Defense in 2022-23 & Beyond

[bob_sauve28]

Just a thought, but we have FOUR good defenseman that could and should still play this year who probably will be full time NHL defenseman 

If we are still in the playoff race (or get to the playoffs) we should see Power and Johnson after their college season ends, throw in Joki and Samuelsonson and we really have some depth back there. 

 

Butcher is sort of fine in a holding spot, but against a good team his turn overs are not going to be pretty. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

We kind of got off track a little in the college hockey thread and started discussing the future flow of D to the Sabres from college, Rochester and elsewhere.  

I thought we should probably bring that discussion here; so here goes.

KA has pretty much a clean slate to work with after this season.  Hagg (L), Pysyk (R), Miller (R), Wolanin (L) and Butcher (L) are all UFAs. Bryson (23, LHD) is an RFA who shouldn't cost much to retain.  Only Jokiharu (22, RHD) and Dahlin (21, LHD) are signed beyond this season.

In Rochester are (all are RFAs after 22/23)

1) Samuelsson (21, LHD) - He looks NHL ready now and was solid in his NHL debut last season

2) Laaksonen (22, RHD) - 7  pts in 11 games so far.  AHL All-star last year.  Miller's replacement?

3) Fitzgerald (24, RHD) - 6 pts (3 goals) in 11 games and Amerks +/- leader at +6.

In College

4) Power - (18, LHD) - 1st overall in 2021 draft. 18 pts in 12 college games ytd.  Had 16 in 26 games last season.  Already 6'6" 215.

5) Johnson - (20, LHD) - 31st overall in 2019 (ROR trade).  7 pts in 12 games ytd.  Solid at 2021 World U-20 for USA. Has improved each season in college.

Others

6) Novikov - (18, LHD) - 188th pick in 2021 is already 6'3" 200 and taking a regular shift in the KHL.  He will represent Russia in the World Jrs.  

7-9) Cronholm (L), Kukkonen (R) and Worge-Kreu (L) - 2018 picks are all skating in the SHL or SM-Liiga.  All seem like stay at home type players.  Don't know if KA has an interest in bringing them over or not.  

I'm going to assume that Wolanin, Butcher and Miller are gone by season's end at the latest.  I'm also going to assume Samuelsson gets the call soon if the Sabres suffer another D injury or Miller gets traded whichever comes first.  

KA will sign both Johnson and Power at the end of their college seasons.  KA also will re-sign Bryson to a two year deal.  This will give KA the flexibility to keep Bryson long-term if he continues to improve, but also a solid trade asset if gets beaten out by guys like Laaksonen, Power and Johnson.

KA base group for next year probably looks something like this: Dahlin/Jokiharju, Bryson/Samuelsson, Power/??????

Based on what I have seen, there is a chance that both Pysyk and Hagg could be retained for veteran presence.  Pysyk as a solid stay at home partner for Power's first NHL campaign is not the worst place to start.  Hagg as a 7th D in appealing but he might find greener pastures elsewhere.   

Edited November 15, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[GASabresIUFAN]

One other thought.  Would this be a golden opportunity for KA to reach into the FA market or trade market to acquire a better then Pysyk RHD to be either Power or Dahlin's partner?  We certainly have the cap space.

[Flashsabre]

22 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

One other thought.  Would this be a golden opportunity for KA to reach into the FA market or trade market to acquire a better then Pysyk RHD to be either Power or Dahlin's partner?  We certainly have the cap space.

First I would like to see:

Samuelsson-Dahlin

Power-Joker

[Doohicksie]

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Hagg as a 7th D in appealing but he might find greener pastures elsewhere.   

I'm good either way.  He is the JAGiest of the JAG D-men.  Decent player, easily replaceable.

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

One other thought.  Would this be a golden opportunity for KA to reach into the FA market or trade market to acquire a better then Pysyk RHD to be either Power or Dahlin's partner?  We certainly have the cap space.

Who exactly are you referring to? Tanev is the only defensive Dman I can think of who hasn't become a dud in the last couple years. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Who exactly are you referring to? Tanev is the only defensive Dman I can think of who hasn't become a dud in the last couple years. 

The broader question is who might be available in trade or as a FA that fits the bill of a veteran and effective stay at home RHD?  I have no idea at this point, but people tend to become available when cap room is needed.  Maybe TB needs to trade Cernak.  Maybe we can’t upgrade Pysyk, but maybe he plays well enough in the next 68 games to make it unnecessary.

[Brawndo]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:37 PM, dudacek said:

I think the Sabres basket of U23 talent is generally underrated, although I do see they’ve cracked the top 8 at minimum in Pronman’s annual ranking this year.

