but I think because of the later development curve of the position, teams move on from them more than other positions. There are only 2 per team so moving on from 1 is a 50% turnover and if both don’t stick.

Most of the guys on your list showed signs of being an NHL starter fairly early on in their careers.

I still find it interesting that Washington has drafted 5 NHLers while Colorado has only 1.

It also might have more to do with only needing 2 on the roster so you can't stock pile alot of them so you use them as trade chips. Once you find a good one, you rarely move on from them until they are older. For many teams, it's been years since they had to look at the goaltending market for anything more then a decent affordable backup. A good starter can be in place for a decade + so for a while your less likely to draft one.

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 3/1/2022 at 9:04 PM, Broken Ankles said:

From Marty Biron on the Instigators today:

UFA Targets

1.      Anton Forsberg – Ottawa, 29 years old,

2.      Francouz – Colorado, 32 years old, not a ton of miles.

3.      Spencer Martin – Vancouver, 27 years old;  Could be in AHL with Levi or Portillo. 

   Trade targets

1.      Husso, 27 (StL)

2.      SEMYON VARLAMOV, NYI (32)

3.      Raanta (32) injury issues.

4.      Talbot (option from Duffer)

Stay away from Georgiev & Samsonov

Why stay away from the two Russians.  They ain’t going home this summer.

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why stay away from the two Russians.  They ain’t going home this summer.

They both suck, I’ll take Varlamov though

[thewookie1]

Ideally I’d want a depth chart of

Sabres

Francouz at 2x5.5mil

UPL

Amerks

Levi

Portillo

Cyclones

Houser- as the break glass in emergency goalie

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Ideally I’d want a depth chart of

Sabres

Francouz at 2x5.5mil

UPL

Amerks

Levi

Portillo

Cyclones

Houser- as the break glass in emergency goalie

I would have Subban in Cincinnati.  In his limited action with the Sabres, I could see why he was so highly regarded when he was drafted.  He seems to need a bit of work on his confidence and a bit on his positioning.  Both appear to be correctible because they were better than a couple of years ago.

I still would have preferred Ullmark this year.  I don't know about anyone else, but the team seemed to play with more calm, confidence, and verve when he was in there.  I am not just comparing him to Hutton, Anderson, et al.  Even back when he broke in, the team appeared just flat out better with him in net.

[nfreeman]

I’ll be pretty surprised if they bring in a goalie with more than 2 years on his contract, via either trade or FA.  I think KA doesn’t want to block his 3 prospects.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I’ll be pretty surprised if they bring in a goalie with more than 2 years on his contract, via either trade or FA.  I think KA doesn’t want to block his 3 prospects.  

A goaltender with even a 5 year deal wouldn’t block a single prospect.  First there are two jobs.  If the kid is better he plays. It’s why Varlomov, Quick, Talbot and others are available.   Also we have seen over the last two years how important it is to have at least 2 good goalies at all times.  

Quality goaltending is very thin in todays expanded NHL.  If by some miracle two prospects emerge and force KA to move on from the vet, there is a strong trade market for veteran goaltenders with term. 

Right now the Sabres don’t have any viable goaltenders.  Anderson and Tokarski are UFAs (and aren’t worth retaining). UPL is still struggling at times in the AHL (he gave up 6 goals on 32 shots last night).  He is also an RFA.  Levi and Portillo remain unsigned and in college.  

KA needs to acquire two goaltenders from outside the organization at a minimum.  

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'm going to amend by previous post and add the following.  If a team (such as the NYR or Wash today), have two kids/younger goaltenders, one will be traded to acquire depth elsewhere.  That's how Hasek ended up in Buffalo once Belfour was established as the starter.   Now Wash will choose between Vanacek (winning the battel) and Samsonov and the Rags between Georgiev and Shesterkin (obviously the choice).  

Back in 2003-04 The Sabres had 3 young goalies in the system; Biron 26 (1st rd pick in 1995), Noronen 24 (1st rd pick in 1997) and Miller 23 (5 rd pick in 1999).  Biron was the established starter.  Within 2 years, Miller had taken the starting job, Biron became the backup and then was traded to Philly for a 2007 2nd. Noronen served as Biron backup in 2003/4 and then was traded in 2005/6 to Van for a 2nd in 2006 who became Jhonas Enroth.

I see something happening similarly now.  KA gets a vet for the next year or two.  Signs Levi this off-season and Portillo next off-season.  UPL becomes the Vets backup next season.  Within a year or two, Levi and/or Portillo start pressuring UPL from behind.  

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

A goaltender with even a 5 year deal wouldn’t block a single prospect.  First there are two jobs.  If the kid is better he plays. It’s why Varlomov, Quick, Talbot and others are available.   Also we have seen over the last two years how important it is to have at least 2 good goalies at all times.  

Quality goaltending is very thin in todays expanded NHL.  If by some miracle two prospects emerge and force KA to move on from the vet, there is a strong trade market for veteran goaltenders with term. 

Right now the Sabres don’t have any viable goaltenders.  Anderson and Tokarski are UFAs (and aren’t worth retaining). UPL is still struggling at times in the AHL (he gave up 6 goals on 32 shots last night).  He is also an RFA.  Levi and Portillo remain unsigned and in college.  

KA needs to acquire two goaltenders from outside the organization at a minimum. 

I agree with most of this, although I would not support committing for 5 years to any goalie.  I just think based on KA's track record, it's pretty unlikely that he takes on more than a 2-year commitment for any new goalie.  I also doubt that he brings in more than 1 goalie from outside the organization.  I think he expects UPL to have one of the 2 spots in Buffalo next year and Levi and Portillo to fight it out in Rochester.