Defense in 2022-23 & Beyond

[jsb]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Do people care about that? Well, I don't. Not really.

 

You do realize that for a full season that's a -56 as a 3rd pairing D. Surely we can do better. They have the cash/cap available to add 9M to next years team and get 2 RHD. 6M for a 2nd pairing guy and 3 for a vet that can outplay what they have and be a good PK guy. It should be easily doable.

[nfreeman]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

Curious what people think about the fact that during the 2nd half of the season Henri Jokiharju has been on the ice for as many goals for as he has against, while Rasmus Dahlin has been on for 9 more against.

They generally play together and face the toughest opposition.

Semi-related, do people care that Casey Fitzgerald has been outscored by 15 in just 22 games? Or that Mark Pysyk has been outscored by 10 in 24 - generally in 3rd-pairing usage?

The spread between Joki and Dahlin doesn't seem terribly significant.  I'm inclined to view Joki being even at +/- and Rasmus being not far from even as reasonably positive results given that this was a bottom-5 team with atrocious goaltending for much of the season. 

I will also say that I continue to think Joki is a very good and improving young defenseman, with good speed, good hockey IQ and good skills on both ends of the ice, and while he's not a Brent Seabrook to Dahlin's Duncan Keith, Joki is still a fine partner for Dahlin and a fine top-4 RHD.  If a great RHD becomes available who would be ahead of Joki in the lineup, that's fine, but I don't view a #1 RHD as an urgent roster priority.

I continue to think Pysyk is JAG and would like to see an upgrade in that slot.

As for Fitzie and Bryson (your post didn't mention Bryson but others have upthread) -- I think Bryson has earned a spot in the top 6 next year.  He needs a defensively sound partner with some size, but Bryson adds a lot of value on the offensive end with his skating, playmaking and pushing the play. 

Fitzie, OTOH, is an open question.  His +/- stinks, but it's worth noting that he had a -10 in February, in which the Sabres were 2-8, and he missed 6 games of the Sabres' March resurgence, in which they were 4-1-1.  Overall though he still frequently looks out of his depth in the D zone.  I like his attitude though and would not give up on him -- but I wouldn't pencil him in to the top 7 next year either.

[Pimlach]

We tend to overrate Fitz, Bryson, and Pysyk.  
 

Not sold on any of them.  If we are building a playoff team next year then only Bryson should remain. We need more size and veteran know how to help Power and Samuelsson. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, jsb said:

You do realize that for a full season that's a -56 as a 3rd pairing D. Surely we can do better. They have the cash/cap available to add 9M to next years team and get 2 RHD. 6M for a 2nd pairing guy and 3 for a vet that can outplay what they have and be a good PK guy. It should be easily doable.

Who? and at what price?

[jsb]

6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

 

As for Fitzie and Bryson (your post didn't mention Bryson but others have upthread) -- I think Bryson has earned a spot in the top 6 next year.  He needs a defensively sound partner with some size, but Bryson adds a lot of value on the offensive end with his skating, playmaking and pushing the play. 

Everything you posted is fair but as for the bolded, 3rd pairing guys have to be good on the PK. Bryson is not that guy, depending on the skills of your backend with Dahlin and who we presume to be another #1 D in Power, your 5-6 guys need to be good at that to get TOI. Samuelsson is that, Bryson is not. A vet who understands his role is what's needed IMO.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, jsb said:

Everything you posted is fair but as for the bolded, 3rd pairing guys have to be good on the PK. Bryson is not that guy, depending on the skills of your backend with Dahlin and who we presume to be another #1 D in Power, your 5-6 guys need to be good at that to get TOI. Samuelsson is that, Bryson is not. A vet who understands his role is what's needed IMO.

I'm going to agree with @nfreeman here.  Bryson has earned a job in the top 6 here next season.  He has played well on the right side with Dahlin and Samuelsson and his ability to move back to the left side in case of injury is a great luxury.  I'd also like to see him get a shot at QB'ing the 2nd power play.  

Edited April 5, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[jsb]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm going to agree with @nfreeman here.  Bryson has earned a job in the top 6 here next season.  He has played well on the right side with Dahlin and Samuelsson and his ability to move back to the left side in case of injury is a great luxury.  I'd also like to see him get a shot at QB'ing the 2nd power play.  

IMO you need 2 guys who can specialize on the PK, plus 2 guys that can back them up. Besides Samuelsson who are our PK specialists?? Bryson will never be that guy. He's not good enough to be a 2nd pairing guy either, he's a 7-8 guy. Again IMO you can't have Dahlin and Power wear themselves out doing everything on this team. You need the other guys to fill roles including be a mentor for that young backend that we are going to have sooner than later.

