Sabres Identity: Hardworking, Relentless with Speed.

[Digger]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I eye rolled this. "Habitual losing" goes with that culture of losing nonsense ppl believe in. You have a culture of losing when you don't have enough talent to win. 

I don't understand your point about "losing nonsense".  When O'Reilly said he lost his love of the game with all of the losses that year he was heavily criticized.  It seems reasonable to me that being on a really bad team is really bad for the overall team's culture (regardless if they are a young player or veteran).

When the team has gone through the 10+ game losing streaks over the last two seasons it seems to me that player confidence dips so low that they don't believe they can score or defend or make a save.  Every little mistake is magnified and confidence is very fragile. 

We had enough talent last year to have been better than 31st.  The losing culture must have played a role.

So I do think that it is key to have players and coaches that can break down the loses and poor plays and find positives for these young players to build on.  One of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread was how wonderful it was for me to see the players taking the extra step to finish a check and work to get the puck back under Granato.  That was missing earlier in the year.  Granato also adapted well with his game plan after a loss and his team came back with a much closer game (win or loss).

[LGR4GM]

44 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I read my original post. Your comment above about adding the right vets is actually in agreement with me on the inadequacies of past GMs.  
 

But you seem to get something out of arguing about trivial things like the habitual losing comment.  Players are leaving here for that very reason, for a chance to break the losing.   Yet you say it’s BS.   
 

Some people here can disagree amicably, without the  eye-roll and bs comments.  If you think I am wrong its ok.  

Sick of hearing this excuse from poster after poster for years on end. The team didn't draft enough talent but you want there to be some magical fairytale reason for us losing. It is simple, you can't win if you have no defense (GMTM) or if you trade away your best defensive center (GMJB) especially when GMDR, GMTM, and GMJB did not draft well enough to replace any of those things. 

Players are leaving because Buffalo is entering a rebuild. Rebuild means they won't be competitive (aka playoffs) for at least 1 year and I would bet 2. That isn't about "habitual losing" it is about knowing a team will be bad for a couple years so looking for better options. 

I don't want to disagree amicably to be honest. I'm fed up with the attitude around and if you want to know what a loser mentality looks like... just look around this board. 

25 minutes ago, Digger said:

I don't understand your point about "losing nonsense".  When O'Reilly said he lost his love of the game with all of the losses that year he was heavily criticized.  It seems reasonable to me that being on a really bad team is really bad for the overall team's culture (regardless if they are a young player or veteran).

When the team has gone through the 10+ game losing streaks over the last two seasons it seems to me that player confidence dips so low that they don't believe they can score or defend or make a save.  Every little mistake is magnified and confidence is very fragile. 

We had enough talent last year to have been better than 31st.  The losing culture must have played a role.

So I do think that it is key to have players and coaches that can break down the loses and poor plays and find positives for these young players to build on.  One of the things I mentioned earlier in this thread was how wonderful it was for me to see the players taking the extra step to finish a check and work to get the puck back under Granato.  That was missing earlier in the year.  Granato also adapted well with his game plan after a loss and his team came back with a much closer game (win or loss).

I will explain one last time. This team loses not because of ROR's comments but because they DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH TALENT. That team ROR was on had a ***** defense and bad goaltending, no wonder they lost. But yes, it is because of ROR losing his love for the game. What a joke. 

[LGR4GM]

We lost last year because Ralph Krueger played a style of hockey from the mid 2000's

It's like any excuse other than the truth is good enough for ppl on here. The team does not have enough talent. Krueger was a garbage coach. It isn't about the locker room attitude and a culture of losing, it is about having bad coaching and not enough talent. 

[LGR4GM]

This all comes down to 1 thing. The majority of this board wants it to be culture and not talent because culture can be fixed with the right coach and veterans. We will magically then overachieve and make the playoffs this year because we fixed the culture... except we'll be relying on basically a rookie center and a reclamation project center. Our goaltender is 40. The defense is going to be led by to 2 21 year old kids. Won't be because of culture, in fact I bet this team stays very positive this season. It will be because for 10 years we drafted like complete trash, I mean the worst in the league. Now, we are 2-3 years away from our improved drafting from making an impact and I think a lot of us know that and are frustrated that we are going to have look to the 2022 Sabres and 2023 Sabres to get back to the playoffs or winning a round. It sucks, I hate it. The reality is though that this team is going to rebuild slowly, so here we are. 

