Pegulas New Bills Stadium Proposal a Public and Private Partnership

[LabattBlue]

I’m surprised there have been no leaks of the study that was done 1-2 years ago, in terms on KBC renovations.  Not a peep. 

[That Aud Smell]

I caught a few moments of Ron Raccuia on WGR this morning - talking stadium.

Raccuia is a Buffalo guy who parlayed his sports apparel business into becoming a part of PSE, and apparently a bit of a face and voice for the Pegulas as well. I'll try to relisten to the interview and post a summary here. Of course, if anyone did listen and wants to post the highlights, that'd be great.

[Brawndo]

20 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

I’m surprised there have been no leaks of the study that was done 1-2 years ago, in terms on KBC renovations.  Not a peep. 

Raccuia mentioned this AM, getting the Bills New Stadium figured out is first priority, then KBC will be looked at.

[JohnC]

This is about a 30 min. link. 

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/authors/howard-and-jeremy

[Brawndo]

60-64k stadium, outdoor with partial covering of some of the seats.

 To be built directly across from the existing stadium. 

Total Project time once started 42-48 months 

Downtown Stadium would be 1.9 Billion plus another possible 500-700 Million in infrastructure improvements 

 

[That Aud Smell]

Just now, Brawndo said:

Downtown Stadium would be 1.9 Billion plus another possible 500-700 Million in infrastructure improvements 

Yeah - that definitely doesn't work.

I'm at a point where, while I believe massive stadium subsidies are an inappropriate and wasteful use of public money, they happen routinely and it's probably going to happen here with the Bills.

I mean, $1B or more in public money for this stadium is ridiculous ... but, then again, NYS gave $750M to Elon Musk for a high tech factory that has proven to be a complete and total boondoggle.

Wasteful though it will be, at least the new stadium will provide the community with something it loves.

[thewookie1]

I'm good with 65k seats with a small retractable roof over the field.

Should come in around 1.7 billion

[Brawndo]

49 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I'm good with 65k seats with a small retractable roof over the field.

Should come in around 1.7 billion

He touched on this and mentioned the newer stadiums are becoming smaller.  The Raiders Stadium which will host Superbowls, Final Fours and possibly the BCS Championship only has 65k seats, expandable to 71k. 
 

Also a retractable roof adds to the cost. 
 

I agree it should be a dome though 

[That Aud Smell]

They are clearly not roofing or doming this new stadium. There's the talk of how it will create substantial coverage (from rain/snow?) for some/many of the seats. That's interesting, I guess.

[spndnchz]

I wonder how long and how much dirt/debris from the new place it will take to fill the hole that is Highmark.

[That Aud Smell]

18 minutes ago, spndnchz said:

I wonder how long and how much dirt/debris from the new place it will take to fill the hole that is Highmark.

is that facility likely to create much of a hole? i feel like it's built mostly or entirely at-grade.

[spndnchz]

3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

is that facility likely to create much of a hole? i feel like it's built mostly or entirely at-grade.

🧐 curious. Haven’t seen the elevation plans. 

[That Aud Smell]

4 minutes ago, spndnchz said:

🧐 curious. Haven’t seen the elevation plans. 

we're talking about the existing stadium.

27 minutes ago, spndnchz said:

how much dirt/debris from the new place it will take to fill the hole that is Highmark.

 

[spndnchz]

Just now, That Aud Smell said:

we're talking about the existing stadium.

 

I believe half is below grade on the old Ralph 

[spndnchz]

They’d probably (assuming they’re demoliting the old place. Would start by taking the upper and tossing them on the field. 
Just like the Aud, start at the top and work your way down.

The Aud Had a huge hole for yeeeeeers

 

 

[nfreeman]

8 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

I caught a few moments of Ron Raccuia on WGR this morning - talking stadium.

Raccuia is a Buffalo guy who parlayed his sports apparel business into becoming a part of PSE, and apparently a bit of a face and voice for the Pegulas as well. I'll try to relisten to the interview and post a summary here. Of course, if anyone did listen and wants to post the highlights, that'd be great.

