Defense in 2022-23 & Beyond

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

If DG goes with the vets over the kids, KA's acquisitions would have blocked two kids and give us a starting 6 of

Dahlin Jokiharju

Hagg Miller

Butcher Pysyk

That's hard to look at. 

True but if Samuelsson gets beat out by Hagg for a LHD spot I see no reason he can't still find his way into the lineup by winning the goaltender competition, considering the competitors on that front 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

True but if Samuelsson gets beat out by Hagg for a LHD spot I see no reason he can't still find his way into the lineup by winning the goaltender competition, considering the competitors on that front 

Hagg in goal? He can't be worse then Dell.  I also like Samuelsson in the lineup over Hagg.  Frankly, I'm ok with Hagg and Samuelsson in over Butcher.  I won't mind 2 physical guys in the lineup each night.

Edited September 1, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[bob_sauve28]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Hagg in goal? He can't be worse then Dell.  I also like Samuelsson in the lineup over Hagg.  Frankly, I'm ok with Hagg and Samuelsson in over Butcher.  I won't mind 2 physical guys in the lineup each night.

Nice to at least have so options 

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Hagg in goal? He can't be worse then Dell.  I also like Samuelsson in the lineup over Hagg.  Frankly, I'm ok with Hagg and Samuelsson in over Butcher.  I won't mind 2 physical guys in the lineup each night.

Ya, I'd be ok with that. I can't see myself humming and hawing too much over the pairs this season considering what they are being set up to do (and the support (or lack thereof) they'll have around them). We have our Dahlin, Jokiharju and Miller and then the other 3 spots to me are more less interchangeable between Hagg, Samuelsson, Butcher, Bryson, and Pysyk, which actually seems a reasonably balanced group in skill set, if not impressive in outright aptitude. Though, like I said I think the vet Pysyk presence minds the right side due to his handedness advantage. 

The leaves 2 offensive Dmen in the lineup (Dahlin, Miller) two more defensively oriented players (Jokiharju, Pysyk) with the other 2 spots filled situationally between the 4 remaining lefties. I'm not sure Bryson is ready anyways. If it's down to 3, it's hardly worth worrying about as there will be an injury at almost every point. 

[dudacek]

Don't remember this being posted/discussed:

“When it happened and I found out it was Buffalo, I was super excited,” Butcher, who is entering the final year of his contract, told The Buffalo News during a recent phone interview. “Before coming to New Jersey and I was leaving college as a free agent, I couldn’t speak enough about the Pegulas and everything they have going there, the effort and first-class organization that they’re running. It’s pretty special to be traded to such a place that values hockey, especially the fans. That’s why I was very excited when I found out it was the Sabres.”

“A lot of familiarity, a lot of respect for him,” Butcher said of Granato. “I was really excited when he got the job and that I’m getting the chance to play for him again.  … He loves smart hockey players. He loves playing fast, having the puck and being on the attack. Those are all strengths of my game. That’s why I think that when he was my coach we jelled well together because I think we see the game very similarly.”

“It’s huge motivation for me because I know I belong in this league,” said Butcher. “I know I can play valuable minutes every night. It’s huge motivation for me to prove people wrong about myself and get back out there and have a bounce-back year and just establish myself again. … I’m excited, I’m really motivated and ready to get to Buffalo to get started soon and get after it.”

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/new-sabres-defenseman-will-butcher-motivated-to-prove-people-wrong-this-season/article_e5f49446-04da-11ec-93f3-d3bee9312db0.html

Sounds like Lindy Ruff wasn't a fan, and Butcher lost his job/role to rookie Ty Smith. He was a healthy scratch for the first nine games of the season, and he sat for 18 consecutive games from March 7 through April 11.

What are the expectations for this guy?

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Butcher needs a coach who knows how to utilize his offense and protect him on defense.  

[Thorner]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Butcher needs a coach who knows how to utilize his offense and protect him on defense.  

