Sabres 3rd in League with $34M in Cap Space

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Yeah - cap space isn't that useful when you have no players to sign/extend.  Skinner's contract will suck more when you're trying to extend the young players on long term deals... and that is along the timeline of when you can probably buy him out if you need cap space.  

This.

If Eichel, Reinhart, & Ristolainen are all gone and the new core are all guys on ELC &/or 2nd contracts, then Skinner's contract becomes an annoyance rather than what it is now, which is a constraint.

And that annoyance ends up a cautionary tale of what NOT to do.

[dudacek]

Skinner got about a month or so on the top line with Sam and Victor under Donnie.

His numbers increased significantly, but even with good ice time and linemates, he was still under a 40 point pace, and he lost his spot to Bjork.

40 points is not good enough to stay on the top line, especially when you aren’t adding anything else.

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Skinner got about a month or so on the top line with Sam and Victor under Donnie.

His numbers increased significantly, but even with good ice time and linemates, he was still under a 40 point pace, and he lost his spot to Bjork.

40 points is not good enough to stay on the top line, especially when you aren’t adding anything else.

I agree and I want to add I think that is also what worries me about Olofsson. He's gonna add 40 points and not much else. 

I think when Adams talks about the team he is looking for those multidimensional guys that can do a lot of different things, like Quinn for example. 

[dudacek]

Jeff was never as good as his first 40 games fooled us into thinking, but he should not have fallen off the cliff this much.

I’ve done enough digging into Donnie’s past to hear him talk a couple times about talented young players needing to learn to use their teammates to make the next step.

Watching Jeff, it’s like he never had to take that step. I thought he tried some this year and it didn’t work for him.

His confidence is shot and his game is caught in between.

I think there is still a chance he can find himself - he’s not old and he’s willing to work - but it’s less than 50/50 and we’re talking 25 goals, not 40.

I disagree with those who chalk his play up to linemates, or deployment.

It’s on him to be better.

Edited July 9, 2021 by dudacek

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Tell me you don't know how to build a team without telling me you don't know how to build a team. Holy crap what a terrible idea. 

Tell me how much money that frees up for different players to be added.  Think buddy, think. You want a new  culture it'll be easier to build with Skinner not around. 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, SDS said:

It's opportunity cost. Assuming Sam would ever sign here again and a salary around $6M, that's $15M in cap space for two. Can the Sabres do better with $15M than Sam/Jeff?

Yes. Definitely yes. 

[sabresparaavida]

9 hours ago, SDS said:

It's opportunity cost. Assuming Sam would ever sign here again and a salary around $6M, that's $15M in cap space for two. Can the Sabres do better with $15M than Sam/Jeff?

Well, isn’t that kinda obvious? One of those contracts is reasonable, and the other is among the worst in the league. Of course you could do better with 9Mil than Skinner, but you’re not going to do significantly more with 6M than get Sam (outside of ELCs and players that blow up on a new contract)

[SDS]

14 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

Well, isn’t that kinda obvious? One of those contracts is reasonable, and the other is among the worst in the league. Of course you could do better with 9Mil than Skinner, but you’re not going to do significantly more with 6M than get Sam (outside of ELCs and players that blow up on a new contract)

I was just responding to the suggestion of taking Sam with Skinner looking through the lens of opportunity cost. The idea being you would have to provide a huge incentive to take on Skinner’s contract. 

[Curt]

14 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Tell me how much money that frees up for different players to be added.  Think buddy, think. You want a new  culture it'll be easier to build with Skinner not around. 

It depends on what else is out there in trade offers for Sam, but the cost of moving Skinner would be significant.  Sounds crazy, but Reinhart probably isn’t enough unless he agrees to immediately sign long term with his new team.

Not happening anyway, but it sure would provide the team a fresh start.

[JohnC]

13 hours ago, SDS said:

I was just responding to the suggestion of taking Sam with Skinner looking through the lens of opportunity cost. The idea being you would have to provide a huge incentive to take on Skinner’s contract. 

