Defense in 2022-23 & Beyond

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

 

 

I honestly think you guys aren’t watching the same Rasmus Dahlin, I’m watching.

He had a rough stretch in and around the western road trip, but for the bulk of the season, he just continues to make more plays than anyone else in all three zones: more entries and more exits, more breakout passes, more rushes defended, more shot assists, and more shots. His ability to win puck battles in our zone is way up, his defensive zone coverage and his assertiveness have improved, and his turnovers are way down.

He’s turning into a real NHL defenceman.

Sorry, I'm just not seeing that. He is making some confident and aggressive rushes and offensive plays, agreed, but he still gives the puck away, holds onto it too long, doesn't use players around him properly and panics in his own end.

Is he better than he was last year at his worst, yes, I think so. But imo at this stage he's still a good offensive defenseman and a mediocre defender. 

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Sorry, I'm just not seeing that. He is making some confident and aggressive rushes and offensive plays, agreed, but he still gives the puck away, holds onto it too long, doesn't use players around him properly and panics in his own end.

Is he better than he was last year at his worst, yes, I think so. But imo at this stage he's still a good offensive defenseman and a mediocre defender. 

He gives the puck away and hangs on to it too long as much as anyone on the team for sure. That’s because he handles it so often. His ratio of passes made to pucks given away is ridiculously positive. 

Here are the NHL leaders in giveaways this year. Dahlin isn’t on the list, but a lot of good players are.

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/nhl-player-most-giveaways

Who is the better defenceman, the one who carries the puck safely out of the zone 6 times a game, passes it out safely 8 times, turns it over 3 times, and springs 3 guys on partial breakaways, or the guy that rims it around the boards and out 6 times and around the boards and not out 6 times?

He is head and shoulders above any other Sabre in both getting the puck out of our zone, and in doing it in way that creates offence.

 

[PerreaultForever]

12 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He is head and shoulders above any other Sabre in both getting the puck out of our zone, and in doing it in way that creates offence.

 

Ya see now this I agree with. It's a collection of pretty bad to mediocre D men and so yes, compared to them he is a cut above. even with the mistakes. 

[Weave]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

 

I honestly think you guys aren’t watching the same Rasmus Dahlin, I’m watching.

He had a rough stretch in and around the western road trip, but for the bulk of the season, he just continues to make more plays than anyone else in all three zones: more entries and more exits, more breakout passes, more rushes defended, more shot assists, and more shots. His ability to win puck battles in our zone is way up, his defensive zone coverage and his assertiveness have improved, and his turnovers are way down.

He’s turning into a real NHL defenceman.

I thought he looked decent last night.  A little razzle dazzle in the O zone, but most importantly no bone headed gaffes in his defensive game last night.

*based on about 35 minutes of actual watching spread throughout the game.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Weave

[bob_sauve28]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

 

I honestly think you guys aren’t watching the same Rasmus Dahlin, I’m watching.

He had a rough stretch in and around the western road trip, but for the bulk of the season, he just continues to make more plays than anyone else in all three zones: more entries and more exits, more breakout passes, more rushes defended, more shot assists, and more shots. His ability to win puck battles in our zone is way up, his defensive zone coverage and his assertiveness have improved, and his turnovers are way down.

He’s turning into a real NHL defenceman.

Don't disagree with any of that. He's getting better and I'm glad we have him, but Pysyk is as steady a rock back there as we have. Dahlin is obviously far ahead of him in offensive skill and carrying the puck but he is young and his best years are still ahead of him. 

 

I don't want Pysyk leaving at trade deadline or free agency, I think we should try and sign him for a few years at a couple of million a year. 

I also like Bryson. He's another one with his best years ahead of him. 

[Thorner]

10 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

 

I honestly think you guys aren’t watching the same Rasmus Dahlin, I’m watching.

He had a rough stretch in and around the western road trip, but for the bulk of the season, he just continues to make more plays than anyone else in all three zones: more entries and more exits, more breakout passes, more rushes defended, more shot assists, and more shots. His ability to win puck battles in our zone is way up, his defensive zone coverage and his assertiveness have improved, and his turnovers are way down.