I'm not sure the Sabres as currently constructed have the means of "protecting" anyone. Their answer to that problem before was to overplay Risto, torpedoing his metrics in the process by giving him all the tough minutes - and he's now gone. More likely I see Adams rolling all 3 pairs and letting the group take their lumps in their quest for a top pick 

If they try to match up Dahlin and his partner against all the top competition, I'd imagine a lot of his offence would be neutered. I don't think he's at that level yet where he can withstand heavy defensive reliance right now anyways. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Thorny

[Digger]

30 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Don't remember this being posted/discussed:

“When it happened and I found out it was Buffalo, I was super excited,” Butcher, who is entering the final year of his contract, told The Buffalo News during a recent phone interview. “Before coming to New Jersey and I was leaving college as a free agent, I couldn’t speak enough about the Pegulas and everything they have going there, the effort and first-class organization that they’re running. It’s pretty special to be traded to such a place that values hockey, especially the fans. That’s why I was very excited when I found out it was the Sabres.”

“A lot of familiarity, a lot of respect for him,” Butcher said of Granato. “I was really excited when he got the job and that I’m getting the chance to play for him again.  … He loves smart hockey players. He loves playing fast, having the puck and being on the attack. Those are all strengths of my game. That’s why I think that when he was my coach we jelled well together because I think we see the game very similarly.”

“It’s huge motivation for me because I know I belong in this league,” said Butcher. “I know I can play valuable minutes every night. It’s huge motivation for me to prove people wrong about myself and get back out there and have a bounce-back year and just establish myself again. … I’m excited, I’m really motivated and ready to get to Buffalo to get started soon and get after it.”

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/new-sabres-defenseman-will-butcher-motivated-to-prove-people-wrong-this-season/article_e5f49446-04da-11ec-93f3-d3bee9312db0.html

Sounds like Lindy Ruff wasn't a fan, and Butcher lost his job/role to rookie Ty Smith. He was a healthy scratch for the first nine games of the season, and he sat for 18 consecutive games from March 7 through April 11.

What are the expectations for this guy?

 

I think that he will have a productive season with the Sabres.  He's motivated and there's room for ice time.  That being said I expect that he will be moved at the trade deadline.

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I'm not sure the Sabres as currently constructed have the means of "protecting" anyone. Their answer to that problem before was to overplay Risto, torpedoing his metrics in the process by giving him all the tough minutes - and he's now gone. More likely I see Adams rolling all 3 pairs and letting the group take their lumps in their quest for a top pick 

I agree which is why I’ve been saying I don’t understand the Butcher acquisition.

They can limit him by playing him with Pysyk for about 12 minutes a night 5 on 5 and then use him on the PP

Edited September 1, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree which is why I’ve been saying I don’t understand the Butcher acquisition.

Pretty sure that boils down to:

he's cheap,

he's played for Granato before,

he wants to be in Buffalo playing for Granato, and

he doesn't have a complete game but has a skill set that only 1 or 2 of the other Sabres D possess. (Which could be seen as an opportunity to exploit his strengths situationally (yes, there is a flip side to that coin & other teams will be looking to exploit that as well).)

Oh, and did we mention he's cheap.  😉

 

[Thorner]

11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree which is why I’ve been saying I don’t understand the Butcher acquisition.

They can limit him by playing him with Pysyk for about 12 minutes a night 5 on 5 and then use him on the PP

With due respect I don't think it's difficult to understand the Butcher acquisition (or any made by Adams this summer) at all - if the team was actually prioritizing winning Adams' offseason work on the roster is objectively hilarious. He took a bad team and made them worse. Why is Butcher here? Because he wants to be, he was available, and Adams didn't need to worry about bringing in better. This exact same thinking can be applied to the goalies, all the 750k forwards...

Adams wasn't so much concerned with filling out a good team as he was simply filling out a team. 

Look at the roster - the design is an attempt to figure out the answer to the question: How do we lose as many games as possible while keeping a positive mindset? A lot of these guys are playing for contracts. They will play hard. And most of them are in that position because they weren't able to earn something more substantial from another team. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Pretty sure that boils down to:

he's cheap,

he's played for Granato before,

he wants to be in Buffalo playing for Granato, and

he doesn't have a complete game but has a skill set that only 1 or 2 of the other Sabres D possess. (Which could be seen as an opportunity to exploit his strengths situationally (yes, there is a flip side to that coin & other teams will be looking to exploit that as well).)

Oh, and did we mention he's cheap.  😉

 

Bold to me being key. 