This was a good, long interview and well worth the listen IMHO for anyone interested in the topic.  I thought RR acquitted himself pretty well although there was certainly a fair amount of corporate spin.

I thought Jeremy and Sal did an OK but not great job of questioning him.  They elicited a good amount of info that fans would be interested in, but shied away from tough questions.  For example, they didn’t press RR on why exactly a new stadium is “needed” when he asserted that it was and they didn’t ask for specifics when he asserted that every NFL team has gotten public funding for their stadiums.  

[thewookie1]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

This was a good, long interview and well worth the listen IMHO for anyone interested in the topic.  I thought RR acquitted himself pretty well although there was certainly a fair amount of corporate spin.

I thought Jeremy and Sal did an OK but not great job of questioning him.  They elicited a good amount of info that fans would be interested in, but shied away from tough questions.  For example, they didn’t press RR on why exactly a new stadium is “needed” when he asserted that it was and they didn’t ask for specifics when he asserted that every NFL team has gotten public funding for their stadiums.  

It is needed because the NFL wants it. That alone is reason enough.

[nfreeman]

15 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

It is needed because the NFL wants it. That alone is reason enough.

I'm sure the NFL wants it, but TP is the person who will profit the most from it.  I would've liked to have heard RR discuss that aspect of the project, especially under some cross-examination.  I've also heard, for the first time this year, allusions to structural weaknesses in the upper deck.  I'd like to hear PSE's explanation of how urgent that is, how much it would cost to simply reinforce the existing stadium, etc.

[darksabre]

16 hours ago, nfreeman said:

This was a good, long interview and well worth the listen IMHO for anyone interested in the topic.  I thought RR acquitted himself pretty well although there was certainly a fair amount of corporate spin.

I thought Jeremy and Sal did an OK but not great job of questioning him.  They elicited a good amount of info that fans would be interested in, but shied away from tough questions.  For example, they didn’t press RR on why exactly a new stadium is “needed” when he asserted that it was and they didn’t ask for specifics when he asserted that every NFL team has gotten public funding for their stadiums.  

I mean, I think anyone who has been to the stadium recently could tell you it needs to be replaced. It's almost 50 years old and it was built during an era where building code standards were trying to lighten things up a bit. It's not a brick shithouse like Lambeau. 

[JohnC]

16 hours ago, nfreeman said:

This was a good, long interview and well worth the listen IMHO for anyone interested in the topic.  I thought RR acquitted himself pretty well although there was certainly a fair amount of corporate spin.

I thought Jeremy and Sal did an OK but not great job of questioning him.  They elicited a good amount of info that fans would be interested in, but shied away from tough questions.  For example, they didn’t press RR on why exactly a new stadium is “needed” when he asserted that it was and they didn’t ask for specifics when he asserted that every NFL team has gotten public funding for their stadiums.  

I thought RR answered the question why a new stadium was needed very well. He pointed out that the current life-span of this stadium has been exhausted. He undergirded that point by pointing out the high cost to maintain the current outdated stadium made little sense when that money could be applied to a new facility.  

[nfreeman]

49 minutes ago, darksabre said:

I mean, I think anyone who has been to the stadium recently could tell you it needs to be replaced. It's almost 50 years old and it was built during an era where building code standards were trying to lighten things up a bit. It's not a brick shithouse like Lambeau. 

I go to the stadium once or twice per year (except last year -- another wonderful aspect of 2020).  Certainly it's much smaller and less fancy than the new stadiums, and produces much less revenue, and the bathrooms are disgusting, but that's not the same thing as being structurally unsound.  My point upthread was that if there are in fact structural issues, I'd like to understand those a bit more.

As far as that goes, my understanding is that the stadium being partially underground -- which I think is pretty unique among NFL stadiums -- substantially helps its structural integrity.

