Organizational Depth: Pre and Post Jack

[Hoss]

This is a thread that assumes we are trading Jack Eichel, Samson Reinhart and Rasmus Ristolainen this offseason but does not include assumed returns. The intention here is to size up where we sit as we likely exit to Jack Eichel-era.

VETERANS ON THE ROSTER, PRE-JACK- this only includes players under control into 2015-16 but not free agent signings that offseason

Forwards: Tyler Ennis, Marcus Foligno, Brian Gionta, Cody Hodgson, Evander Kane, David Legwand, Cody McCormick, Jamie McGinn, Matt Moulson, Ryan O'Reilly

Defense: Zach Bogosian, Josh Gorges, Mike Weber

PROSPECTS IN THE SYSTEM, PRE-JACK

Forwards: Justin Bailey, Nic Baptiste, Nic Deslauriers, Hudson Fasching, Zemgus Girgensons, Connor Hurley, Johan Larsson, Samson Reinhart, Phil Varone

Defense: Brycen Martin, Jake McCabe, Mark Pysyk, Rasmus Ristolainen

 

VETERANS ON THE ROSTER, POST-JACK - this only includes players under control into 2021-22

Forwards: Anders Bjork, Cody Eakin, Zemgus Girgensons, Casey Mittelstadt, Kyle Okposo, Victor Olofsson, Jeff Skinner, Tage Thompson

Defense: Rasmus Dahlin, Henri Jokiharju, Colin Miller

PROSPECTS IN THE SYSTEM, POST-JACK

Forwards: Rasmus Asplund, Dylan Cozens, Aaron Huglen, JJ Peterka, Arttu Ruotsalainen, Jack Quinn

Defense: Will Borgen, Jacob Bryson, Ryan Johnson, Oskari Laaksonen, Mattias Samuelsson

 

So, how are we doing?

Edited June 14, 2021 by Hoss

[steveoath]

Gawd, the forward crop makes for depressing reading, eh?

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, steveoath said:

Gawd, the forward crop makes for depressing reading, eh?

Especially when you forget to mention Jack Quinn and JJ Peterka.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Last I looked Jack is still a Sabres.  Until he is traded and we know the return, the “Post-Jack” depth chart isn’t very helpful.  Also Sam is also still under control and therefore is still a Sabre until traded.

[LGR4GM]

28 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Especially when you forget to mention Jack Quinn and JJ Peterka.

Without them the forward prospects are pitiful. 

[Curt]

I don’t understand the point of this thread.

[DarthEbriate]

Pre-Jack veterans: UFAs at the end of the next season but you could add David Legwand and Jamie McGinn.

Pre-Jack prospects: Remove "Mikhail" as he was moved for O'Reilly -- I think you were already doing that. Phil Varone was a C, not D.

In addition to Larsson and Pysyk, we tendered C Tim Schaller and D Jerome (Gauthier-just-) Leduc that offseason, too.

Other prospects already in the pipeline (not signed like Rodrigues as UFA post-Jack-draft) who would eventually play with Amerks/Sabres: Will Carrier, Dan Catenacci, Eric Cornel, Vaclav Karabacek, Victor Olofsson, Sean Malone.     And a few that never signed: Gustav Possler, Max Willman, and Christopher Brown

[GASabresIUFAN]

20 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Without them the forward prospects are pitiful. 

I fully agree and part of that is the graduations of Cozens, R2, Asplund and Mitts in one season.  

It’s one of primary reasons I want Beniers in the draft, but at least JJP and Quinn are grade A prospects.

I’d also list Rousek and Murray as current prospects.

Edited June 14, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Hoss]

50 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Especially when you forget to mention Jack Quinn and JJ Peterka.

I’m really good at braining.

[Hoss]

5 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Pre-Jack veterans: UFAs at the end of the next season but you could add David Legwand and Jamie McGinn.

Pre-Jack prospects: Remove "Mikhail" as he was moved for O'Reilly -- I think you were already doing that. Phil Varone was a C, not D.