[JohnC]

28 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

The spread between Joki and Dahlin doesn't seem terribly significant.  I'm inclined to view Joki being even at +/- and Rasmus being not far from even as reasonably positive results given that this was a bottom-5 team with atrocious goaltending for much of the season. 

I will also say that I continue to think Joki is a very good and improving young defenseman, with good speed, good hockey IQ and good skills on both ends of the ice, and while he's not a Brent Seabrook to Dahlin's Duncan Keith, Joki is still a fine partner for Dahlin and a fine top-4 RHD.  If a great RHD becomes available who would be ahead of Joki in the lineup, that's fine, but I don't view a #1 RHD as an urgent roster priority.

I continue to think Pysyk is JAG and would like to see an upgrade in that slot.

As for Fitzie and Bryson (your post didn't mention Bryson but others have upthread) -- I think Bryson has earned a spot in the top 6 next year.  He needs a defensively sound partner with some size, but Bryson adds a lot of value on the offensive end with his skating, playmaking and pushing the play. 

Fitzie, OTOH, is an open question.  His +/- stinks, but it's worth noting that he had a -10 in February, in which the Sabres were 2-8, and he missed 6 games of the Sabres' March resurgence, in which they were 4-1-1.  Overall though he still frequently looks out of his depth in the D zone.  I like his attitude though and would not give up on him -- but I wouldn't pencil him in to the top 7 next year either.

Your take on Joki is very well reasoned. As you point out he is a very smart player whose game allows Dahlin to flourish. And you smartly point out that Joki is steadily getting better. For a young player, his instincts are superb. And he knows how to work with a dominant partner. That in itself is not an easy task to handle. He's a quiet player because he is so efficient and is willing to subordinate his game to his pairing partner. He needs to get stronger but I'm confident that he will. The organization has made a lot of bad decisions over the past decade. Trading him for Nylander ended up being a tremendous deal for the Sabres.   

[GASabresIUFAN]

30 minutes ago, jsb said:

IMO you need 2 guys who can specialize on the PK, plus 2 guys that can back them up. Besides Samuelsson who are our PK specialists?? Bryson will never be that guy. He's not good enough to be a 2nd pairing guy either, he's a 7-8 guy. Again IMO you can't have Dahlin and Power wear themselves out doing everything on this team. You need the other guys to fill roles including be a mentor for that young backend that we are going to have sooner than later.

Samuelsson and Jokiharju kill penalties now.  Bryson also chips in, but less so since Samuelsson returned and he got shifted to the right side.  Fitz also kills as does Pysyk and Dahlin.  DG uses a committee approach and doesn't seem afraid to throw any of the guys out there.  (Cbssports.com does a good job of breaking down a players PT on their player game log.) https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/3115256/jacob-bryson/game-log/

The hopefully acquired RHD will likely be thrown into the mix as well.  I don't see Bryson recent lack of PK time precluding him from playing a top 6 role next, especially when DG trusts him to play 19 to 20 minutes a night even without significant PK or PP time over the last few weeks. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, jsb said:

You do realize that for a full season that's a -56 as a 3rd pairing D. Surely we can do better. They have the cash/cap available to add 9M to next years team and get 2 RHD. 6M for a 2nd pairing guy and 3 for a vet that can outplay what they have and be a good PK guy. It should be easily doable.

It should be easy to add 2 decent rhd in ufa to a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 11 years? I doubt that very much. 

[jsb]

3rd pairing D with a little overpayment should be doable as an UFA. The 2nd/1st pairing D is going to have to come in a trade. There are guys on Cap strapped teams that will be available in both categories. The better we look for the rest of the season will most likely determine how likely these are.

[dudacek]

A while back Donnie talked about Dahlin’s partner and basically said it doesn’t matter who it is because he is so well-rounded. Ideally, the player would be tough in order to deter opponents from running Ras, but he looks at it as scenario where Ras is elevating his partner, rather than the other way around, no matter who the partner is.

Im paraphrasing from memory, but the gist was he doesn’t seem too worried about finding Dahlin a new partner, or married to the idea of keeping him with Joki. I think it might have been in the After the Whistle pod with Wilford, but I’m not sure.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I been reading in other threads about the highest and best use of our friend Henri Jokiharju.  He reminds me of McCabe in many ways and I expect him to continue to improve like McCabe did.  However, it’s becoming clear from his advanced stats that he really should be our 3rd pairing RHD now that Dahlin has moved to the right side.  

