Rochester Americans 2021-2022

[Porous Five Hole]

26 minutes ago, inkman said:

Only a few tickets left.  Just grabbed a single seat for my boy.  If you want to go.  Get tickets right now. 

Are you referring to game three at BCA or game two in Utica?

[nfreeman]

23 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Let me know when to stop laughing.  Seriously?  When an owner tells you to unload a player to save $8 bonus money, that is the definition of being forced to trade him.  Also there are million of false representations on this board daily.  LOL.    

Help me out, I'm trying to understand.  So in your world every GM ever who drafted in the top 3 doesn't get credit for making that pick.  Wow.

What if that no brainer pick turns out not to be the best player?  Dahlin is arguably not the best player for his draft so far.  I think some would argue Quinn Hughes and Svechnikov are better players, especially before this past season.  Reinhart, while drafted second, is certainly not the 2nd best player in his draft. Pastrnak, Ekblad, Draisaitl, Point and maybe Larkin are all better players. Is Eichel the 2nd best in his year? What about Marner, Aho, Rantanen and maybe Kyle Connor at this point?  You don't give them credit for adding an excellent player to the franchise, but then are you barred from criticizing them if the player turns out not to be the best available?

GMs get credit for making good picks and criticism when they make bad picks regardless of when they were made. That's the way it works.  We don't carve out special exemptions to bolster arguments that so and so was bad as his job or good at his job.  There are very rarely a "no-brainer" draft pick. Drafting 18 year olds is a risky business.  

Again -- this is simply not accurate.  There is a HUGE difference between TP saying to JB, "it's up to you whether to trade ROR, but if you do so, it needs to be before the bonus deadline" and "I am instructing you to trade ROR, and to do it before the bonus deadline." 

I'm glad you're enjoying a good laugh, but it is important not to make stuff up when we discuss things here. 

I also disagree that there are lots of false representations here.  There are plenty of mistakes, to be sure, but most people here are honest.

As for GMs getting credit/criticism for their #1 or #2 OA picks -- I agree that they can be criticized for screwing them up, but I don't think they deserve credit when they turn out well.  You may view this as unfair, but I think if you GM a team into the basement, getting the resultant pick right is the bare minimum, and you don't get credit for achieving the bare minimum.  YMMV, of course.

[inkman]

18 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Are you referring to game three at BCA or game two in Utica?

Sunday in Rochester 

[Taro T]

18 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Again -- this is simply not accurate.  There is a HUGE difference between TP saying to JB, "it's up to you whether to trade ROR, but if you do so, it needs to be before the bonus deadline" and "I am instructing you to trade ROR, and to do it before the bonus deadline." 

I'm glad you're enjoying a good laugh, but it is important not to make stuff up when we discuss things here. 

I also disagree that there are lots of false representations here.  There are plenty of mistakes, to be sure, but most people here are honest.

As for GMs getting credit/criticism for their #1 or #2 OA picks -- I agree that they can be criticized for screwing them up, but I don't think they deserve credit when they turn out well.  You may view this as unfair, but I think if you GM a team into the basement, getting the resultant pick right is the bare minimum, and you don't get credit for achieving the bare minimum.  YMMV, of course.

2 things to add:

1.  Botterill was on record as saying that if he did land Dahlin it would be easier to tear down the team he had.  Considering O'Reilly was out of town before Berglund's agent had a chance to submit his client's NTC, it sure does seem that the idea to trade ROR was J-Botts.  Though the timing of the trade (after the decision was made) was due to accommodating Pegula not paying the bonus.

2.  Aren't we about due to have a certain poster respectfully decry the soiling of this Amerks related thread with non-Amerks discussion?  Oh, probably not, he seems to only do that when he doesn't want to be involved in the thread derail. 😉

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Taro T

[dudacek]

Jason Botterill took over a team that had two shiny new 2nd overall picks, a future Conn Smythe winner, and had just finished with 78 points.

He guided it to seasons of 62, 76 and (prorated) 80 points. He finished 25th, 27th, and 31st. Three full years just to get back to the level of bad he started with.

It's hard to believe anyone defends him.

[JohnC]

43 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Again -- this is simply not accurate.  There is a HUGE difference between TP saying to JB, "it's up to you whether to trade ROR, but if you do so, it needs to be before the bonus deadline" and "I am instructing you to trade ROR, and to do it before the bonus deadline." 

