Updated Sabres Prospect Pool 2021 and beyond

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

He hated the selection as he thought there were F's that would be better than him.  But he thought Johnson will be an NHLer and a good player.

And so far that's exactly what's happened. 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

He thought that Johnson was drafted too high.  That there was forward talent (Kaliyev, Nick Robertson) still on the board that was both better value and a larger organizational need.  It’s not that he disliked Johnson, he just liked other players more.

As he’s told us 100 times.  About every player they have drafted outside of the top 2 for the last decade.  Sounds kinda fruitless to me. 

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

And so far that's exactly what's happened. 

Whew.   I thought you weren’t going to pat yourself on the back for a second.  

[Curt]

13 minutes ago, inkman said:

As he’s told us 100 times.  About every player they have drafted outside of the top 2 for the last decade.  Sounds kinda fruitless to me. 

Whew.   I thought you weren’t going to pat yourself on the back for a second.  

I’m just trying to help you out.  If your goal was just  to aggravate someone, you’ve succeeded in aggravating two.

[kas23]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

And so far that's exactly what's happened. 

That making the huge assumption we would’ve picked a talented F at that spot instead of Johnson. 

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, inkman said:

As he’s told us 100 times.  About every player they have drafted outside of the top 2 for the last decade.  Sounds kinda fruitless to me. 

Whew.   I thought you weren’t going to pat yourself on the back for a second.  

You brought up Ryan Johnson at the draft. This team's missed the playoffs for a decade because they miss finding value at the draft. Ryan Johnson is missed value but since they've started to fix their drafting he represents less missed value. Just like Poltapov is less value than Raty but Poltapov is still good. 

If I'm required by this board to admit my mistakes, I sure as hell get to point out my correct ideas, especially on one's where I get ***** on for going against the grain of this board. 

3 minutes ago, kas23 said:

That making the huge assumption we would’ve picked a talented F at that spot instead of Johnson. 

Not really. I figured it out sitting at home. 

[LGR4GM]

12 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’m just trying to help you out.  If your goal was just  to aggravate someone, you’ve succeeded in aggravating two.

It's borderline trolling.

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Here is a comparison for you

Age 22 Season

VO (SHL) - 50gms 27g 16a 43 pts - .86 pts/gm

R2 (Liiga) - 44gms 15g 28a 43 pts - .98 pts/gm 

Age 23 season

VO (AHL) 66gm 30g 33a 63 pts - .96 pts/gm

VO (NHL) 6 gms 2g 2a 4pts - .67 pts/gm 

R2 (Liiga) 19gm 16g 11a 27 pts - 1.42 pts/gm

R2 (AHL) 13gm 5g 8a 13 pts - 1 pt/gm

R2 (NHL) 17gm 5g 1a 6 pts - .35 pts/gm

They have taken very similar paths to the NHL.  VO's full rookie year at 24 produced 42 pts in 54 games but 11 of the 20 goals and 17 of the 42 pts came on the PP. R2 received no PP time last season, but is now primed to get PP time this coming fall.  

 

Just an FYI:  I'd keep an eye on Weissbach in the AHL next season

He is physically very similar to R2 and VO.  He also had a great 22 year old season in the NCAA with 41 pts (12g 29a) in 31 games. 

Using Dobber's NHLe for VO, R2 and LW on their 22 year old seasons.  Vo's was 42 while both LW and R2 was 36.  Obviously I think R2's upside is similar to VO's.  I'm very curious if Weissbach can translate his NCAA success to AHL next season.  

 

 

[Thorner]

12 hours ago, dudacek said:

I see Alex Pietrangelo upside in Power. It’s not Hedman, but it’s top-10 NHL defenceman.

Do you think Dylan has top 10 upside? I need to revisit WJC game tape, because maybe I’m spending too much time thinking about the kid that hit a wall hard over the last 20 games.

Well, I'd say Cozens has top 20 C upside. I agree Hedman isn't the track Power is on. Pietrangelo I could get behind as an upside, but I think A)Power is much less likely to get as close to his upside as Cozens does and B) I'd rather have the ~15th best C than the ~10th best D, say, in a hypothetical. Centers have more value in today's game so I lean that way in ranking them.

Regardless of what GA says I don't personally view Cozens as a "prospect" now, so in that case Power is by default #1 on my list. I also see Cozens' floor as 2C and Power's as 2D, and I know which of those positions I consider more important. 

(At least in regards to discussions around here involving "system strength" and our weakness at centre therein, I am not going to include Cozens in that system. Someone wants to say he is to make the system looks better, fine, but then we have only 1 potential T6 C on the roster and only 1 in the system (where I usually say "zero", already having Cozens as "NHL"). Basically when we talk of need at C in the system I don't wanna hear back, "but Cozens!".)

Edited July 26, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorner]

10 hours ago, Hoss said:

I don't believe Bryson showed a lot of promise in the NHL last season so I have low expectations for him and wouldn't expect him to be in the NHL or at least on this team when they get to competing.