 

48 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I thought RR answered the question why a new stadium was needed very well. He pointed out that the current life-span of this stadium has been exhausted. He undergirded that point by pointing out the high cost to maintain the current outdated stadium made little sense when that money could be applied to a new facility.  

"Current life-span has been exhausted" is not a reason -- it's just a repetition of "we need a new stadium" using different words.

As for "high cost to maintain current stadium" -- this is what I would've liked more discussion of.  Why are structural reinforcements needed now?  Have any independent engineers agreed with this assertion?  How much would reinforcements cost and how long would they take, and how would this compare with the cost and time associated with a new stadium?  We didn't get any of that.

[darksabre]

24 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I go to the stadium once or twice per year (except last year -- another wonderful aspect of 2020).  Certainly it's much smaller and less fancy than the new stadiums, and produces much less revenue, and the bathrooms are disgusting, but that's not the same thing as being structurally unsound.  My point upthread was that if there are in fact structural issues, I'd like to understand those a bit more.

As far as that goes, my understanding is that the stadium being partially underground -- which I think is pretty unique among NFL stadiums -- substantially helps its structural integrity.

 

"Current life-span has been exhausted" is not a reason -- it's just a repetition of "we need a new stadium" using different words.

As for "high cost to maintain current stadium" -- this is what I would've liked more discussion of.  Why are structural reinforcements needed now?  Have any independent engineers agreed with this assertion?  How much would reinforcements cost and how long would they take, and how would this compare with the cost and time associated with a new stadium?  We didn't get any of that.

Again, the thing to keep in mind here is when the stadium was built. If you look at other stadiums around the league that were built during the same era, nearly all have been demolished. Foxboro, Giants Stadium, Pontiac Silverdome, San Diego Stadium, Tampa Stadium, I could go on...

It's a building code issue. The way we started building stuff, both commercially and residentially, changed in this country in the late 60s. Lower standards, lots of new materials, lightweight materials, etc. Stadiums built in the late 60s and 70s were not built to last.

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I go to the stadium once or twice per year (except last year -- another wonderful aspect of 2020).  Certainly it's much smaller and less fancy than the new stadiums, and produces much less revenue, and the bathrooms are disgusting, but that's not the same thing as being structurally unsound.  My point upthread was that if there are in fact structural issues, I'd like to understand those a bit more.

As far as that goes, my understanding is that the stadium being partially underground -- which I think is pretty unique among NFL stadiums -- substantially helps its structural integrity.

 

"Current life-span has been exhausted" is not a reason -- it's just a repetition of "we need a new stadium" using different words.

As for "high cost to maintain current stadium" -- this is what I would've liked more discussion of.  Why are structural reinforcements needed now?  Have any independent engineers agreed with this assertion?  How much would reinforcements cost and how long would they take, and how would this compare with the cost and time associated with a new stadium?  We didn't get any of that.

In the discussion RR did give some cost estimates for some rehabbing projects within the stadium. Were these estimates independent engineers or engineers that they hired? I can't say for sure but most likely the costs he gave came from the firm they hired. 

This stadium is nearly half a century old. It has gone through a number of major renovations, some of which the Pegulas have paid for. Systems become outdated. There is a lifespan to the concrete. There comes a point where infrastructure such as plumbing needs to be replaced. 

I thought in the interview in a general sense he made a good case that applying funds to renovate an outdated facility is not as cost effective as applying those funds to a new facility. The issue for me is not whether there is a need for a new facility. For me it is evident. The issue is how much money are the owners going to contribute to building a new facility that will benefit his business? For me it should be very substantial.    

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

The issue is how much money are the owners going to contribute to building a new facility that will benefit his business? For me it should be very substantial.    

For sure.

Of course, the Pegulas went from Terry's infamous quip in February 2011 about "I'll just drill another well" to the internal PSE memorandum that indicated that the Pegulas needed to maintain their lifestyle (i.e., mega-yachts are super expensive).

I expect them to come up with 1/3 - 2/5 of the total budgeted cost.

Edited September 3, 2021 by That Aud Smell

[Stoner]

Is the stadium safe?