In addition to Larsson and Pysyk, we tendered C Tim Schaller and D Jerome (Gauthier-just-) Leduc that offseason, too.

Other prospects already in the pipeline (not signed like Rodrigues as UFA post-Jack-draft) who would eventually play with Amerks/Sabres: Will Carrier, Dan Catenacci, Eric Cornel, Vaclav Karabacek, Victor Olofsson, Sean Malone.     And a few that never signed: Gustav Possler, Max Willman, and Christopher Brown

Again, I’m really good at braining. I changed directions on who I did and did not want to consider a few times which is why I half removed Grigorenko but I fully removed him now. Those other names were never really prospects worth noting. A guy like Olofsson I didn’t really include pre-Jack because we didn’t really know much about him or consider him a legit prospect at that point. Tried focusing on guys that are frequently in conversations among the sane.

Decent chance a guy or two in our current prospect pool could be a guy three/four years from now that we never thought would sniff the NHL makes their way toward the roster.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Hoss

[Hoss]

8 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t understand the point of this thread.

The pre-Jack era was dominated by plans to land Jack and the team built around him. Now, we’re heading toward the post-Jack era where the focus becomes what we’re left with. Take it from there.

[Curt]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

The pre-Jack era was dominated by plans to land Jack and the team built around him. Now, we’re heading toward the post-Jack era where the focus becomes what we’re left with. Take it from there.

I guess I don’t understand the point of making that comparison.  Especially when purposely removing any assets gained from a Eichel, Reinhart, or Risto trade.

The team is where it is today.  Why does it matter who they had under contract 6 years ago?

[Hoss]

Just now, Curt said:

I guess I don’t understand the point of making that comparison.  Especially when purposely removing any assets gained from a Eichel, Reinhart, or Risto trade.

The team is where it is today.  Why does it matter who they had under contract 6 years ago?

What is the point of anything we do on here, Curt?

[Curt]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

What is the point of anything we do on here, Curt?

Good question.  I’ll leave you to kill time in peace.

[PromoTheRobot]

17 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don’t understand the point of this thread.

Self-flagellation.

[DarthEbriate]

20 minutes ago, Hoss said:

The pre-Jack era was dominated by plans to land Jack and the team built around him. Now, we’re heading toward the post-Jack era where the focus becomes what we’re left with. Take it from there.

This is hypothetical magic of moving Jack, Sam, and Rasmus the Elder. GMTM (pre-) loaded up on heavy forwards, a veteran D-corps (sort of?), and drafted/acquired big Swedish guys to play goal. GM JBot was alllll about puck-moving D. He even traded a 6th round pick from 2018 to take a lower 6th round pick in 2019 otherwise he'd probably have drafted another PMD and he didn't want to look silly. (Fun way to think of it: JBot traded a 5th, 6th, and 7th to trade UP to draft Cederqvist.) -- edit: I really wish Cederqvist was a PMD. I would laugh more.

14 minutes ago, Hoss said:

What is the point of anything we do on here, Curt?

You could look at this thread as --- what kind of team is GM Sheevyn trying to build if he trades Jack/Sam/Risto. What's already here that could be type-of-team-A or play-style-B, and how would that impact the types of players GM Sheevyn would attempt to acquire in said trades. Based on his single five-player draft, Hall experiment, and in-season pickups like Caggiula and Bjork, I don't know we have enough to go on as to what he wants to build. All he's claimed is to try to get players who want to be here (as if a draft pick or a waiver/trade pickup has much of a choice) and play the game the right way, which means... they don't coast or take shifts off? Every GM says that.

Edited June 14, 2021 by DarthEbriate

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, Hoss said:

David Legwand

David Legwand was not a prospect when he was with the Sabres.  He was in his mid-30s, on the last stop of his 4-team NHL career.  He was The First Nashville Predator in 1998.  That was the year we drafted Dmitri Kalinin and Andrew Peters.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Doohickie

[Doohicksie]

41 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Self-flagellation.

That's the point of this whole forum.