The problem is that the Sabres don't have much in the way of excess assets to make up for the deficits created by an induced Skinner trade. And the desire to move him are stymied by his NMC clause. The next best option is to put him in a better position to succeed knowing full well that he will not come close to living up to his contract. If he can return to his goal scoring form in the range of 25-28 goals then that would be a bonus for this team that hasn't received much production from him over the past two years. Can Granato be more successful in handling Skinner compared to the previous coach? He can't do worse. 

[DarthEbriate]

The key thing everyone's conversation on this thread is reaffirming is that $34M in cap space doesn't mean bantha poodoo if you don't know how to use it wisely.

We had plenty of cap space in the summer of 2019 as Moulson, Beaulieu, and Pominville came off the books. But then we (rightfully, because of injuries) stockpiled defensemen (Miller, Joker) to the extent we were trading Scandella for a 4th and demoting Bogosian, then extended Skinner to $3M beyond his worth, and signed MoJo to play center instead of wing... and Vesey, too!, and we were right back up against the cap to start the season. Then, we added Frolik for $4M once we had cap space from moving out Scandella. That's some excellent cap work there.

22 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It's pretty insane. Like drinking barcadi 151. 

If we trade Eichel, and Reinhart and Risto... that's roughly 21 million in additional cap room. We might struggle to reach the floor so the idea of GIVING away Reinhart to clear out Skinner is... something. 

 But GMTM taught us how to get to the cap floor easily: Meszaros for $4M.  🍺😇

Edited July 10, 2021 by DarthEbriate

[JohnC]

23 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It's pretty insane. Like drinking barcadi 151. 

If we trade Eichel, and Reinhart and Risto... that's roughly 21 million in additional cap room. We might struggle to reach the floor so the idea of GIVING away Reinhart to clear out Skinner is... something. 

If we trade the three players you listed we will be getting back players/contracts to fill the cap $$ sent out. It most likely won't be as much but it will be more than you are suggesting. The organization blundered signing Skinner to that costly and long-termed  contract. I don't see any team willing to take Skinner off our hands unless there are significant inducements added to the deal. As reflected in our last place showing this team doesn't have an adequate supply of assets to induce anyone to take him. And when discussing moving Skinner it shouldn't be forgotten that he has an iron-clad NMC that he controls. 

In addition, what organization would be foolish enough to trade for Reinhart (even giving up nothing) provided that they take Skinner and his burdensome contract when Reinhart who is an RFA this year will be an UFA the following year. That would make little sense.  

[Drag0nDan]

On 7/9/2021 at 12:16 PM, LGR4GM said:

I agree and I want to add I think that is also what worries me about Olofsson. He's gonna add 40 points and not much else. 

I think when Adams talks about the team he is looking for those multidimensional guys that can do a lot of different things, like Quinn for example. 

Best shot on the team, and can be made less of a liability with fewer 5x5 minutes on a 3rd or 4th energy style line.  If he's not on the top 6, and playing less than the defensive line - his production of like 15-20 PP points and 10-20 ES points doesn't look bad.  The team needs a real net front presence and someone to play along the wall where eichel lived to create a solid PP1 unit.

On 7/9/2021 at 11:13 AM, Taro T said:

This.

If Eichel, Reinhart, & Ristolainen are all gone and the new core are all guys on ELC &/or 2nd contracts, then Skinner's contract becomes an annoyance rather than what it is now, which is a constraint.

And that annoyance ends up a cautionary tale of what NOT to do.

Honestly to me its the same reason you just play okposo and send eakin down.  There is no buyout need since there is no inherent need for cap space.  

