Face it, the plan for next year is another tank

[SwampD]

My Sabres fandom under the Pegulas.

 

[Doohicksie]

5 minutes ago, jsb said:

Well you are the optimistic one this time, excellent D??..... their all under 23 years of age....... Couple of decent lines?? by what parameter the final 20 games of last year?? I'm hoping this works out also but I doubt it comes to fruition soon

Two #1 overall defensemen, Joki who's also a top young defender, Samuelsson, Bryson, this Hagg guy.... probably 4 of those are legit keepers going forward, plus add a guy here or there.

The biggest problem right now is the top line.  We don't really have one.  Oh, and goalie, we don't technically have one of those either.  But we don't know the return for Eichel yet, we don't know for sure if he's even going to be traded.

They're not going to compete for a Stanley Cub but if they are in the hunt for a playoff spot into March I'll be happy with the progress.  Yes, I'm optimistic.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

I still come back to it being about capable veteran insulation during the "development" years

I think we will see someone.... Casey, Dylan... emerge as a 1C.  Not the best 1C (we're trading him), but a creditable one.  They've been insulated.  They're ready.... I think Mitts in particular is ready to step up.  Cozens about a season or two behind.

[PerreaultForever]

Along with Arizona and Columbus I don't think there's any question, we are in the fight for Wright. 

 Unlike the last tank the young stockpile to move forward with should be deeper and we just might get it wright this time but those 2 teams and maybe a few others will give us a run for the bottom. Odds of being any good are pretty slim, playoffs not a chance. 

 

[Andrew Amerk]

12 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think we will see someone.... Casey, Dylan... emerge as a 1C.  Not the best 1C (we're trading him), but a creditable one.  They've been insulated.  They're ready.... I think Mitts in particular is ready to step up.  Cozens about a season or two behind.

This is fairly crazy to think about, considering quite a few of us wanted to get rid of him not too long ago (I was one of them).

[Doohicksie]

58 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

This is fairly crazy to think about, considering quite a few of us wanted to get rid of him not too long ago (I was one of them).

It is crazy.  Radical change is crazy.

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Two #1 overall defensemen, Joki who's also a top young defender, Samuelsson, Bryson, this Hagg guy.... probably 4 of those are legit keepers going forward, plus add a guy here or there.

The biggest problem right now is the top line.  We don't really have one.  Oh, and goalie, we don't technically have one of those either.  But we don't know the return for Eichel yet, we don't know for sure if he's even going to be traded.

They're not going to compete for a Stanley Cub but if they are in the hunt for a playoff spot into March I'll be happy with the progress.  Yes, I'm optimistic.

Ya, the defense went from kind of nice to kind of thin real quick, and little strategic depth now. 

 

[jsb]

Well Pronman in The Athletic gave the Sabres the only "A" in this draft class, 

Quote

Buffalo Sabres: A

Owen Power is a projected all-star, the only one in the draft for me as of now, which by itself could make the Sabres the biggest beneficiaries of this draft. I think both Isak Rosen and Prokhor Poltapov will become useful scoring wingers in the NHL, and both Aleksandr Kisakov and Olivier Nadeau have solid chances to play games. Stiven Sardarian was high for me, but he’s one of the most skilled players in the class so I respect the bet. I didn’t mind Viljami Marjala and Nikita Novikov late. Overall I really like this class for Buffalo’s future. The Sabres’ still need to add to the center position internally, but they added a star defenseman and a lot of scoring depth.

So that may be a good start to getting this team back on a playoff track because the #1 issue for this team hasn't been necessarily a lack of star/s but a complete lack of depth, hopefully GMKA 1st line of business is getting this thru which sounded like Karmanos mentioned in the pre-draft press conference they had.

[bob_sauve28]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

I think we will see someone.... Casey, Dylan... emerge as a 1C.  Not the best 1C (we're trading him), but a creditable one.  They've been insulated.  They're ready.... I think Mitts in particular is ready to step up.  Cozens about a season or two behind.

Or keep Jack. No complaints from me if we do. Sure ‘solves” a big hole at center that his leaving would create

[thewookie1]

I can’t consider this a tank because we aren’t “tanking”

Tanking is the active kneecapping of your team to finish last and draft high. We did that in 2014 & 2015 where we found a bunch of scrubs to play and traded goalies who got hot.

 

While we are trading the Big 3 away for futures; there is no indication of Adams wanting this team to suck. The Sabres doing bad and the Sabres being made to be bad are two entirely different things. The likely scenario is next year we play with a very young team with a handful of vets. Those young players aren’t just placeholders however; they are playing to gain experience and learn.

Thats the main difference, if the young team does well, Adams isn’t going to shoot them in the leg to stop them. 

[Andrew Amerk]

13 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Or keep Jack. No complaints from me if we do. Sure ‘solves” a big hole at center that his leaving would create

Keeping Jack for this would be ideal, but it doesn’t sound like something he is interested in. 