I will add he has already gotten to a point in his career I didn’t expect him to do there’s definitely potential he keeps doing that.

According the the GDTs he was better than Dahlin already, so this can't be right

[Taro T]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Well, I'd say Cozens has top 20 C upside. I agree Hedman isn't the track Power is on. Pietrangelo I could get behind as an upside, but I think A)Power is much less likely to get as close to his upside as Cozens does and B) I'd rather have the ~15th best C than the ~10th best D, say, in a hypothetical. Centers have more value in today's game so I lean that way in ranking them.

Regardless of what GA says I don't personally view Cozens as a "prospect" now, so in that case Power is by default #1 on my list. I also see Cozens' floor as 2C and Power's as 2D, and I know which of those positions I consider more important. 

(At least in regards to discussions around here involving "system strength" and our weakness at centre therein, I am not going to include Cozens in that system. Someone wants to say he is to make the system looks better, fine, but when we have only 1 potential T6 C on the roster and only 1 in the system (where I usually say "zero", already having Cozens as "NHL"). Basically when we talk of need at C in the system I don't wanna hear back, "but Cozens!".)

Minor quibble..  Though the most likely outcome for Cozens is 2C w/ potential to be a 1C, would say his floor is 3C.

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Minor quibble..  Though the most likely outcome for Cozens is 2C w/ potential to be a 1C, would say his floor is 3C.

I was trying to give both their most likely "floor" to be nice. 

In reality both could crash and burn and get dealt. Or end up on the third pair or at 3C, ya. I don't see Cozens as less likely to end up a 2C than Power a 2D, imo

[dudacek]

Here’s something that seems to be forgotten: Ruotsalainen is a centre.

He may have played the wing in Buffalo, but all his recent success in Europe and in the AHL was in the middle.

He will be in Buffalo next season.I wonder where he is slotted on Kevyn’s big board?

Edited July 27, 2021 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

Ruots did show way more than I expected - maybe he got lucky, but there was real NHL skill in some of his best plays. It'll be interesting to see what kind of role he can carve out this year. 

I want some UFA signings to fill out the roster, but I hope they don't go after guys that we can't wait to see leave. There's a real shot that every line that steps on the ice this year will be interesting viewing, even if the team as a whole is bad. It could become one of the most likable sabres teams in a while for that reason. It really gets to you when half of every game is "my god get this line off, why did we go after these guys"

[Gatorman0519]

28 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Ruots did show way more than I expected - maybe he got lucky, but there was real NHL skill in some of his best plays. It'll be interesting to see what kind of role he can carve out this year. 

I want some UFA signings to fill out the roster, but I hope they don't go after guys that we can't wait to see leave. There's a real shot that every line that steps on the ice this year will be interesting viewing, even if the team as a whole is bad. It could become one of the most likable sabres teams in a while for that reason. It really gets to you when half of every game is "my god get this line off, why did we go after these guys"

I was very impressed with R2. That was a great signing. 

[Curt]

43 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Ruots did show way more than I expected - maybe he got lucky, but there was real NHL skill in some of his best plays. It'll be interesting to see what kind of role he can carve out this year. 

I want some UFA signings to fill out the roster, but I hope they don't go after guys that we can't wait to see leave. There's a real shot that every line that steps on the ice this year will be interesting viewing, even if the team as a whole is bad. It could become one of the most likable sabres teams in a while for that reason. It really gets to you when half of every game is "my god get this line off, why did we go after these guys"

I’m really looking forward to seeing what Routsalainen can do too.  I’m not sure much of it was luck.

He started the season by leading Liiga with 16 goals through 19 games, then 13 points in 13 AHL games, then scored 5 goals in his first 17 NHL games.  Doesn’t seem fluky.

[sabresparaavida]

On 7/25/2021 at 9:58 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

My rules - 24 and under and still waiver exempt. Just to clarify, I look at time to the NHL as well as upside.  

1. Power (obviously)

2. Cozens

3. R2

4. JJP

5. Quinn

6. Rosen

7. UPL

8. Poltapov

9. Samuelsson

10. Johnson

11. Kisakov

12. Levi

13. Bryson

14. Portillo

15. Laaksonen

16. Weissbach

17. Nadeau

18. Murray

19. Marjala

20. Rousek

21. Sardarian

22. Bloom

23. Huglen

24. Biro

25. Kukkonen

26. Novikov

 

 

No Matej Pekar?

[Andrew Amerk]

27 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’m really looking forward to seeing what Routsalainen can do too.  I’m not sure much of it was luck.

He started the season by leading Liiga with 16 goals through 19 games, then 13 points in 13 AHL games, then scored 5 goals in his first 17 NHL games.  Doesn’t seem fluky.

I agree. R2 has been solid. He will be fun to watch with more NHL minutes.

[GASabresIUFAN]

23 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

No Matej Pekar?