If you get down to the wire and need a bit of space you can free it up, but i'm not doing it just to do it.  Really depends what salary comes back in any of these trades too.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Drag0nDan

[sabresparaavida]

25 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Best shot on the team, and can be made less of a liability with fewer 5x5 minutes on a 3rd or 4th energy style line.  If he's not on the top 6, and playing less than the defensive line - his production of like 15-20 PP points and 10-20 ES points doesn't look bad.  The team needs a real net front presence and someone to play along the wall where eichel lived to create a solid PP1 unit.

Honestly to me its the same reason you just play okposo and send eakin down.  There is no buyout need since there is no inherent need for cap space.  

If you get down to the wire and need a bit of space you can free it up, but i'm not doing it just to do it.  Really depends what salary comes back in any of these trades too.

That might be a little hopeful to think he won’t make the top 6 on this year’s team.

[Drag0nDan]

12 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

That might be a little hopeful to think he won’t make the top 6 on this year’s team.

yeah... thats a fair statement.  Depends on FA and Sam honestly.  But for now it'd be him or Ruotsolainen i guess.  

[Thorner]

On 7/9/2021 at 10:58 AM, dudacek said:

Skinner got about a month or so on the top line with Sam and Victor under Donnie.

His numbers increased significantly, but even with good ice time and linemates, he was still under a 40 point pace, and he lost his spot to Bjork.

40 points is not good enough to stay on the top line, especially when you aren’t adding anything else.

He draws penalties at an elite rate, that's definitely a something else 

It needs to be said because it's not a trivial stat - it's a really key positive 

Not arguing for top line necessarily but "aren't adding anything else" wouldn't be accurate 

[Thorner]

https://www.tsn.ca/drawing-penalties-a-valuable-nhl-skill-1.192784

"If there’s an individual skill that really remains underutilized by analysts and fans right now, it’s the ability of a player to draw penalties for his respective team."

Pretty decent article by Yost

[sabrefanday1]

should the team not contact Tampa like yesterday to enquire about a bunch of guys they (Tampa) will have to move to get under next year's cap? Not sure how thrilled they'd be about going from a back-to-back cup winner to moving to the Sabres but Tampa sure has some guys that would look awfully good in the team's jersey.  

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, sabrefanday1 said:

should the team not contact Tampa like yesterday to enquire about a bunch of guys they (Tampa) will have to move to get under next year's cap? Not sure how thrilled they'd be about going from a back-to-back cup winner to moving to the Sabres but Tampa sure has some guys that would look awfully good in the team's jersey.  

Nah.  They'll just lie about injuries again next year and then suddenly everyone will be healthy in the playoffs.

[Pimlach]

On 7/8/2021 at 11:09 AM, bob_sauve28 said:

Offer Rask 2 year deal at 7 mill a season 

 

 

I really want a goalie but that’s a lot for a guy his age.  

[bob_sauve28]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I really want a goalie but that’s a lot for a guy his age.  

As good? 

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, bob_sauve28 said:

As good? 

Yes.  I can’t see him coming to Buffalo either.  By they time we turn this around (assuming we lose Jack and Sam) the 2 year deal is up. 
 

 

[klos1963]

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

He draws penalties at an elite rate, that's definitely a something else 

It needs to be said because it's not a trivial stat - it's a really key positive 

Not arguing for top line necessarily but "aren't adding anything else" wouldn't be accurate 

Skinner had a very solid career going until he came across a coach that didn't care for his style of play or whatever reason Ralph didn't like him.

It wouldn't be a shock for him to become a 25 goal scorer again, but unfortunately, he won't have Jack to help him.

[Taro T]

41 minutes ago, klos1963 said:

Skinner had a very solid career going until he came across a coach that didn't care for his style of play or whatever reason Ralph didn't like him.

It wouldn't be a shock for him to become a 25 goal scorer again, but unfortunately, he won't have Jack to help him.

Well, IMHO, we need to be hoping it was a 2-1/2 year recovery time from that knee injury.  Because don't see just getting away from Krueger to be enough to resurrect his career.  He just hasn't looked the same w/ the puck post injury as he did pre-injury.  Again, IMHO.