A Serious Sports Psychology Question about culture and losing.

[PerreaultForever]

I've been a Sabres fan for over 45 years and don't think I've ever felt as hopeless about this team as I do right now. Maybe as I age and get closer to death it's my own feeling that I will never see a cup winner in my lifetime but there just never seems to be an end to this. The first tank was bad, but it gave hope for a rebuild and a turnaround as we had this sure thing generational star coming (one of the big two guaranteed). This time we have top notch prospects coming and some young talent but how long before that amounts to nothing better? I just don't know any more. We needed to surround these kids we have with veteran leadership in order to build a foundation but what did we do instead? Stripped it down and added nothing. There is absolutely zero chance this team can win and make the playoffs. ZERO. 

 So here's what I'm wondering and if we have any sports psychologists around what's the real answer? ROR lost his love, Risto was fed up with losing, Sm wasn't going to re-sign, Jack has had enough and wants out. We have the timelines on how long that took. Players like Cozens come in here full of spirit and desire and now he's got one year of losing already. We are clearly adding another this season. How long before he loses his love and wants out? Dahlin's had a few years already how many more until he's the same as Risto? Who will lead this team at all? Who will keep the fire burning for all these kids in a losing environment and how many years until it all happens again? 

I'm serious, if this is a strip down and redo from scratch how much time do we have until it's all bust yet again?

[Cal Naughton Jr]

It’s a great time to be a Bills fan. If you’re not already, hop on the band wagon because we’re winning a ***** super bowl within the next couple years 

[Zamboni]

1 minute ago, Cal Naughton Jr said:

It’s a great time to be a Bills fan. If you’re not already, hop on the band wagon because we’re winning a ***** super bowl within the next couple years 

Friendly bet says they won’t win a bleeping super bowl in the next 2,3, or 4 years.

[Cal Naughton Jr]

2 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Friendly bet says they won’t win a bleeping super bowl in the next 2,3, or 4 years.

You’re on fella 🤝

[Gatorman0519]

I agree. It is almost you have to try and be this dysfunctional.  By sheer odds we should by accident have a few good years/drafts.  But it is constant ineptitude that has shaped this franchise into the worst franchise in current existence.  It is not even close. Next year we officially will hold the record of the longest active playoff drought of all time. 

[PerreaultForever]

It is telling I suppose that the comments quickly shifted to the Bills. 

[Cal Naughton Jr]

4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It is telling I suppose that the comments quickly shifted to the Bills. 

I consider myself more of a Bills fan than a Sabres fan. I’ve been a Bills fan my whole life but I didn’t really start getting fully invested into the sabres until I was in my mid 20’s. I’ll be 40 this year. I was there for the playoff drought for the Bills and now here I am front and center for the Sabres terrible run. We need as fans for one of them to be good. Thank god the Bills turned it around because I am emotionally invested in these teams, if they both sucked I don’t know what I would do…

[Marvin]

7 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It is telling I suppose that the comments quickly shifted to the Bills. 

Correct.

I believe that losing can become a habit.  The Tank helped create that because success was undermined at every turn by trades.  Then the attempted acceleration of the rebuild added to it because there was no foundation to build off of.  Now, yet another full sell-off reset is acceptable after another full sell-off reset; what should have happened was a rebuild while keeping the players that worked and adding to them instead of trying to lose.  Until someone gets time, goaltending, grit, and talent, the team is doomed to be in an endless cycle of losing.

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Correct.

I believe that losing can become a habit.  The Tank helped create that because success was undermined at every turn by trades.  Then the attempted acceleration of the rebuild added to it because there was no foundation to build off of.  Now, yet another full sell-off reset is acceptable after another full sell-off reset; what should have happened was a rebuild while keeping the players that worked and adding to them instead of trying to lose.  Until someone gets time, goaltending, grit, and talent, the team is doomed to be in an endless cycle of losing.

This is exactly it and speaks to my question. We're going to be fed the idea that this is a new era, turned page, rebuild etc.  It's stripped down to the studs so to speak, but how long until you've just taught the next bunch to lose? There doesn't seem to be a build plan going along with the deconstruction of the losing plan. 

[Marvin]

10 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is exactly it and speaks to my question. We're going to be fed the idea that this is a new era, turned page, rebuild etc.  It's stripped down to the studs so to speak, but how long until you've just taught the next bunch to lose? There doesn't seem to be a build plan going along with the deconstruction of the losing plan. 

Luckily, this is not down to the studs.  There should be 4 lines and 3 pairs of NHL-quality players -- granted with no #1 line and probably a bottom-half defencive corps.  Also, some NHL-AHL tweeners may help with depth.  We do need goaltenders in the worst way, though.