Sticking around for 3 more years to see how the rest of the team develops and MIGHT contend? Don’t think he is interested in that. A real leader and captain might, but not him.

[jsb]

11 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I can’t consider this a tank because we aren’t “tanking”

It may not fit your definition of a Tank but when you trade 1st line winger Hall & Team MVP Reinhart, your 2nd line C in Stall, your team leader in TOI in Risto plus Montour and actively looking to trade your best player, Captain and #1 C in Jack E. in the last 4 months and get nothing back but futures for all intents and purposes, what else can you call it??

[Doohicksie]

4 minutes ago, jsb said:

It may not fit your definition of a Tank but when you trade 1st line winger Hall & Team MVP Reinhart, your 2nd line C in Stall, your team leader in TOI in Risto plus Montour and actively looking to trade your best player, Captain and #1 C in Jack E. in the last 4 months and get nothing back but futures for all intents and purposes, what else can you call it??

Building for the future.

[SABRES 0311]

Buffalo hockey is such a sad thing.  Ownership and management should be embarrassed about the last 10 years and next couple of years.  

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Two #1 overall defensemen, Joki who's also a top young defender, Samuelsson, Bryson, this Hagg guy.... probably 4 of those are legit keepers going forward, plus add a guy here or there.

The biggest problem right now is the top line.  We don't really have one.  Oh, and goalie, we don't technically have one of those either.  But we don't know the return for Eichel yet, we don't know for sure if he's even going to be traded.

They're not going to compete for a Stanley Cub but if they are in the hunt for a playoff spot into March I'll be happy with the progress.  Yes, I'm optimistic.

 

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

I think we will see someone.... Casey, Dylan... emerge as a 1C.  Not the best 1C (we're trading him), but a creditable one.  They've been insulated.  They're ready.... I think Mitts in particular is ready to step up.  Cozens about a season or two behind.

Someone will emerge this year as THE 1C, but not A 1C because neither Mittelstadt nor Cozens is ready to become that.

This team, right now (presuming Eichel is also gone), has NHLers at the 2nd-4th lines and 2nd & 3rd pairing.  But they are LITERALLY lacking the entire starting lineup of 5 skaters & a goalie.  

There is no reason to believe there will be any UFAs brought in to fill any of those roles except the goalie.  And there is no reason to expect the kids to step into those roles adequately this season..  Forcing literally every single player to be playing 1 line higher than he's ready for is a great way to have a record challengingly bad team.

When it was obvious Adams was going to sell off the Big 3, we could at least hope that he'd be bringing in youthful players & some UFAs to give them 2 2nd lines & 2 2nd pairings.  2 Ullmarks as well.  That would still leave them a mid-80 point team in a best case but it might be entertaining.

Maybe this team ends up entertaining next season, but doubt that as well.

Is it '23-'24 yet?

[GoPuckYourself]

I just think we'll be bad be ause so many kids in the lineup developing. I don't think we're purposely trying to lose games but it wouldn't hurt to get a player like Wright next season. I can't handle losing if the team is at least competitive and you can see improvement. I know that's not the consensus in here as I know I'm sure most want to win now but I try and be realistic and just don't see a contender...yet.

[Andrew Amerk]

3 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I just think we'll be bad be ause so many kids in the lineup developing. I don't think we're purposely trying to lose games but it wouldn't hurt to get a player like Wright next season. I can't handle losing if the team is at least competitive and you can see improvement. I know that's not the consensus in here as I know I'm sure most want to win now but I try and be realistic and just don't see a contender...yet.

I gave up on winning a few seasons back. 

[Srw1525]

I think this time around though. They are headed in the right direction. Has to get worse before it gets better. I’m really hoping we turn this around. 

[GoPuckYourself]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

I gave up on winning a few seasons back. 

You don't think we have some good prospects? This goalie, Mittlestadt, Dylan Cozens, Jack Quinn, Owen Power, Rasmus Dahlin? That's a pretty nice young core and hopefully our HC can get the best out of them.

[thewookie1]

Hear me out, the reason the tank failed was two fold.

1. We destroyed our identity and connection to the past

2. Brought in the wrong players at the start

The first part is self explanatory; we traded away anyone and everyone that had ties to the pre-tank Sabres meaning the youngsters were left learning what it meant to be a NHLer from glorified mercenaries and each other. 

The latter reasoning is a bit more complex; imagine if a team is a large gymnasium with 23 people in it. A solid team will have 20+ people all in a group working together. Any stragglers either get left behind or eventually hitch themselves to the main group. Rentals at the deadline are much like most stragglers; they come into the room late and successful rentals are the ones who hitch themselves to the group. This also explains why huge name players are hit & miss at deadlines because they may not have the personality to merely hitch onto a group.