I was debating for a while that maybe Adams preaching of "guys who want to be here" was simply lip service to spin the narrative on Eichel and while that's still probably a function of it, I think it's specifically relevant to a key component of KA's strategy: guys who want to be here seems to be Adams' chosen answer for how to stop the rotting to the core that occurred last time they weren't interested in winning hockey games

[dudacek]

30 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Bold to me being key. 

I was debating for a while that maybe Adams preaching of "guys who want to be here" was simply lip service to spin the narrative on Eichel and while that's still probably a function of it, I think it's specifically relevant to a key component of KA's strategy: guys who want to be here seems to be Adams' chosen answer for how to stop the rotting to the core that occurred last time they weren't interested in winning hockey games

Good take.

Guys like Butcher, Hagg, Bjork, Hinostroza and Caggiula might not be very good, but they crave the opportunity Buffalo provides - they kinda arrive with the same attitude the Vegas expansion group did.

The same certainly was true for the kids Granato rode down the stretch - they were all hungry for a chance to carve their own space. It’s a nicer mix off the ice than on it and a better foundation upon which to build “culture.”

Edited September 1, 2021 by dudacek

[Taro T]

30 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Bold to me being key. 

I was debating for a while that maybe Adams preaching of "guys who want to be here" was simply lip service to spin the narrative on Eichel and while that's still probably a function of it, I think it's specifically relevant to a key component of KA's strategy: guys who want to be here seems to be Adams' chosen answer for how to stop the rotting to the core that occurred last time they weren't interested in winning hockey games

 

Might be from his perspective.  From ownerships, believe it was more the 1st & last items.

This team will hemorrhage money this year unless payroll is literally skimming the bottom of the payroll band.  They'll still lose money - having 1/3 - 1/2 the seats filled most nights will do that.

(Thing is, they didn't have to go for another reset.  This is ownership/management's doing and we are the ones that will suffer for it.)

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Good take.

Guys like Butcher, Hagg, Bjork, Hinostroza and Caggiula might not be very good, but they crave the opportunity Buffalo provides - they kinda arrive with the same attitude the Vegas expansion group did.

The same certainly was true for the kids Granato rode down the stretch - they were all hungry for a chance to carve their own space. It’s a nicer mix off the ice than on it and a better foundation upon which to build “culture.”

As someone who believes that winning games would aid the most in terms of establishing culture, it'll be interesting to see if Adams' idea holds true, whether or not that morale remains high when the losses start piling up, if they do. The kind of attitude you speak of players having often goes hand in hand with the type of competitiveness that tends to boil over when results aren't achieved. 

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Might be from his perspective.  From ownerships, believe it was more the 1st & last items.

This team will hemorrhage money this year unless payroll is literally skimming the bottom of the payroll band.  They'll still lose money - having 1/3 - 1/2 the seats filled most nights will do that.

(Thing is, they didn't have to go for another reset.  This is ownership/management's doing and we are the ones that will suffer for it.)

I don't agree with the strategy Adams is employing, but I definitely am trying to understand its merits and the reasons for why Adams think it will work. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Might be from his perspective.  From ownerships, believe it was more the 1st & last items.

This team will hemorrhage money this year unless payroll is literally skimming the bottom of the payroll band.  They'll still lose money - having 1/3 - 1/2 the seats filled most nights will do that.

(Thing is, they didn't have to go for another reset.  This is ownership/management's doing and we are the ones that will suffer for it.)

I’ve moved away from the bold.

I think Jack was tied to the Sabres by a very slender thread when Adams was hired. Last year was largely about trying to make sure the thread wouldn’t break, but it did.

I mean sure the Sabres could have prevented things from getting to this point, if that’s your point, but they didn’t.

The only thing they could have done differently was traded him Sam and Risto for now instead of future.

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

As someone who believes that winning games would aid the most in terms of establishing culture, it'll be interesting to see if Adams' idea holds true, whether or not that morale remains high when the losses start piling up, if they do. The kind of attitude you speak of players having often goes hand in hand with the type of competitiveness that tends to boil over when results aren't achieved. 

I don't agree with the strategy Adams is employing, but I definitely am trying to understand it's merits and the reasons for why Adams think it will work. 