Fair question.  He kind of struggled last season in his first AHL season but that doesn’t mean he won’t take a step forward next season and move back up the list.  We need a few pests and if he can add some O to his being a pest it will go along way toward making him an NHL depth player.  Still only 21.  Look at the progress Murray made the last two years.

[msw2112]

A bit unrelated, but I was surprised to see the Sabres trade for the goalie Levi in the Reinhart deal.  They have UPL and Portillo in the pipeline, and guys like Tokarski and Houser to stock the minor league slots.  I suppose you can't have too many quality goaltending prospects, but their real need now is NHL-ready goalies (2 of them).  While impressed with the Risto return, I wasn't impressed with the Reihnart return.  I see Reinhart as the much more valuable player.  Florida is a good team, so it is likely to be a late 1st rounder and Levi is years away, if he ever makes it.

Reinhart scored 25 goals for a last-place team that was offensively challenged in a COVID-shortened season.  He stepped into a center role (so he can play wing and center in the NHL at a high level) and was great.  He's been productive his entire career.  He's a top-6 guy, and has been/can be a top-3 guy, entering the prime of his career.  I'm surprised the market did not yield better.  Perhaps it was his UFA status that drove the value down, but wasn't Risto also a UFA after the season?  And not as good of a player overall.

Edited July 27, 2021 by msw2112

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

A bit unrelated, but I was surprised to see the Sabres trade for the goalie Levi in the Reinhart deal.  They have UPL and Portillo in the pipeline, and guys like Tokarski and Houser to stock the minor league slots.  I suppose you can't have too many quality goaltending prospects, but their real need now is NHL-ready goalies (2 of them).  .

Upon further review, I really think the Sabres didn’t so much target a goalie as make it their priority to get the best combination of prospect and 1st-round pick they could, position be damned. Like Bjork, and like the Russian run in the draft, he is an attempt at tapping an under-recognized resource. And I think Levi’s character had high appeal to them. They love these self-motivated types.

Levi and Portillo are each four years from Buffalo and UPL two. A lot can happen over four years. Having three provides competition and insurance. If all 3 emerge, great, we’ve got depth and trade chips. 

[Taro T]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

Upon further review, I really think the Sabres didn’t so much target a goalie as make it their priority to get the best combination of prospect and 1st-round pick they could, position be damned. Like Bjork, and like the Russian run in the draft, he is an attempt at tapping an under-recognized resource. And I think Levi’s character had high appeal to them. They love these self-motivated types.

Levi and Portillo are each four years from Buffalo and UPL two. A lot can happen over four years. Having three provides competition and insurance. If all 3 emerge, great, we’ve got depth and trade chips. 

That's been my contention.  Expect that was the prospect/pick centered deal that looked best to Adams and crew.  Also, would not be surprised if there were better deals available, but they included more of a now player than a prospect, but this season & next season are not the focus.  2-5 years out is the window management seems to have chosen to be their target to be good.

Be bad this year, be bad but improving next year.  Compete the following year.   In a vacuum it isn't an unreasonable strategy but this team has already been bad for 10 years (and really 11, it took a Herculean effort down the stretch to get in the playoffs the year prior to the streak) and it is an unreasonable strategy.

[gilbert11]

Wait, where’s William von Barnekow-Lofgren?

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, gilbert11 said:

Wait, where’s William von Barnekow-Lofgren?

In his casket until sundown.

[LGR4GM]

22 hours ago, Curt said:

I’m really looking forward to seeing what Routsalainen can do too.  I’m not sure much of it was luck.

He started the season by leading Liiga with 16 goals through 19 games, then 13 points in 13 AHL games, then scored 5 goals in his first 17 NHL games.  Doesn’t seem fluky.

He's gonna sneaky good. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 hours ago, dudacek said:

Upon further review, I really think the Sabres didn’t so much target a goalie as make it their priority to get the best combination of prospect and 1st-round pick they could, position be damned. Like Bjork, and like the Russian run in the draft, he is an attempt at tapping an under-recognized resource. And I think Levi’s character had high appeal to them. They love these self-motivated types.

Levi and Portillo are each four years from Buffalo and UPL two. A lot can happen over four years. Having three provides competition and insurance. If all 3 emerge, great, we’ve got depth and trade chips. 

I once heard a GM say a team should draft or sign an undrafted FA goalie every year in order to have a good goalie pipeline.  We used to believe that.  From 1975, when we drafted Sauve (1st rd) and Edwards) to 2007 we drafted at least one goalie every but 4 (1976, 1981, 1985 and 2001) taking 36 different goalies over those 33 drafts).  Then things changed somewhat with the shortening of the draft probably as a partial excuse. From 2008 to 2021, we have gone 7 drafts in which we didn't draft a goalie.  KA has yet to draft a goalie (although he acquired Levi) and TM didn't draft one after drafting Johansson in 2014.   Food for thought.