The year Eichel was drafted, we had a bunch of new happy faces all looking for a purpose and a route to take. Like giant stars TM brought in Gionta and Gorges to set up that Alpha Group meant to draw in all the others like stars draw in orbiting planets. However there was a major problem, Evander Kane, a known rebel to his old leadership group. Kane also emitted a gravitational pull, less than G&G but enough to interfere. Problem was that Eichel was almost immediately drawn to Kane; either via personalities or similar play styles, etc. Additionally, ROR was here and while not directly going in conflict with G&G, also emitted some pull on players such as the young Sam Reinhart. Slowly groups formed but nothing was strong enough. Kane was friends with Eichel who was friends with Reinhart who trained with ROR. G&G couldn't get through to Kane thus the young pair stayed out of the primary group. ROR's style and Kane's style directly oppose each other yet were somewhat tempered by G&G's overarching influence. Plus you likely had a boat load of mercenary stragglers bouncing around aimlessly. 

The more stragglers or groups you have, the less likely you are to have success. Winning cures divisions, certainly but losing opens those rifts and when all the groups go about trying to fix the problem in their own way; their collective row boat just spins and continues further into a vicious death spiral. It explains why for two straight years the Sabres had incredible starts to the year only to lose a few games and then lose control and fall into an abyss. 

 

 

My guess is that Adams is trying to reset the group settings; he tried last year by overturning a huge portion of the roster but even that didn't break the group setting so he's going nuclear. You can't have a group without a leader; and Eichel & Reinhart led the group so without them it will collapse. Adams is hoping the large number of young players left over will follow Okposo and thus form a singular group that will all row the same direction. That when times get rough, won't all go off on their own missions thus dooming their objective. That's how I see it.

[Andrew Amerk]

12 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

You don't think we have some good prospects? This goalie, Mittlestadt, Dylan Cozens, Jack Quinn, Owen Power, Rasmus Dahlin? That's a pretty nice young core and hopefully our HC can get the best out of them.

I like some of the prospects, aside from Mitts and Quinn. 

Regardless, I don’t see the team winning anytime soon. It’s already been 10 years, and trading your best players to start over means another 3-5 years. 

[Buffalonill]

I'm ready maybe the hockey gods are giving us a Redo to finally land a Sidney Crosby 

Only thing I'm worried about right now I hope they sign a vet center  because you can't put all this pressure on Casey and Cozens they will both bust 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Buffalonill

[Andrew Amerk]

1 minute ago, Buffalonill said:

I'm ready maybe the hockey gods are giving us a Redo to finally land a Sidney Crosby 

The hockey gods were angry about the team tanking to get McDavid. This happened when the Sabres played Arizona, and got booed for scoring. We were given Eichel for that. 

[Buffalonill]

1 hour ago, Andrew Amerk said:

The hockey gods were angry about the team tanking to get McDavid. This happened when the Sabres played Arizona, and got booed for scoring. We were given Eichel for that. 

At least we didn't get dylan Strome.

 

Anyways next years top 5 is pretty insane and the top 3 are franchise players so it's a win -win 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Buffalonill

[dudacek]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

All true except the development specialist head coach thing. Granato has 30 years of coaching experience. 

I think you took that as a slight, when it was not intended to be anything other that what was said: a coach both good at and willing to focus on the development. More below.

5 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

This feels different. 

These trades needed to be made, as it appears that these guys were very disgruntled, probably rightfully so.

I have to believe that the Sabres learned their lesson the last time.

The Sabres will be bad this coming season.  There is no need to tank to get a top pick.

It absolutely feels different. Tank is such a loaded word around here, but in this case it simply means short-term pain for long-term gain, dare I say “tank with dignity”

It’s an attempt to strip away the last vestiges of the failed Murray tank and this time do it properly with four key differences:

1) don’t gut the team without having a good farm system already in place. Mitts, Dahlin, Joki, Asplund, Tage, Bryson and to a lesser extent Samuelsson and Cozens already have pro experience under their belt and some sense of the NHL; they aren’t young kids being thrown to the wolves for the first time like Girgs and Risto were. UPL, Levi, Laaksonen, Johnson, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Rosen, Poltapov, Sardarsian, Kisakov etc. will be already in the system, but playing in the appropriate places and not moving here until they are ready.

2) bring in a coach focused on making our talented young players better, with a manager who holds him accountable for doing that, not a coach (Nolan) focused on trying to stay alive with an non-communicative GM who just wants you to lose, or a coach (Bylsma) with no development history tasked strictly to win for a GM with no larger vision or overall plan.

3) make sure your kids are kids with the proper mindset and you surround them with veterans capable of providing them with the leadership they need. No more Kanes and Bogosians mocking Gionta and Gorges to impressionable and maybe entitled Eichels and Reinharts.

4) once you’ve finished deconstructing the roster, try to win, be happy when you do and push for constant improvement. None of this two years of salted earth. Once Eichel is gone, every step becomes a step forward. If next year you end up finishing 10th like Ottawa did, that’s a good thing. You’re still getting another piece in the draft and that piece will be coming in to a better situation. It means you are further ahead on your path than you thought, the pieces you identified were the right ones, and you are on the right path.

Edited July 25, 2021 by dudacek