 

I understand the nuance of your argument about the owner telling the GM that if a particular player needed to be moved, it had to be done prior to bonus taking effect. Is it true or not that the owner ordered the player to be traded prior to the bonus kicking in? I simply don't know what the actual inside story was. But given that unknown, if the owner told the GM that if the player was going to be dealt, it needed to be done prior to the bonus taking effect. That requirement was certainly a limiting factor in the return. If the GM was determined to trade ROR, wouldn't it make more sense for the GM to be willing to pay the bonus and get a better return from the team he was dealt to? There were reports that Carolina would have offered more for him but were not willing to pay the bonus. The point I'm making is that the issue of who ordered the trade is not the limiting factor in the return. It is the unwillingness of the dealing team not to pay the bonus for a player who no longer wanted to play in Buffalo. In my mind the onus is on the owner on how this deal materialized because of the financial consideration. And in this case, I understand and am sympathetic to the owner's stance if that is what happened. 

[FLYNNSanity]

When was the last time ROC had a sellout? A decade plus? The last game I recall with great attendance was the 60th anniversary game in 2016 with about 10k. 

[inkman]

Just now, FLYNNSanity said:

When was the last time ROC had a sellout? A decade plus? The last game I recall with great attendance was the 60th anniversary game in 2016 with about 10k. 

It’s probably been 15-20 years. Some lean times.  The Florida affiliation ***** up this team good.  That and terrible management from Buffalo for the other years.  

[Carmel Corn]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Let me know when to stop laughing.  Seriously?  When an owner tells you to unload a player to save $8 bonus money, that is the definition of being forced to trade him.  Also there are million of false representations on this board daily.  LOL.    

Help me out, I'm trying to understand.  So in your world every GM ever who drafted in the top 3 doesn't get credit for making that pick.  Wow.

What if that no brainer pick turns out not to be the best player?  Dahlin is arguably not the best player for his draft so far.  I think some would argue Quinn Hughes and Svechnikov are better players, especially before this past season.  Reinhart, while drafted second, is certainly not the 2nd best player in his draft. Pastrnak, Ekblad, Draisaitl, Point and maybe Larkin are all better players. Is Eichel the 2nd best in his year? What about Marner, Aho, Rantanen and maybe Kyle Connor at this point?  You don't give them credit for adding an excellent player to the franchise, but then are you barred from criticizing them if the player turns out not to be the best available?

GMs get credit for making good picks and criticism when they make bad picks regardless of when they were made. That's the way it works.  We don't carve out special exemptions to bolster arguments that so and so was bad as his job or good at his job.  There are very rarely a "no-brainer" draft pick. Drafting 18 year olds is a risky business.  

I think you're not understanding my earlier point.  When you have the 1OA pick and there is a unanimous first overall "generational" athlete, then I am saying it is a no-brainer to pick that athlete.  JBOT had this situation with Dahlin, and he would have shocked the hockey world if he traded it or picked somebody else.  That's why I do not give him any credit for making a shrewd decision in selecting Dahlin....IMHO every GM in the league would have taken him first as well.  Would you have not been surprised if Edmonton picked Eichel instead of McDavid?

[GASabresIUFAN]

28 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

I think you're not understanding my earlier point.  When you have the 1OA pick and there is a unanimous first overall "generational" athlete, then I am saying it is a no-brainer to pick that athlete.  JBOT had this situation with Dahlin, and he would have shocked the hockey world if he traded it or picked somebody else.  That's why I do not give him any credit for making a shrewd decision in selecting Dahlin....IMHO every GM in the league would have taken him first as well.  Would you have not been surprised if Edmonton picked Eichel instead of McDavid?

Your point, sorry, doesn't make any sense.  Who cares if it wasn't shrewd pick or not.  The GM and his staff still need to pick the right guys.  TM failed in that area.  Jbot was significantly better then TM and it looks like KA and his staff may be better still.  Between Jbot's picks and KA, the team is turning the corner.  How much better might we have been and sooner had TM kept all the 2015 picks and taken Rantenan, Draisaitl and Sergachev over Eichel, Reinhart and Nylander?

Dahlin wasn't a generational talent despite the media proclaiming him as such.  He arguably isn't the best D in his draft class much less the best player.  His career so far is similar to Ekblad's and he isn't the best player in his class either.  While I love Power, he probably won't be the best player for his draft class either.  There are no sure things in hockey drafting 18 year olds.  Injuries, maturity, team environment (we really learned that lesson this past season didn't we) and scouting all play a role in all teams decision even with the first pick.  If there were sure things guys like Patrik Stefan don't get drafted before the Sedins and Eric Johnson doesn't go before Toews, Backstrom and Kessel.  

Ultimately the GM still have to put guys in the right situation to succeed.  Jbot almost destroyed Dahlin (and all the offensively talented players) by hiring RK to be their coach.  However that failure got us Power.  Therefore in your mind does KA not get credit for taking Power because he was the consensus no .1 pick?  Of course not.  KA gets credit because he choose him and thought he was the best player for our team. If (when?) Power succeeds we'll have post after post on this board saying how smart KA was for taking him. 