Really believe that he thought Eichel was a bad piece to build around.  And the current carnage we are living through is his attempt to e case that piece.  And with already knowing he was losing McCabe and turning away from Jack would make Reinhart's wanting out to be official, he figured pull the band-aid off now.

Believe he really did want Ullmark to re-sign, but even with that this team was going to be challenged, to put it mildly.

3 years from now, maybe even 2, there should be a critical mass of youth coming into their own; but maybe these next 2 years keep that mass from reaching its potential.  Know it's a broken record, but worst - summer - ever.

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

As someone who believes that winning games would aid the most in terms of establishing culture, it'll be interesting to see if Adams' idea holds true, whether or not that morale remains high when the losses start piling up, if they do. The kind of attitude you speak of players having often goes hand in hand with the type of competitiveness that tends to boil over when results aren't achieved. 

I don't agree with the strategy Adams is employing, but I definitely am trying to understand its merits and the reasons for why Adams think it will work. 

That’s why they have to acquire another centre and the goaltending situation is so indefensible the way it currently stands.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, dudacek said:

I’ve moved away from the bold.

I think Jack was tied to the Sabres by a very slender thread when Adams was hired. Last year was largely about trying to make sure the thread wouldn’t break, but it did.

I mean sure the Sabres could have prevented things from getting to this point, if that’s your point, but they didn’t.

The only thing they could have done differently was traded him Sam and Risto for now instead of future.

 

Point is, Adams didn't really want Eichel as the centerpiece of this team from day 1, IMHO.  All the rest flows from that.

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Really believe that he thought Eichel was a bad piece to build around.  And the current carnage we are living through is his attempt to e case that piece.  And with already knowing he was losing McCabe and turning away from Jack would make Reinhart's wanting out to be official, he figured pull the band-aid off now.

Believe he really did want Ullmark to re-sign, but even with that this team was going to be challenged, to put it mildly.

3 years from now, maybe even 2, there should be a critical mass of youth coming into their own; but maybe these next 2 years keep that mass from reaching its potential.  Know it's a broken record, but worst - summer - ever.

I think critical mass was something I was optimistic we were headed for, finally, when Eichel and Reinhart were still here. Finally beginning to supplement them with players like hopefully Cozens, Quinn, etc to build a real team - a team with the depth it never had under an Eichel off his ELC.

With our best player and asset, by far, headed out the door, and our next best F already gone, I don't see "critical mass" on the way. I don't see it as "not" coming one day, but many of the pieces we'd need to rely on for that are "NA" right now. 

They are looking towards the next few drafts. It's merely a crapshoot. 

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

That’s why they have to acquire another centre and the goaltending situation is so indefensible the way it currently stands.

100% with you 

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Point is, Adams didn't really want Eichel as the centerpiece of this team from day 1, IMHO.  All the rest flows from that.

I do believe this. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

I think critical mass was something I was optimistic we were headed for, finally, when Eichel and Reinhart were still here. Finally beginning to supplement them with players like hopefully Cozens, Quinn, etc to build a real team - a team with the depth it never had under an Eichel off his ELC.

With our best player and asset, by far, headed out the door, and our next best F already gone, I don't see "critical mass" on the way. I don't see it as "not" coming one day, but many of the pieces we'd need to rely on for that are "NA" right now. 

They are looking towards the next few drafts. It's merely a crapshoot. 

100% with you 

I do believe this. 

To the bolded, absolutely.

But, don't see Adams trading away the youth that will all have 4-8 years of experience in 3 years.  The last tank/rebuild punted pretty much everything but Ristolainen, Girgensons, & McCabe.  Some pieces will be gone but Power isn't going to be the most experienced asset coming out of this rebuild.

Expect Eichel will add to that youth.

And they will necessarily end up with good pieces in the next 2 drafts.

But it is definitely a crapshoot whether that potential will be reached.  And it's quite possible persistent losing will take its toll.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded, absolutely.

But, don't see Adams trading away the youth that will all have 4-8 years of experience in 3 years.  The last tank/rebuild punted pretty much everything but Ristolainen, Girgensons, & McCabe.  Some pieces will be gone but Power isn't going to be the most experienced asset coming out of this rebuild.