He’s turning into a real NHL defenceman.

I'm not sure there's any question "expectation" is proving to be the biggest factor in terms of the perception of, well, almost everything

We are free of the expectation of what a franchise, generational centre should mean for our ability to win games. 

Dahlin can be our best defenceman yet only a footnote in most GDTs because he's expected to be Potvin

[Zamboni]

I think some fans have to get rid of the grasping on for dear life, Kool-Aid drinking term of “ generational talent“. Once you do that… expectations may be more realistic for you. I never buy into or bought into the hockey medias term of “generational talent”. 

Since he was drafted, my expectation for Dahlin has always been to be a near elite #1 or #2 defenseman. Not in year one, not in year two, not in year three, and maybe not even in year four. But between the ages of 24-30 roughly speaking of course. Thank God he’s not a finished product yet… Still in development. at least that’s how I see it.

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, Zamboni said:

I think some fans have to get rid of the grasping on for dear life, Kool-Aid drinking term of “ generational talent“. Once you do that… expectations may be more realistic for you. I never buy into or bought into the hockey medias term of “generational talent”. 

Since he was drafted, my expectation for Dahlin has always been to be a near elite #1 or #2 defenseman. Not in year one, not in year two, not in year three, and maybe not even in year four. But between the ages of 24-30 roughly speaking of course. Thank God he’s not a finished product yet… Still in development. at least that’s how I see it.

IMHO, it is more realistic to wish for great ensemble play in the defence rather than hoping for a couple of great players to suck up 25 minutes a night.

As an aside, I saw a lot of Niklas Lidstrom's youth when I was at Michigan State.  He was a mediocre defencive defencemen for his first few years, particularly when he was paired with Paul Coffey.

[GASabresIUFAN]

45 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

IMHO, it is more realistic to wish for great ensemble play in the defence rather than hoping for a couple of great players to suck up 25 minutes a night.

As an aside, I saw a lot of Niklas Lidstrom's youth when I was at Michigan State.  He was a mediocre defencive defencemen for his first few years, particularly when he was paired with Paul Coffey.

I’m really not worried about Dahlin.  Once he gets a consistent D first partner, I think he’ll fully blossom. I also thought he played a very good game last night.  Despite the score, I actually liked the pairings.

 Dahlin/Pysyk, Bryson/Jokiharju, Miller/Hagg.  At least DG was pairing O first players with more D conscious partners.  

[Taro T]

6 hours ago, Weave said:

I thought he looked decent last night.  A little razzle dazzle in the O zone, but most importantly no bone headed gaffes in his defensive game last night.

*based on about 35 minutes of actual watching spread throughout the game.

 

6th game being in the crowd, and IMHO, of those, this was his best game.

He had a confidence with the puck on his stick and seemed to do a good job of choosing when to dipsy doodle and also when to make the pass or try the shot.

He played fairly physically and really only seemed to be out of place in his own end 1 time.  Right after Domi made Cozens look silly, he seemed flat footed as the puck went to Roslovic and decided to try to avoid screening Tokarski when the better play was probably risking the screen to keep from letting him walk in for a clean shot from the slot.

Surprisingly only noticed him on the right side once at 5v5 which was down significantly from the 1/4 - 1/3 of the time the past 2 or 3 games.

 

Also, for a 1st game back was very pleased w/ Jokiharju's game.  Didn't seem to have much rust & actually had a bit of a snarl.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’m really not worried about Dahlin.  Once he gets a consistent D first partner, I think he’ll fully blossom. 

Don't you think this is more of an IF rather than a ONCE? 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, PerreaultForever said:

Don't you think this is more of an IF rather than a ONCE? 

No, his O game is there, and his D game is coming along.  He really just needs a partner he can get in sink with.  Now that Jokiharju is back, I think DG will pair them back together and that should help Dahlin.  I would like him to be more physical in our zone.  

[nfreeman]

I, too, liked Joker's game last night.