While he is ok with everyone he plays with, he isn’t great with anyone and Power needs someone that will allow Power to roam some and not get caught out of position.  I don’t think Joki is that guy, yet. I do think in a couple of years he’ll get there just like McCabe did.

So who is Power’s partner next year?  Besides goaltending this has to be KA’s top priority this off-season for both on ice player and for the cap compliance.  

One other thought.  By moving Dahlin to the right side, my guess is that it improved Johnson’s long-term prospects of making the Sabres.  I doubt Ryan is to worried about beating out Bryson.

[LGR4GM]

29 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I been reading in other threads about the highest and best use of our friend Henri Jokiharju.  He reminds me of McCabe in many ways and I expect him to continue to improve like McCabe did.  However, it’s becoming clear from his advanced stats that he really should be our 3rd pairing RHD now that Dahlin has moved to the right side.  

While he is ok with everyone he plays with, he isn’t great with anyone and Power needs someone that will allow Power to roam some and not get caught out of position.  I don’t think Joki is that guy, yet. I do think in a couple of years he’ll get there just like McCabe did.

So who is Power’s partner next year?  Besides goaltending this has to be KA’s top priority this off-season for both on ice player and for the cap compliance.  

One other thought.  By moving Dahlin to the right side, my guess is that it improved Johnson’s long-term prospects of making the Sabres.  I doubt Ryan is to worried about beating out Bryson.

McCabe had a physical side I've never seen in Jokiharju. Samuelsson looks like bigger McCabe 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

McCabe had a physical side I've never seen in Jokiharju. Samuelsson looks like bigger McCabe 

Joki is a better skater.  My comparison was more about role on the team and how they continued to improve.  However, I agree the McCabe was much more physical, but that part of McCabe’s game evolved into a bigger piece of McCabe’s game over time.  I don’t think Joki will become much more then his 3.5 hits per 60 has has been for his career, but at least he isn’t afraid to take be physical.

 

[inkman]

39 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I been reading in other threads about the highest and best use of our friend Henri Jokiharju.  He reminds me of McCabe in many ways and I expect him to continue to improve like McCabe did.  However, it’s becoming clear from his advanced stats that he really should be our 3rd pairing RHD now that Dahlin has moved to the right side.  

While he is ok with everyone he plays with, he isn’t great with anyone and Power needs someone that will allow Power to roam some and not get caught out of position.  I don’t think Joki is that guy, yet. I do think in a couple of years he’ll get there just like McCabe did.

So who is Power’s partner next year?  Besides goaltending this has to be KA’s top priority this off-season for both on ice player and for the cap compliance.  

One other thought.  By moving Dahlin to the right side, my guess is that it improved Johnson’s long-term prospects of making the Sabres.  I doubt Ryan is to worried about beating out Bryson.

I don’t think we can overstate how moving Dahlin to RD has changed the look of the D, dramatically.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 minutes ago, inkman said:

I don’t think we can overstate how moving Dahlin to RD has changed the look of the D, dramatically.  

I remember when he first was drafted we, Sabrespace, talked extensively about his playing his off-side.  Once he settled in as a LHD we seemed to forget that playing on the right was his preferred place to play, much like Vanek playing his off-wing. 

Having him back on the right has significantly altered how are young D are placed.  It, along with the additon of Power, shifted Samuelsson to the top line and bumped Bryson to the bottom pair and changed how we perceive Joki.   

[dudacek]

55 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

McCabe had a physical side I've never seen in Jokiharju. Samuelsson looks like bigger McCabe 

McCabe was one of my favourite Sabres of the dark era, but I can't think of a single skill or physical asset he possesses that matches Mule.

I can't wait to see where Mule will be after he gets 200 games under his belt. McCabe is his floor. His upside is as a top shutdown #3 guy, similar to Ryan McDonough.

44 minutes ago, inkman said:

I don’t think we can overstate how moving Dahlin to RD has changed the look of the D, dramatically.  

Agreed. It feels like the board is still regurgitating old conversations where this hasn't sunk in.

To me in addition to the "balance" issues, it's fixed the "Joki over his head" concerns and the "why would Johnson sign here" concerns entirely.

Couple it with the development of Mule, the potential of Power, the cap space to add a top 4 vet, and my comfort with Bryson as a 6/7 who can play both sides and I am actually feeling optimistic about where we are heading in to next season, assuming Adams gets his Lydman.