Now with the right culture in place and seemingly the right coach and management Dahlin and now Power are in an environment to succeed.  

Edited May 12, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Your point, sorry, doesn't make any sense.  Who cares if it wasn't shrewd pick or not.  The GM and his staff still need to pick the right guys.  TM failed in that area.  Jbot was significantly better then TM and it looks like KA and his staff may be better still.  Between Jbot's picks and KA, the team is turning the corner.  How much better might we have been and sooner had TM kept all the 2015 picks and taken Rantenan, Draisaitl and Sergachev over Eichel, Reinhart and Nylander?

Dahlin wasn't a generational talent despite the media proclaiming him as such.  He arguably isn't the best D in his draft class much less the best player.  His career so far is similar to Ekblad's and he isn't the best player in his class either.  While I love Power, he probably won't be the best player for his draft class either.  There are no sure things in hockey drafting 18 year olds.  Injuries, maturity and scouting all play a role in all teams decision even with the first pick.  If there were sure things guys like Patrik Stefan don't get drafted before the Sedins and Eric Johnson doesn't go before Toews, Backstrom and Kessel.  

So what you're saying is the Dahlin selection is another knock against Botterill because he had the best chance to take the best player available and didn't?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

So what you're saying is the Dahlin selection is another knock against Botterill because he had the best chance to take the best player available and didn't?

No what I'm saying is this isn't an exact process and if the GM succeeds in bring in good players from the draft regardless of where taken he gets credit for the pick.  My point with Dahlin, Eichel and Reinhart is to show how it isn't an exact process, but all 3 were excellent picks.  The problem for all three guys is that TM and Jbot failed to put them in the right environment.  Kudos to KA and DG for fixing what the 2 GM's and myriad of coaches before them failed to do.  

 

[Carmel Corn]

45 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No what I'm saying is this isn't an exact process and if the GM succeeds in bring in good players from the draft regardless of where taken he gets credit for the pick.  My point with Dahlin, Eichel and Reinhart is to show how it isn't an exact process, but all 3 were excellent picks.  The problem for all three guys is that TM and Jbot failed to put them in the right environment.  Kudos to KA and DG for fixing what the 2 GM's and myriad of coaches before them failed to do.  

 

You're all over the place.  All I was saying was that JBOT was not a very good judge of talent when it came to the NHL draft.

[woods-racer]

21 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

You're all over the place.  All I was saying was that JBOT was not a very good judge of talent when it came to the NHL draft.

He was slightly above average. If you look at his two draft classes he hit on some nice second round and later picks. Pekar, Johnson and Portillo are progressing quite nicely. Huglen is getting some attention now. 

Bad was Tim Murray. 

Darcy had better odds of hitting on picks without a scouting staff than Tim.

[Ogre]

5 hours ago, inkman said:

Only a few tickets left.  Just grabbed a single seat for my boy.  If you want to go.  Get tickets right now. 

I got free tickets to the second round when I renewed my seats early. Never thought I’d get to actually use them!

The union ticket sellers were all offered a free seat for the game but cautioned to act fast because they were most likely going to sell out. I thought that was pretty classy of them.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

You're all over the place.  All I was saying was that JBOT was not a very good judge of talent when it came to the NHL draft.

That simply isn’t true. 6 of his 18 draftees will be starters for Buffalo next year.  His entire 2019 class had excellent years last season except Rousek who now is healthy and contributing for the Amerks.   Huglen and Cederqvist were two of our most improved prospects.  
 

PS we need to return this thread back to Amerks playoff discussions

[Andrew Amerk]

Why is there a ROR argument going on in an Amerks thread?

Take that stuff somewhere else. 

[Porous Five Hole]

Updated look at tickets available for Sunday. I’m pumped, this should be fun!

[Andrew Amerk]

21 hours ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Updated look at tickets available for Sunday. I’m pumped, this should be fun!

See ya there!

[Flashsabre]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:56 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Your point, sorry, doesn't make any sense.  Who cares if it wasn't shrewd pick or not.  The GM and his staff still need to pick the right guys.  TM failed in that area.  Jbot was significantly better then TM and it looks like KA and his staff may be better still.  Between Jbot's picks and KA, the team is turning the corner.  How much better might we have been and sooner had TM kept all the 2015 picks and taken Rantenan, Draisaitl and Sergachev over Eichel, Reinhart and Nylander?

Dahlin wasn't a generational talent despite the media proclaiming him as such.  He arguably isn't the best D in his draft class much less the best player.  His career so far is similar to Ekblad's and he isn't the best player in his class either.  While I love Power, he probably won't be the best player for his draft class either.  There are no sure things in hockey drafting 18 year olds.  Injuries, maturity, team environment (we really learned that lesson this past season didn't we) and scouting all play a role in all teams decision even with the first pick.  If there were sure things guys like Patrik Stefan don't get drafted before the Sedins and Eric Johnson doesn't go before Toews, Backstrom and Kessel.  