[Digger]

I think it might be an interesting new thread if someone wanted to look at other teams that have successfully completed a rebuild and what worked for them.  Selling off veterans for draft picks, drafting well, making trades, and free agent signings.  The Sabres have been the poster boys for what not to do.  Some teams never seem to have to hit rock bottom and always have some level of success.  Perhaps looking at teams that did it right would provide some inspiration and hope for the future if Adams does a great job.

We all hate Toronto but consider they went into their rebuild after Buffalo first started.  LA seems ready to turn the corner.  Montreal and Boston almost always seem to have success even when they draft poorly.  Chicago remains to be seen if they keep afloat with the roster changes this year but really did hit rock bottom before drafting Kane and Toews and then drafting a DeBrincat is a great find.

Just a thought if someone want to research some great rebuilds.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

This all comes down to 1 thing. The majority of this board wants it to be culture and not talent because culture can be fixed with the right coach and veterans. We will magically then overachieve and make the playoffs this year because we fixed the culture... except we'll be relying on basically a rookie center and a reclamation project center. Our goaltender is 40. The defense is going to be led by to 2 21 year old kids. Won't be because of culture, in fact I bet this team stays very positive this season. It will be because for 10 years we drafted like complete trash, I mean the worst in the league. Now, we are 2-3 years away from our improved drafting from making an impact and I think a lot of us know that and are frustrated that we are going to have look to the 2022 Sabres and 2023 Sabres to get back to the playoffs or winning a round. It sucks, I hate it. The reality is though that this team is going to rebuild slowly, so here we are. 

Of course talent is a big part of it.  Risto, Eichel, Reinhart, O’Reily, Kane, Bogo, Lehner, Skinner, Ullmark, Dahlin and many other players that have come and gone all have talent.   Some have a lot of talent.  The problems with this team have lasted for 10+ years - even with premium draft positions.  The problems are equally related to the constant change and turnover, to poor coaching, and to very poor decisions on how to build.  I already covered this in my first response which included drafting, development, coaching, acquiring the right support players, and an emphasis on goaltending.  I did not use the word culture in that post .  I did say habitual losing.  Which is precisely what had happened over ten years, and some of the losing was by design.  

Maybe Granato is the guy to help end the cycle?  

There is such a thing as a psychology of sport.   Many successful coaches will tell you that talent will get you so far, but it’s not everything.   How does a player, or a team, develop a winning mindset or a losing mindset?   You apparently don’t believe in it but it’s real.  There are coaches and players that unite and lead and make others around them better, and others  that divide.  Good GMs know the difference.   It all matters.  

I get the slow rebuild we face.   I know what Adams is doing.  Adams is very bright and is learning some hard and tough lessons along the way.  I hated the GMTM fast rebuild.  Let’s stop changing coaches and GMs.  Let’s hope Mitts, Dahlin and Cozens can withstand it the next few seasons.  We just lost a whole lot of TALENT, in part because of all the losing and the promise of more losing in the near future. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Pimlach

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

Sure maybe.  Let’s see him try out being a starter in the NCAA first though.

Absolutely.

[Curt]

29 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Absolutely.

And just to be clear, I’m not dismissing Portillo at all.  I think there is at least a 1/3 chance that he is the best of UPL/Portillo/Levi.  Also, I think that between those 3, there is a very good chance that Buffalo ends up with at least one pretty good starter in a few years.

I just wanted to point out that he hasn’t even been an NCAA starter yet, so planning his unimpeded arrival as the Sabres’ #1 goalie is kinda premature.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Curt

[French Collection]

48 minutes ago, Curt said:

And just to be clear, I’m not dismissing Portillo at all.  I think there is at least a 1/3 chance that he is the best of UPL/Portillo/Levi.  Also, I think that between those 3, there is a very good chance that Buffalo ends up with at least one pretty good starter in a few years.

I just wanted to point out that he hasn’t even been an NCAA starter yet, so planning his unimpeded arrival as the Sabres’ #1 goalie is kinda premature.

I agree these are three solid goaltending prospects. Between these three there should be one NHLer. My hope is that we get a 1A & 1B tandem that backs the Sabres for quite a few years.

[Kristian]

On 8/5/2021 at 4:55 PM, Wyldnwoody44 said:

They're filling the pipeline with those players, but that does next to nothing for this season and probably next as well. Typically this is all and good with a rebuild/retool; but the risk of alienating the fan base is very high with this method after a decade of futility. 