In the fall of 2013 the Sabres had in their U23 system (players from the previous 6 drafts):

• 1 top 10 pick (Ristolainen)
• 5 other 1st-rounders (Zadorov, Girgensons, Grigorenko, Armia, Pysyk)
• 5 2nd-rounders (Compher, Hurley, Bailey, McCabe, Larsson)

Right now they have:

• 2 1st overall picks (Dahlin, Power)
• 3 other top 10 picks (Quinn, Cozens, Mittelstadt)
• 4 other 1st rounders (Rosen, Johnson, Jokiharju, Thompson)
• 6 2nd rounders (Poltapov, Kisakov, Peterka, Samuelsson, Lukkonnen, Asplund)

I think they are clearly both deeper and stronger at the high end right now than they were then.

This underscores Liger’s Point of needing to draft better. 
 

Out of those original guys, 8 are NHL Regulars but all are in Bottom 6 or 3-6 defenseman

[Marvin]

50 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

This underscores Liger’s Point of needing to draft better. 
 

Out of those original guys, 8 are NHL Regulars but all are in Bottom 6 or 3-6 defenseman

And develop better.  Maybe some of those guys would have been better had they not been rushed to the NHL.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

This underscores Liger’s Point of needing to draft better. 
 

Out of those original guys, 8 are NHL Regulars but all are in Bottom 6 or 3-6 defenseman

Yup. Doesn't matter they drafted 8 guys who are nhl regulars when most of those 8 are replacement level. We have to draft better or none of it matters. 

[PerreaultForever]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:51 AM, Flashsabre said:

First I would like to see:

Samuelsson-Dahlin

Power-Joker

I'd like to put in a vote for Power Bryson. I'm starting to love the way he plays and think he could be an unexpected piece of the puzzle. 

Of the veteran Jags I'm ditching Hagg, Butcher and Miller but maybe keeping Pysyk for a few more years. RHD, nothing special, but a little tougher and a little more reliable and consistent. 

Now for the big one, I'd consider trading Dahlin. I'm starting to convince myself that he is indeed thick as a post and since he hasn't had good D ingrained into him so it's instinctive, whenever the game picks up tempo and he has to react and think he gets confused, hesitates and makes big mistakes. He's fine when we have the puck and when he controls the rush, good even, but in his own end under pressure he's like a deer in the headlights. Not sure this is fixable so I'd entertain the idea of ditching him if a good trade was out there. 

If not, I'm hoping with Power and Samuelson and maybe somebody else we can decrease his late game minutes and minutes in general. 

joker I just don't know. Wait and see what he brings when he returns. He could imo go either way. 

What this roster really still needs is a new Bill Hajt, Jay McKee or Mike Ramsey. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

As to the question of drafting better.  Our team for next season potentially could include at least 12 and maybe more of our draftees or internal prospects.

At center - We'll have draftees Mitts, and Cozens

On the Wing - We'll likely have draftees (or UDFAs) Olofsson, Girgensons, JJP, Quinn, Asplund, and Routsalainen

On defense we'll have draftees Power, Dahlin, Bryson and Samuelsson (and in theory Pysyk if retained)

That's 12 (13 w Pysyk) internal prospects, plus acquired prospects Thompson, Jokiharju and Krebs

The breakdown:

GMDR (1 or 2) - Girgensons (& Pysyk)

GMTM (2) - Olofsson and Asplund

GMJB (6) - Mitts, Cozens, Dahlin, Samuelsson, Bryson and Routsalainen

GMKA (3) - Power, JJP & Quinn

Seems like we have seen an uptick in drafting since JB took over.  KA has also done a quality job so far.

[Taro T]

Anybody know when "video scouting" officially was put to rest?

[thewookie1]

One guy I thought of is Kris Letang who's a UFA. While not a Defensive Dman he's a seasoned vet with 3 Cup rings and was arguably the 1D in all of those runs. We'd certainly be able to pay him for a 2 year contract and he could be a mentor for a group of multiple young dmen.

Samuelsson - Dahlin

Power - Letang

Bryson - Jokiharju

Pysyk

 

That would give us quite a deep D corps, especially with the number of guys in Rochester still such as Laaks, Fitzgerald, and a newly signed Ryan Johnson

 

[Kr632]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

 

Now for the big one, I'd consider trading Dahlin. I'm starting to convince myself that he is indeed thick as a post and since he hasn't had good D ingrained into him so it's instinctive, whenever the game picks up tempo and he has to react and think he gets confused, hesitates and makes big mistakes. He's fine when we have the puck and when he controls the rush, good even, but in his own end under pressure he's like a deer in the headlights. Not sure this is fixable so I'd entertain the idea of ditching him if a good trade was out there. 

Been hearing more and more people bring up a Dahlin trade this week. I want to continue to try and develop him as defenseman take time but I would definitely be curious what a potential return would look like. 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, Kr632 said:

Been hearing more and more people bring up a Dahlin trade this week. I want to continue to try and develop him as defenseman take time but I would definitely be curious what a potential return would look like. 

To be clear, I'm in no hurry to trade him away. I think the deconstructing already done is enough. If I was KA I'd see what we could get for him and if there was a big offer out there I'd seriously consider it but I wouldn't ditch him.