[Hoss]

9 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

David Legwand was not a prospect when he was with the Sabres.  He was in his mid-30s, on the last stop of his 4-team NHL career.  He was The First Nashville Predator in 1998.  That was the year we drafted Dmitri Kalinin and Andrew Peters.

No *****. It was an obvious oversight. I’ve lost a step.

[Broken Ankles]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

The pre-Jack era was dominated by plans to land Jack and the team built around him. Now, we’re heading toward the post-Jack era where the focus becomes what we’re left with. Take it from there.

  Another factor to consider is Cap Space.  In the pre-Jack there was some high priced AAV's and by the end of 2015, TM rang up an impressive Cap hit of $69.5M against a ceiling of $73M.   Leaving only 4% cap space for 2016.    Conversely, if we assume Risto, Jack and Sam are not included in the Vet's moving forward, our projected Cap plummets to $33.3M.   So while on paper there appears to be more strength in pre vs post, Anders Bjork,  Zemgus Girgensons, Casey Mittelstadt, Victor Olofsson,  and Tage Thompson along with the prospect of what Jack, Sam and Risto could return coupled with $49.7M in cap space (roughly 60%) changes the narrative.  And this space include albatross contracts of Skinner and KO. 

[Hoss]

26 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

  Another factor to consider is Cap Space.  In the pre-Jack there was some high priced AAV's and by the end of 2015, TM rang up an impressive Cap hit of $69.5M against a ceiling of $73M.   Leaving only 4% cap space for 2016.    Conversely, if we assume Risto, Jack and Sam are not included in the Vet's moving forward, our projected Cap plummets to $33.3M.   So while on paper there appears to be more strength in pre vs post, Anders Bjork,  Zemgus Girgensons, Casey Mittelstadt, Victor Olofsson,  and Tage Thompson along with the prospect of what Jack, Sam and Risto could return coupled with $49.7M in cap space (roughly 60%) changes the narrative.  And this space include albatross contracts of Skinner and KO. 

I considered diving a bit deeper and doing cap space and other factors but I ran out of time.

[nfreeman]

12 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I considered diving a bit deeper and doing cap space and other factors but I ran out of time.

Good honest admission although perhaps a tactical blunder.  

[Hoss]

34 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Good honest admission although perhaps a tactical blunder.  

Thankfully we’ve got good posters that can pick up my slack lol

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

Conversely, if we assume Risto, Jack and Sam are not included in the Vet's moving forward, our projected Cap plummets to $33.3M.

You assume, of course, that when we trade Jack we're not retaining any salary.........

 

 

 

 

/ducks

[GASabresIUFAN]

The cap with Jack, Sam, and Risto traded and Miller lost to expansion is as follows

Forwards (9):  Skinner, KO, VO, Eakin, Girgensons, Bjork, Tage, Cozens, and R2 for 27.325.  RFAs: Mitts and Asplund  UFAs who could return: Sheahan, Caggiula

Defense (1): Bryson 900K  RFAs: Dahlin, Jokiharju and Borgen  UFAs who could return: McCabe

Goaltenders (0): None  UFAs who could return: Ullmark

Total: 10 players for $28.225 (plus 800K to CoHo)

Near Ready Prospects

Forwards: Quinn (925K), JJP (900K), Weissbach (842.5K)

Defense: Samuelsson (925K), Laaksonen (853K) and Johnson (unsigned)

Goaltending: UPL (780K) 

Talk about a clean slate if we had competent management.

I'm not going to project the return for any of the traded players but for Jack and Reinhart may guess is 3 pieces each consisting of a draft pick, a near ready or young player and a cap dump (hopefully a semi productive vet with 1 year left on his deal).  

Without the 4 guys and assuming we retain the RFAs mentioned we look something like this

Forwards

Skinner ???? VO

R2 Mitts Thompson

Asplund Cozens Bjork

Girgensons Eakin KO

Defense

Dahlin Jokiharju

?????  ??????

Bryson Borgen

Goaltending

?????  ?????