The coach is trying to win.  The GM will not undermine him by trading away decent players when things are going well.  That will be a huge improvement over XGMTM.

[OverPowerYou]

The kings, Blackhawks and blues all won Stanley cups after having abysmal franchises for decades. There’s hope

Edited July 30, 2021 by OverPowerYou

[Pimlach]

On 7/28/2021 at 6:59 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I've been a Sabres fan for over 45 years and don't think I've ever felt as hopeless about this team as I do right now. Maybe as I age and get closer to death it's my own feeling that I will never see a cup winner in my lifetime but there just never seems to be an end to this. The first tank was bad, but it gave hope for a rebuild and a turnaround as we had this sure thing generational star coming (one of the big two guaranteed). This time we have top notch prospects coming and some young talent but how long before that amounts to nothing better? I just don't know any more. We needed to surround these kids we have with veteran leadership in order to build a foundation but what did we do instead? Stripped it down and added nothing. There is absolutely zero chance this team can win and make the playoffs. ZERO. 

 So here's what I'm wondering and if we have any sports psychologists around what's the real answer? ROR lost his love, Risto was fed up with losing, Sm wasn't going to re-sign, Jack has had enough and wants out. We have the timelines on how long that took. Players like Cozens come in here full of spirit and desire and now he's got one year of losing already. We are clearly adding another this season. How long before he loses his love and wants out? Dahlin's had a few years already how many more until he's the same as Risto? Who will lead this team at all? Who will keep the fire burning for all these kids in a losing environment and how many years until it all happens again? 

I'm serious, if this is a strip down and redo from scratch how much time do we have until it's all bust yet again?

Tired if rebuilds?  I too have many posts along these lines.  
 

People complain about culture like it’s something you can buy in a bottle.  The team makes the culture.  The whole team, front off down to last guy on the depth chart.  Until they stop rebuilding and have the mindset to win nothing will change. 
 

I get the current situation.   Risto, Same, Jake, and Linus should want to leave. Jack is on contract but clearly wants out, even if no one can produce a quote from him saying it, actions speak louder than words. 
 

My biggest issue with what they are doing is going into the season with Dell and Anderson at G.  My focus on fixing the Goaltending position is well known.  It looks like we have a good developmental group everywhere except center.  
 

Another tough season is ahead and we still  repeating this cycle again if we don’t start winning soon. 
 

 

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, OverPowerYou said:

The kings, Blackhawks and blues all won Stanley cups after having abysmal franchises for decades. There’s hope

Will give you the 1st 2, but the Blues were basically a slightly lesser version of the 1st 40 years of Sabres hockey.  Good to very good regular seasons with the occasional stinker but very rare playoff success and never a championship. 

[matter2003]

You have to get people in here that haven't been burdened by the past. Like the Bills did. They shipped out a TON of players that were around for the losing and kept only the few that still had great attitudes and wanted to work hard to turn it around and be a part of it like Kyle Williams.

But most of them had to go...they were too accustomed to the losing and didn't think anything would change.

I read a leadership book once and I remember the statement that he made was profound.

He said "Before you can get the right people on the bus, you have to get the wrong people off the bus"

In other words, anyone who isn't going to be down with the program Adams and Granato are trying to establish here have to go and it doesn't matter who they are. They gotta go. Because you cannot have key players sabotaging the coach internally and expect it to work. Eichel has gotten multiple coaches fired since his time here. Where has that gotten us? 

Gotta pull the plug and just say it isn't working. He is a supreme talent but that doesn't lead us to wins, so what use is it?

[Radar]

8 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

You have to get people in here that haven't been burdened by the past. Like the Bills did. They shipped out a TON of players that were around for the losing and kept only the few that still had great attitudes and wanted to work hard to turn it around and be a part of it like Kyle Williams.

But most of them had to go...they were too accustomed to the losing and didn't think anything would change.

I read a leadership book once and I remember the statement that he made was profound.

He said "Before you can get the right people on the bus, you have to get the wrong people off the bus"

In other words, anyone who isn't going to be down with the program Adams and Granato are trying to establish here have to go and it doesn't matter who they are. They gotta go. Because you cannot have key players sabotaging the coach internally and expect it to work. Eichel has gotten multiple coaches fired since his time here. Where has that gotten us? 

Gotta pull the plug and just say it isn't working. He is a supreme talent but that doesn't lead us to wins, so what use is it?

Was that book by Coach Wooden by chance?

[dudacek]

32 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

You have to get people in here that haven't been burdened by the past. Like the Bills did. They shipped out a TON of players that were around for the losing and kept only the few that still had great attitudes and wanted to work hard to turn it around and be a part of it like Kyle Williams.

But most of them had to go...they were too accustomed to the losing and didn't think anything would change.