I'd much rather build a team where we can reduce his role. I think that'd be the best option. Drop that idea of him as the dominant D man, the Hedman or Lidstrom or whoever and say this is our offensive guy we use on the PP and play more when we're behind and need to gamble, and we keep him off the ice more  in the 3rd when we're protecting the lead. But for that we need to add that complete player or some additional solid D men. Hopefully Power and Samuelson help get us there (among others).

Would I prefer he was a complete player? Sure. But I don't see that happening right now unless he makes big changes. 

[nfreeman]

FFS.

Dahlin is 21 and in his 4th season.  His 1st 3 seasons were played for poor coaches and with a highly unstable organization, all during a very strange and tumultuous pandemic.  He has nevertheless produced historic scoring numbers for a young defenseman and displayed offensive puck skills and instincts shared by only a few defensemen in NHL history.

Does he get confused and beaten in the D-zone from time to time?  Yes, indeed.

Is he anywhere near the type of game-changing force we were expecting when he was drafted and the hockey intelligentsia was throwing around names like Orr and Potvin?  NFW.  (And this is yet more evidence that tanking is a stupid and low-percentage strategy, btw.)

But still.  Trading him for anything less than the next Eichel-type-unhappy-superstar-demanding-a-trade (sans the potentially career-killing injury) would be insane IMHO.

Donnie Meatballs is going to coach him up and by the middle of next season he's going to start delivering on that promise.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Would I prefer he was a complete player? Sure. But I don't see that happening right now unless he makes big changes. 

21 year old defensemen generally do make big changes.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

21 year old defensemen generally do make big changes.

Oh I agree fully, they can, they should, but I also see some things in Dahlin's game that just seem the same. As I've said, I truly believe he might be a slow thinker and thus he needs more coaching and less pressure situations for his development. He needs to learn to react more instinctively (the right way) . We rushed him without assessing his limitations properly. 

Obviously that was partly because our D was so crap he was still a better option than what we had, but ultimately it was bad for his development and I expect him to take longer than average to be great or he might always have big flaws.  

[bob_sauve28]

Pysyk is our best defenseman. Is there any question about that? 

[GASabresIUFAN]

16 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Pysyk is our best defenseman. Is there any question about that? 

Honestly I think Bryson has been our most consistent D this season and he has had to cover for Miller

[Crusader1969]

Do both Miller and Hagg get traded? Opening the door for Power and Samuelsson later this season

would leave a very very Young D corps 

 

[Sabel79]

2 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Do both Miller and Hagg get traded? Opening the door for Power and Samuelsson later this season

would leave a very very Young D corps 

 

Traded, waived, whatever gets them gone.  

[triumph_communes]

On 11/17/2021 at 8:06 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I'd like to put in a vote for Power Bryson. I'm starting to love the way he plays and think he could be an unexpected piece of the puzzle. 

Of the veteran Jags I'm ditching Hagg, Butcher and Miller but maybe keeping Pysyk for a few more years. RHD, nothing special, but a little tougher and a little more reliable and consistent. 

Now for the big one, I'd consider trading Dahlin. I'm starting to convince myself that he is indeed thick as a post and since he hasn't had good D ingrained into him so it's instinctive, whenever the game picks up tempo and he has to react and think he gets confused, hesitates and makes big mistakes. He's fine when we have the puck and when he controls the rush, good even, but in his own end under pressure he's like a deer in the headlights. Not sure this is fixable so I'd entertain the idea of ditching him if a good trade was out there. 

If not, I'm hoping with Power and Samuelson and maybe somebody else we can decrease his late game minutes and minutes in general. 

joker I just don't know. Wait and see what he brings when he returns. He could imo go either way. 

What this roster really still needs is a new Bill Hajt, Jay McKee or Mike Ramsey. 

Bryson sucks yo

[dudacek]

On 11/18/2021 at 2:17 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Oh I agree fully, they can, they should, but I also see some things in Dahlin's game that just seem the same. As I've said, I truly believe he might be a slow thinker and thus he needs more coaching and less pressure situations for his development. He needs to learn to react more instinctively (the right way) . We rushed him without assessing his limitations properly. 

Obviously that was partly because our D was so crap he was still a better option than what we had, but ultimately it was bad for his development and I expect him to take longer than average to be great or he might always have big flaws.  

 

3 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Pysyk is our best defenseman. Is there any question about that? 

 

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Honestly I think Bryson has been our most consistent D this season and he has had to cover for Miller

I honestly think you guys aren’t watching the same Rasmus Dahlin, I’m watching.

He had a rough stretch in and around the western road trip, but for the bulk of the season, he just continues to make more plays than anyone else in all three zones: more entries and more exits, more breakout passes, more rushes defended, more shot assists, and more shots. His ability to win puck battles in our zone is way up, his defensive zone coverage and his assertiveness have improved, and his turnovers are way down.

He’s turning into a real NHL defenceman.