Expect Eichel will add to that youth.

And they will necessarily end up with good pieces in the next 2 drafts.

But it is definitely a crapshoot whether that potential will be reached.  And it's quite possible persistent losing will take its toll.

I mean we couldn't manage to achieve critical mass in the last decade - I certainly can't even envision it on the horizon in the wake of dealing our best players. Not trying to be negative or saying it won't happen but, there's no horizon right now. We are preparing for a climb up Everest and our foundational equipment looks reasonably solid. That's about it. 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded, absolutely.

But, don't see Adams trading away the youth that will all have 4-8 years of experience in 3 years.  The last tank/rebuild punted pretty much everything but Ristolainen, Girgensons, & McCabe.  Some pieces will be gone but Power isn't going to be the most experienced asset coming out of this rebuild.

Expect Eichel will add to that youth.

And they will necessarily end up with good pieces in the next 2 drafts.

But it is definitely a crapshoot whether that potential will be reached.  And it's quite possible persistent losing will take its toll.

The difference between this year and 2014 for me is that the 1st wave of the potential new core - Dahlin/Jokiharju/Cozens/Mittelstadt/ Thompson/Asplund - is already here and NHL battle-hardened to a certain extent.

And the 2nd wave -Bryson, Samuelsson, Lukkonnen, Laaksonen, Peterka, Quinn, Johnson, Power, Poltapov, Kisakov, Rosen, Levi - is already in the system.

This season’s tankfruit - likely a lottery pick, Florida’s 1st, the Eichel return - won’t be joining an empty pipeline.

But development remains so crucial; the plum results of the first two waves can’t be more Girgensons and Baileys.

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The difference between this year and 2014 for me is that the 1st wave of the potential new core - Dahlin/Jokiharju/Cozens/Mittelstadt/ Thompson/Asplund - is already here and NHL battle-hardened to a certain extent.

And the 2nd wave -Bryson, Samuelsson, Lukkonnen, Laaksonen, Peterka, Quinn, Johnson, Power, Poltapov, Kisakov, Rosen, Levi - is already in the system.

This season’s tankfruit - likely a lottery pick, Florida’s 1st, the Eichel return - won’t be joining an empty pipeline.

But development remains so crucial; the plum results of the first two waves can’t be more Girgensons and Baileys.

We already has this the first time. 

As you said, it comes down to development. I already mapped out the two sides the last time we had this discussion, we would theoretically pass the first group in mass of assets if we commit to two full years of tanking. 

I'm not one to look at future drafts as any kind of certainty in terms of amassing a "critical level" of talent - it's all relative. The draft is deep for all the other teams in the league next year, too. 

Our system, prospects and roster, compares favourably, at this time, to perhaps zero other NHL systems. Seriously, counting every asset in the organization, which organization would you take the Sabres over? Couldn't you count them on one hand?

This is the most simple way to look at it, because so much of our perceived pathway to success lies in unlocked future value. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

31 minutes ago, Thorny said:

As someone who believes that winning games would aid the most in terms of establishing culture, it'll be interesting to see if Adams' idea holds true, whether or not that morale remains high when the losses start piling up, if they do. The kind of attitude you speak of players having often goes hand in hand with the type of competitiveness that tends to boil over when results aren't achieved. 

I don't agree with the strategy Adams is employing, but I definitely am trying to understand its merits and the reasons for why Adams think it will work. 

I'm pretty much in agreement with you here.  I think winning games or more generally being competitive each night would do much more for the culture that anything else.  No one wants to work for a company or team going under.  

As to Butcher, him wanting to be here is all well and good, but why being him in at all. Bryson may not be as dynamic offensively, but he is better on defense and KA's stated goal was not to block the kids.  With Miller and Dahlin already on the roster, and Bryson capable of adding some O, Butcher is a luxury that was completely unnecessary.   He also isn't cheap.  We are paying 2.8 mill (of his 3.7) for a guy who'll likely be a 3rd pairing guy, giving us the same value as a 750K scrap heap vet.  It's a waste of money.  

KA should have spent the 2.8 on a goalie and at least made us a touch more competitive.  Like I said this acquisition makes no sense.