Disagree - I’ll take hard working losers over overpaid, whiny losers any day 😂

[klos1963]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I feel like everyone forgets about the best goalie in the Sabres system, because it isn't either of the two you mentioned. 

I eye rolled this. "Habitual losing" goes with that culture of losing nonsense ppl believe in. You have a culture of losing when you don't have enough talent to win. 

One reason I didn't mention Portillo is because I don't really consider him in our system. He's an unsigned draft pick, correct? But from what i have read, he seems to have the highest upside.

6 hours ago, Curt said:

Answer to the question is, we don’t know yet.  I doubt that UPL will be the primary, maybe even secondary, goalie.

Adams made a decision not to invest heavily in goaltending, probably because he doesn’t think the team will be very good anyway.

My point is that we almost are not even really rebuilding if we don't have the proper foundation.

[Cheektorado]

The future is getting bright.

Lombardy in 2022.

Stanley in 2025.

[Curt]

22 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

One reason I didn't mention Portillo is because I don't really consider him in our system. He's an unsigned draft pick, correct? But from what i have read, he seems to have the highest upside.

My point is that we almost are not even really rebuilding if we don't have the proper foundation.

Levi is also an unsigned prospect.  Both would need to play 3 more years in college before becoming FA’s.  Not too worried about it yet.

No prospect (10x for goalies) is a sure thing, but from my perspective, they have 3 good prospects.  So I think that is a decent foundation from a rebuilding perspective, especially considering that they have a strong pool of young D to pair that with.

[dudacek]

34 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

One reason I didn't mention Portillo is because I don't really consider him in our system. He's an unsigned draft pick, correct?

So you only consider signed pick in the system? For example, Power isn't yet in the system?

[klos1963]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So you only consider signed pick in the system? For example, Power isn't yet in the system?

Yeah, since they are not property of the Sabres and I don't believe we have any say in their coaching, training....,  It's a technicality for sure, but until they sign....  , also, save for UPL, these goalies discussed are a few years away, so you really can't count of them for rebuilding. If we're in rebuilding mode when these guys are 22, 23 years old, we'll have a new GM/Coach combo again.

[LGR4GM]

45 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

One reason I didn't mention Portillo is because I don't really consider him in our system. He's an unsigned draft pick, correct? But from what i have read, he seems to have the highest upside.

My point is that we almost are not even really rebuilding if we don't have the proper foundation.

Levi isn't signed either

[klos1963]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Levi isn't signed either

Good point. Cupboard is really bare, isn't it.

[pi2000]

Sure it's commendable they have a type of player, type of game they want to play.

Truth is, it's the same across the entire league.   It's the same style Housley wanted, and frankly I don't expect the results to be any different this time around.

Severely lacking talent, rookie head coach (again), zero goaltending.    You have to be delusional to think this time will be different.

The problems with this franchise are at the top... it all trickles down from there.

They can draft well, but it won't matter when TP pulls to plug on KA and DG in 2 years and hits the reset button again.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, klos1963 said:

Good point. Cupboard is really bare, isn't it.

Umm, I'd probably want 1 more goalie in the system. Upl is 23, Portillo about to be 21 and Levi is 20 so that's about right. I'd 100% be taking a goalie in round 2 or 3 in 2022 if that option is available. 

1 minute ago, pi2000 said:

Sure it's commendable they have a type of player, type of game they want to play.

Truth is, it's the same across the entire league.   It's the same style Housley wanted, and frankly I don't expect the results to be any different this time around.

Severely lacking talent, rookie head coach (again), zero goaltending.    You have to be delusional to think this time will be different.

The problems with this franchise are at the top... it all trickles down from there.

They can draft well, but it won't matter when TP pulls to plug on KA and DG in 2 years and hits the reset button again.

Pretty sure TP got sold on the 3 year rebuild we just entered. 

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

Good point. Cupboard is really bare, isn't it.

Actually, I think NHL teams generally do have influence on the training, and sometimes even usage, of their yet unsigned prospects.  They watch their own prospects, invite them to prospect camps, give them advice on their games, give them training programs to follow, stuff like that.  They invest in their prospects even if not signed yet.

Sabres just need a solid goalie to bridge the gap.  Teams don’t generally have several young goalie prospects signed.  They need somewhere to play.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Sure it's commendable they have a type of player, type of game they want to play.