I read a leadership book once and I remember the statement that he made was profound.

He said "Before you can get the right people on the bus, you have to get the wrong people off the bus"

In other words, anyone who isn't going to be down with the program Adams and Granato are trying to establish here have to go and it doesn't matter who they are. They gotta go. Because you cannot have key players sabotaging the coach internally and expect it to work. Eichel has gotten multiple coaches fired since his time here. Where has that gotten us? 

Gotta pull the plug and just say it isn't working. He is a supreme talent but that doesn't lead us to wins, so what use is it?

Looks like Adams has been reading your library.

[Taro T]

33 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

You have to get people in here that haven't been burdened by the past. Like the Bills did. They shipped out a TON of players that were around for the losing and kept only the few that still had great attitudes and wanted to work hard to turn it around and be a part of it like Kyle Williams.

But most of them had to go...they were too accustomed to the losing and didn't think anything would change.

I read a leadership book once and I remember the statement that he made was profound.

He said "Before you can get the right people on the bus, you have to get the wrong people off the bus"

In other words, anyone who isn't going to be down with the program Adams and Granato are trying to establish here have to go and it doesn't matter who they are. They gotta go. Because you cannot have key players sabotaging the coach internally and expect it to work. Eichel has gotten multiple coaches fired since his time here. Where has that gotten us? 

Gotta pull the plug and just say it isn't working. He is a supreme talent but that doesn't lead us to wins, so what use is it?

What coach that has been here during Eichel's tenure that got canned didn't deserve to get canned?

Bylsma won a Stanley Cup his 1st time coaching inheriting a team that had been in the Final the previous year.  Once he started getting full off-seasons to implement HIS systems he consistently underwhelmed expectations.  That Pittsburgh won a Cup under Bylsma is a testament to how good Crosby and crew really were.  They overcame Dan's whiteboards full of info to be thinking about on the ice & just played - at a very high level no less.

Housley was the "defense whisperer" who managed to not drag down the best collection of D talent in the league.  It was like saying Adam Gase was an offensive genius because he didn't bring down Peyton Manning. 

Pretty sure there are many here that will gladly go into Krueger's shortcomings.

Multiple coaches have gotten themselves fired.  That's not on Eichel.

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Tired if rebuilds?  I too have many posts along these lines.  
 

People complain about culture like it’s something you can buy in a bottle.  The team makes the culture.  The whole team, front off down to last guy on the depth chart.  Until they stop rebuilding and have the mindset to win nothing will change. 
 

I get the current situation.   Risto, Same, Jake, and Linus should want to leave. Jack is on contract but clearly wants out, even if no one can produce a quote from him saying it, actions speak louder than words. 
 

My biggest issue with what they are doing is going into the season with Dell and Anderson at G.  My focus on fixing the Goaltending position is well known.  It looks like we have a good developmental group everywhere except center.  
 

Another tough season is ahead and we still  repeating this cycle again if we don’t start winning soon. 
 

 

With you 100%. It's going to be UPL and one of them though I'd bet on it. It's WRONG, but that's what it's going to be. Unless he's absolutely horrible and clearly not ready in preseason it'll be UPL, that's their masterplan now. If it's Anderson and Dell, well then we are just teaching the next bunch to lose like we did with the last bunch.

We needed to surround these kids with solid veterans who work hard and Adams gave that rhetoric, but his veterans were just unemployed cast offs. I guess the hope is they are all hard working Curtis Lazar types, but really, it's just garbage. 

[matter2003]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

What coach that has been here during Eichel's tenure that got canned didn't deserve to get canned?

Bylsma won a Stanley Cup his 1st time coaching inheriting a team that had been in the Final the previous year.  Once he started getting full off-seasons to implement HIS systems he consistently underwhelmed expectations.  That Pittsburgh won a Cup under Bylsma is a testament to how good Crosby and crew really were.  They overcame Dan's whiteboards full of info to be thinking about on the ice & just played - at a very high level no less.

Housley was the "defense whisperer" who managed to not drag down the best collection of D talent in the league.  It was like saying Adam Gase was an offensive genius because he didn't bring down Peyton Manning. 

Pretty sure there are many here that will gladly go into Krueger's shortcomings.

Multiple coaches have gotten themselves fired.  That's not on Eichel.

What has Eichel led us to except the bottom of the league standings and multiple first overall draft picks.  Shouldn't be happening with a player that good. He should be lifting the play of his teammates but instead he is allowing them to drag him down.

Edited July 30, 2021 by matter2003

[pi2000]

As someone who played, you want a captain who does all the little things exceptionally well... I'm talking about hustling to the bench for line changes, high effort plays, 3rd 4th 5th effort never quitting on any puck, willing to block a shot in key moments, keeping the boys spirits up when things aren't going your way.   