Ultimately the GM still have to put guys in the right situation to succeed.  Jbot almost destroyed Dahlin (and all the offensively talented players) by hiring RK to be their coach.  However that failure got us Power.  Therefore in your mind does KA not get credit for taking Power because he was the consensus no .1 pick?  Of course not.  KA gets credit because he choose him and thought he was the best player for our team. If (when?) Power succeeds we'll have post after post on this board saying how smart KA was for taking him. 

Now with the right culture in place and seemingly the right coach and management Dahlin and now Power are in an environment to succeed.  

This isn’t the thread for this but if you think Hughes is a better dman then Dahlin then I can’t take any of your takes seriously.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Flashsabre said:

This isn’t the thread for this but if you think Hughes is a better dman then Dahlin then I can’t take any of your takes seriously.

Quinn Hughes .81 pts/gp for their careers and he had 68 pts in 76 games this season.  He averaged nearly a pt a game during Vancouver's playoff run a few years ago.  

Rasmus Dahlin .58 pts/gp for his career and he had 53 pts in 80 games this season.

Quinn is certainly the better offensive defenseman.  Also according to the Athletics' defensive analysis, Hughes is marginally better as well.  The Athletic assigns a market value to Hughes of 7.8 million and 5.2 to Dahlin.  Objectively Hughes is the better hockey player.  Sorry, you might not like the "take" but it's not my opinion that I'm illustrating.

 

[French Collection]

My eye test says that Hughes is more of a riverboat gambler and currently gets more points than Dahlin. However, he is kind of wimpy defensively. He reminds me of Housley.

The physicality that Dahlin has added (hits, boxing out, shielding the puck and not taking any s**t) is a huge element of a Dman’s game that I want to see. 
 

Hughes may win a Norris in the near future by out scoring Makar, Fox, Josi and Hedman but I’ll take Dahlin’s game since the all star game, every day.

[sabresparaavida]

40 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Quinn Hughes .81 pts/gp for their careers and he had 68 pts in 76 games this season.  He averaged nearly a pt a game during Vancouver's playoff run a few years ago.  

Rasmus Dahlin .58 pts/gp for his career and he had 53 pts in 80 games this season.

Quinn is certainly the better offensive defenseman.  Also according to the Athletics' defensive analysis, Hughes is marginally better as well.  The Athletic assigns a market value to Hughes of 7.8 million and 5.2 to Dahlin.  Objectively Hughes is the better hockey player.  Sorry, you might not like the "take" but it's not my opinion that I'm illustrating.

 

While I’m not saying that Dahlin is better than Hughes, this argument lost a lot of credibility to me with the market value of Dahlin being set at 5.2 million. Risto got 5.1 at term this season, and isn’t half the player Dahlin is. 

[mjd1001]

25 minutes ago, French Collection said:

My eye test says that Hughes is more of a riverboat gambler and currently gets more points than Dahlin. However, he is kind of wimpy defensively. He reminds me of Housley.

The physicality that Dahlin has added (hits, boxing out, shielding the puck and not taking any s**t) is a huge element of a Dman’s game that I want to see. 
 

Hughes may win a Norris in the near future by out scoring Makar, Fox, Josi and Hedman but I’ll take Dahlin’s game since the all star game, every day.

I too think Dahlin is going to be an overall better D-man. Next year will be key to determine this.  If he takes another step forward next year (even a small one) and has a better team around him (even only slightly better), then his game should start to look a lot better compared to his like-aged D-men around the league.

I never thought of Dahlin as a guy who would be the league leader in goals or points from the back end.  More of a guy who was going to be very good to bordering on great in every single aspect of his game (if he reaches his potential).  Someone with few weaknesses that can control the game from the back end. Lets hope he keeps on developing and gets to that point.

Modern Analytics are a great tool, but remember the interesting thing we heard from Adams recently.  Sometimes analytics will show a player has a weakness or he isn't as good as you want him to be, but Granato in meetings will jump in and explain why that may be the case....it could be that the player was asked to do something different, or put in a position that he may not be going forward in the future but it is part of development at this point in their development.

At this point, if I had to pick Dahlin vs Hughes on my team I'd pick Dahlin.  It'll be interesting to see how he develops going forward.

Edited May 14, 2022 by mjd1001

[GASabresIUFAN]

While Dahlin may ultimately become the better player, my statement has been that it is arguable that Dahlin isn’t the best player from his draft class or even the best D in his draft class.  I think I’ve proven that Hughes is arguably the better player right now whether we as Sabres fans like it or not.