Truth is, it's the same across the entire league.   It's the same style Housley wanted, and frankly I don't expect the results to be any different this time around.

Severely lacking talent, rookie head coach (again), zero goaltending.    You have to be delusional to think this time will be different.

The problems with this franchise are at the top... it all trickles down from there.

They can draft well, but it won't matter when TP pulls to plug on KA and DG in 2 years and hits the reset button again.

I agree with most of this with the exception of the part about TP.   Maybe this time he stays the course?   I have a good feeling about Granato but it’s based on a small sample size.  

The roster (without Eichel) looks rough.  No legit #1 goalie.  No protection for Cozens and Mitts up the middle.  Not a very stout backline with Risto and McCabe gone.  Looks like we are going rush players that would benefit from more time in Rochester.   But hey, we will be fast and relentless when the opponent is not filling our net with pucks. 
 

[Marvin]

There is no one solution because there is more than one reason for all the losing.

You can blame an overall lack of talent.  We have not had enough talent since the prelude to The Tank.  Unless the Eichel trade produces a few "now" pieces or GMKA makes a couple of trades, the team is unlikely to ice 4 complete NHL lines with 3 pairs of NHL defencive pairs and 2 NHL goaltenders yet again.  Talent matters.

You can blame culture.  Losing has been acceptable because of The Tank.  Because The Tank created an expectation of losing, when an untimely goal against happens, players often sagged and played like, "here we go again."  (GMJB could have broken the cycle by moving picks for players after the 10 game winning streak, but he chose to undermine it instead, which just added insult to injury.)  Culture matters. 

You can blame the GMs and Coaches.  The continual turnover has made the organisation chaotic.  One GM grossly overpaid for talent while the next one undersold talent.  Neither of the last 2 GMs could assemble enough talent to ice a complete, competent NHL line-up and the current one is repeating this mistake.  What talent we had was often ill-fitting, miscast, or did not mesh.  Management matters.

The results of undermining good play during The Tank seasons were extremely pernicious.  Practises became less disciplined.  Lazy bench changes somehow became acceptable.  Sloppy play was routine.  This acceptance of mediocrity has been part of the culture.  Coaching matters. 

IMHO, dismissing any one of these causes will lead you to an incomplete picture of the reason for the drought.  Although the original sin is The Tank and how complete the teardown was, more than enough time has elapsed since then for the team to have pulled itself out of the basement.

[nfreeman]

4 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Sure it's commendable they have a type of player, type of game they want to play.

Truth is, it's the same across the entire league.   It's the same style Housley wanted, and frankly I don't expect the results to be any different this time around.

Severely lacking talent, rookie head coach (again), zero goaltending.    You have to be delusional to think this time will be different.

The problems with this franchise are at the top... it all trickles down from there.

They can draft well, but it won't matter when TP pulls to plug on KA and DG in 2 years and hits the reset button again.

Ugh.  Talk about a depressingly plausible prediction.

[RETURNTOGLORY]

I'm all over this new look team. Bust your ass, play at 100% and good things will come. I played in Europe for two years. We were short on talent BUT everyone of us gave 100% and you saw it night after night on the ice. We were a feared team because of all things, we had team speed! I coined a phrase with Coach Dickerson years ago on his WGR talk show " Speed Kills". He used it from that point forward. Trust me, any of you that played hockey and you have a forward or an entire line coming at you full speed, it's intimidating! I like what the GM is putting together here. And who knows, Jack may be a part of it 😉 .

[Zamboni]

20 minutes ago, RETURNTOGLORY said:

I'm all over this new look team. Bust your ass, play at 100% and good things will come. I played in Europe for two years. We were short on talent BUT everyone of us gave 100% and you saw it night after night on the ice. We were a feared team because of all things, we had team speed! I coined a phrase with Coach Dickerson years ago on his WGR talk show " Speed Kills". He used it from that point forward. Trust me, any of you that played hockey and you have a forward or an entire line coming at you full speed, it's intimidating! I like what the GM is putting together here. And who knows, Jack may be a part of it 😉 .

You had me shaking my head in agreement … until the last sentence.

Jack will absolutely not be a part of the “new” Sabres going forward. That ship has sailed. Bon Voyage Jack.
Jack will however, be a part of putting up 2-3 points every time he goes against the Sabres 😂

I can see that happening…