Jack never really did any of these things consistently enough, so if I was on his team and he had something to say I'd be like "meh, whatever dude."  

When he's the supposed "leader" and he doesn't do those little things, then why would I?  That creates a poor culture... no matter how much guys like each other in the room.   

[sabrefanday1]

I too have been a Sabre fan from day one and have seen some really good times and have been heartbroken when we were so damn close to winning a cup. I have watched the French Connection and still have a authentic #18 Danny Gare team sweater. I loved this team and even up to the years with Briere and Drury and of course that bogus goal by Brett Hull to win the cup that...you get the picture. 

   Anyways,m having played and coached hockey most my life, there is no doubt winning is contagious, just as losing is too. Winning spawns momentum and confidence, and this team oozed that years ago. It certainly seems  that since the Pegulas took over thing shave really gone downhill.  I know there is a big push for them to sell but then again   one needs to be careful what they wish for...new owners might want to move the team and once a team is gone (as in Quebec) it is real hard to get a new franchise.  I see a big part of the problem as the continuous  changing of management as the biggest problem as each new GM wants to make this his team, and moves out the previous regime's players and bring in his own players. Thus we move Sam who without any doubt should have been re-signed. It is absolutely absurd to tank to get guys like Sam then let him walk. We drafted and developed Linus, McCabe, Risto etc and then just let them walk away. No wonder no one wants to play here. Once you get any good they let you walk and don;t re--sign you yet sign over-priced guys like Skinner & Okposo. I

I am like Perraultforever...I am tired of the losing and  I get that we are free to leave and not follow the team but after almost a lifetime of following them I just want them to win and be competitive again. Clearly that is not happening any time soon.  I would have been more then happy to enter this season with Granato coaching and with Sam and yes even Risto who I liked.  If we could get a healthy Jack back and added a actualy NHL goalie aI thought we'd be very competitive. No hope now that's for sure...at least not for this year

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

On 7/28/2021 at 5:59 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I've been a Sabres fan for over 45 years

[triumph_communes]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

As someone who played, you want a captain who does all the little things exceptionally well... I'm talking about hustling to the bench for line changes, high effort plays, 3rd 4th 5th effort never quitting on any puck, willing to block a shot in key moments, keeping the boys spirits up when things aren't going your way.   

Jack never really did any of these things consistently enough, so if I was on his team and he had something to say I'd be like "meh, whatever dude."  

When he's the supposed "leader" and he doesn't do those little things, then why would I?  That creates a poor culture... no matter how much guys like each other in the room.   

This x1000

[triumph_communes]

2 hours ago, sabrefanday1 said:

I too have been a Sabre fan from day one and have seen some really good times and have been heartbroken when we were so damn close to winning a cup. I have watched the French Connection and still have a authentic #18 Danny Gare team sweater. I loved this team and even up to the years with Briere and Drury and of course that bogus goal by Brett Hull to win the cup that...you get the picture. 

   Anyways,m having played and coached hockey most my life, there is no doubt winning is contagious, just as losing is too. Winning spawns momentum and confidence, and this team oozed that years ago. It certainly seems  that since the Pegulas took over thing shave really gone downhill.  I know there is a big push for them to sell but then again   one needs to be careful what they wish for...new owners might want to move the team and once a team is gone (as in Quebec) it is real hard to get a new franchise.  I see a big part of the problem as the continuous  changing of management as the biggest problem as each new GM wants to make this his team, and moves out the previous regime's players and bring in his own players. Thus we move Sam who without any doubt should have been re-signed. It is absolutely absurd to tank to get guys like Sam then let him walk. We drafted and developed Linus, McCabe, Risto etc and then just let them walk away. No wonder no one wants to play here. Once you get any good they let you walk and don;t re--sign you yet sign over-priced guys like Skinner & Okposo. I

I am like Perraultforever...I am tired of the losing and  I get that we are free to leave and not follow the team but after almost a lifetime of following them I just want them to win and be competitive again. Clearly that is not happening any time soon.  I would have been more then happy to enter this season with Granato coaching and with Sam and yes even Risto who I liked.  If we could get a healthy Jack back and added a actualy NHL goalie aI thought we'd be very competitive. No hope now that's for sure...at least not for this year

It’s not wrong in their approach. It’s just who is doing it and how

 

KAs main point in his presser is stick to the plan. Don’t get emotional. Don’t speed things up. Stick to it. That 100% is someone telling the owner to stay out and don’t undermine the process. That owner saw what the Bills have done and is now listening. 
 

Jack isn’t the leader.  He hasn’t faced adversity except by blaming others when it’s happened. Hey may never do so. Start over

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

and proud of it.