Edited April 26, 2022 by dudacek

[sweetlou]

I've said in multiple threads and will say on here as well, KA needs to sign Josh Manson.  Manson played under Marty Wilford in Anaheim so he would have some familiarity there.  Manson Coldplay on the right side next to Power for the next three years and really let Power grow in his overall game.  

I like the Mule- Dahlin pair for the top line.

For me Joker is a solid 3rd pair defenseman who can move up if needed.

Bryson is a 7th defenseman who adds offense to the mix but sometimes struggles in disown end because of his size.

Besides Manson one more vet defenseman is needed.

other possible UFA's - Chariot, Cole, Rutta, Gudbranson, Benning, and de Hann.  

 

 

My pairings for 21-21 would be:

Mule- Dahlin

Power- Manson

???-Joker

 

extra- Bryson

[French Collection]

36 minutes ago, inkman said:

I don’t think we can overstate how moving Dahlin to RD has changed the look of the D, dramatically.  

He did play a lot of RHD in Sweden so his comfort level with it is good. He said he likes it in the offensive end.
If Dahlin stays on the right, he could make that his trademark, not many top Dmen have played their opposite side.

A guy like Ovi playing LW stands out, in my opinion, because that is not very common. Many left handers have played RW though, like Mogilny, Bure, Richard.

[GASabresIUFAN]

41 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

I've said in multiple threads and will say on here as well, KA needs to sign Josh Manson.  Manson played under Marty Wilford in Anaheim so he would have some familiarity there.  Manson Coldplay on the right side next to Power for the next three years and really let Power grow in his overall game.  

I like the Mule- Dahlin pair for the top line.

For me Joker is a solid 3rd pair defenseman who can move up if needed.

Bryson is a 7th defenseman who adds offense to the mix but sometimes struggles in disown end because of his size.

Besides Manson one more vet defenseman is needed.

other possible UFA's - Chariot, Cole, Rutta, Gudbranson, Benning, and de Hann.  

 

 

My pairings for 21-21 would be:

Mule- Dahlin

Power- Manson

???-Joker

 

extra- Bryson

My biggest concern with Manson is that he is -11 on Colorado since being traded there. 

[Taro T]

One thing we're all neglecting wrt the outside top 4 RHD we're all clamoring for is that D rarely are near their peak in their 1st season w/ a new team.  Unless there is something unusual about their situation, such as Jokiharju falling out of favor w/ the new coach in Chicago, they often take a small step back.  But in their 2nd year, they get back to form after settling in w/ their new partner and new coaching philosophy.

So, the guy that comes in might not seem like an improvement over Henri when the rubber hits the ice in October.  But that next year, when the kids are now about to enter their 3rd year in Granato's system and are ready to blossom, that "new guy" should be ready to as well.

And, hopefully Johnson is also in the system that year & if he is would likely be an injury callup in the 2nd 1/2 of that season.

Expect the D to show signs of what it can be next year, as will the F's btw, but that following season is when it will all come together, as it will for the F's btw. 😉

Looking forward to next season.  Am really starting to get excited for '23-'24.  

[PerreaultForever]

Continuity will also help. Last bunch of years we've always had about half a team and the other half filled up with retreads and pick ups and maybes. Next year's team will likely look very similar to what we are seeing now. 

Also, adding a decent goalie would be huge. D will look better as well if we do that. 

[SABRES 0311]

I like Dahlin, Power, Muel and Joker in the top four. I would like a couple vets in the mix for stability and guidance. With no regard to who plays what side:

Dahlin Joker

Power Pysyk

Muel TBD Vet

Bryson and Fitz rotating in as necessary.

[Crusader1969]

10 hours ago, sweetlou said:

I've said in multiple threads and will say on here as well, KA needs to sign Josh Manson.  Manson played under Marty Wilford in Anaheim so he would have some familiarity there.  Manson Coldplay on the right side next to Power for the next three years and really let Power grow in his overall game.  

I like the Mule- Dahlin pair for the top line.

For me Joker is a solid 3rd pair defenseman who can move up if needed.

Bryson is a 7th defenseman who adds offense to the mix but sometimes struggles in disown end because of his size.

Besides Manson one more vet defenseman is needed.

other possible UFA's - Chariot, Cole, Rutta, Gudbranson, Benning, and de Hann.  

 

 

My pairings for 21-21 would be:

Mule- Dahlin

Power- Manson

???-Joker

 

extra- Bryson

Totally on board with this