[Taro T]

18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No, his O game is there, and his D game is coming along.  He really just needs a partner he can get in sink with.  Now that Jokiharju is back, I think DG will pair them back together and that should help Dahlin.  I would like him to be more physical in our zone.  

For the love of all that is good & Holy, Mr. Granato, please do not put Dahlin & Jokiharju back together as a regular pairing.  They are in many ways similar players but with opposite handedness & Ras is far better at the offensive side of the game than Joki is.  Because their sets of strengths & particularly their weaknesses are similar, those weaknesses get amplified when they're paired up.

[PerreaultForever]

40 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No, his O game is there, and his D game is coming along.  He really just needs a partner he can get in sink with.  Now that Jokiharju is back, I think DG will pair them back together and that should help Dahlin.  I would like him to be more physical in our zone.  

You misunderstood me. My IF was directed towards who this "consistent D first partner" will be. I personally don't think that's Jokiharju and am not sure who that partner might be. 

[LabattBlue]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You misunderstood me. My IF was directed towards who this "consistent D first partner" will be. I personally don't think that's Jokiharju and am not sure who that partner might be. 

I don't think Joker is the long term answer as a partner for Dahlin.  In the off-season, I'd like to see KA bring in an experienced vet to fill that role.

[GASabresIUFAN]

He had Pysyk paired with him yesterday and I thought Dahlin had a pretty good game.  

Edited November 23, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

At one point in the game Ray was singing the praises of Werenski and saying how maybe one day Dahlin might be able to do the same things.

And I thought 'tonight, Dahlin is doing more than Werenski'

The Risto argument was always how his analytics were always hurt by getting #1 usage on a bad team. Dahlin is the #1 D on a bad team and still has a positive Corsi.

In the 8 games since the road trip, matched up against 6 of the top 8 teams in the East, and the two best in the Pacific, he's led the Sabres in ice time, while putting up 7 points and emerged a +1. Statistically, what more do you want from him?

Edited November 24, 2021 by dudacek

[thewookie1]

Dahlin’s strangest attribute is how he’s like a chameleon defensively. Put him with a good positional dman, he suddenly becomes better at positional defensive play. Put him with a physical guy and his physicality increases; put him with a train wreck like Butcher and his defensive game goes belly up. I really have no clue how to figure that out lol

[Curt]

Dahlin will be fine.  He has been good this season.  He isn’t great in his own end, but he is getting better, though he has ups and downs.  He is going to be a top pair caliber player.

[Taro T]

48 minutes ago, dudacek said:

At one point in the game Ray was singing the praises of Werenski and saying how maybe one day Dahlin might be able to do the same things.

And I thought 'tonight, Dahlin is doing more than Werenski'

The Risto argument was always how his numbers were always hurt being getting #1 usage on a bad team. Dahlin is the #1 D on a bad team and still has a positive Corsi.

In the 8 games since the road trip, matched up against 6 of the top 8 teams in the East, and the two best in the Pacific, he's led the Sabres in ice time, while putting up 7 points and emerged a +1. Statistically, what more do you want from him?

That was a large part of it.  His being on the ice along w/ Eichel and their being a train wreck when on the ice at the same time through much of Eichel's tenure when the other team was cycling was another major component.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He had Pysyk paired with him yesterday and I thought Dahlin had a pretty good game.  

I agree. At this point Pysyk is the best option and as I mentioned somewhere a while back I'd be okay with signing Pysyk rather than dumping him deadline or letting him walk. Nothing extravagant, but of all the retreads out there he's the only one I'd keep. If some kids knock him down to #7 all the better. 

[inkman]

19 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No, his O game is there, and his D game is coming along.  He really just needs a partner he can get in sink with.  Now that Jokiharju is back, I think DG will pair them back together and that should help Dahlin.  I would like him to be more physical in our zone.  

 

In sink

[GASabresIUFAN]

32 minutes ago, inkman said:

 

In sink

Love the video.  We have 3 cats

[bob_sauve28]

Pysyk doesn’t look like a journeyman defenseman. He looks like a solid part of a core unit that is getting pretty good.