Sabres' Option: William Eklund

[LGR4GM]

 

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

FYI:  On my composite list Beniers and Eklund now have the exact same score from the 10 "final" rankings list I have on my spreadsheet.  They are tied for second behind Power.  

 

 

[LGR4GM]

William Eklund interview, in English, can be found in the video here:

https://hockeysverige.se/2021/07/07/tv-william-eklund-infor-nhl-draften-2021

[rakish]

It's me, @Buffalonill and Guenther's Mom vs the rest of you.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, rakish said:

It's me, @Buffalonill and Guenther's Mom vs the rest of you.

If Guenther had done 2.0ppg in even a 24 game sample I might believe more in him. He didn't crack my top 5... which surprised me actually. 

[PerreaultForever]

I suppose this all comes down to what style/type of player the Sabres want. At this point I'm still trying to figure out what type of team this management group plans to try to ice. Mixed messages. The draft might make it clearer. 

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I suppose this all comes down to what style/type of player the Sabres want. At this point I'm still trying to figure out what type of team this management group plans to try to ice. Mixed messages. The draft might make it clearer. 

A relentless team. Not bullies, but fast, in your face, together, and highly competitive. 

Mike Peca. 

I still think they dearly love Beniers as the poster child for this and the fact his name has drifted to the backwaters of the rumour mill is deliberate. It’s why I think Comtois and 3OA will be Sabres within a few weeks.

That said, Eklund is also of that mold, and more skilled.

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, rakish said:

It's me, @Buffalonill and Guenther's Mom vs the rest of you.

[SDS]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

A relentless team. Not bullies, but fast, in your face, together, and highly competitive. 

Mike Peca. 

I still think they dearly love Beniers as the poster child for this and the fact his name has drifted to the backwaters of the rumour mill is deliberate. It’s why I think Comtois and 3OA will be Sabres within a few weeks.

That said, Eklund is also of that mold, and more skilled.

Honestly, what are the choices?

every team wants the same thing. No one says they don’t wanna be too fast. No one says they want to be unskilled. No one says they want to be soft. Every team wants the same things, but some teams make do with what they have - even if they don’t want to.

[Curt]

14 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I suppose this all comes down to what style/type of player the Sabres want. At this point I'm still trying to figure out what type of team this management group plans to try to ice. Mixed messages. The draft might make it clearer. 

I’m just curious, what are the mixed messages that you have perceived?

I thought they’ve been fairly consistent in their messaging.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Curt said:

I’m just curious, what are the mixed messages that you have perceived?

I thought they’ve been fairly consistent in their messaging.

I'd argue they've been shockingly specific. Even, ham-handed. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

A relentless team. Not bullies, but fast, in your face, together, and highly competitive. 

Mike Peca. 

I'm with you on that, but is that it? I'm not sure. Especially hiring these Pittsburgh guys. 

2 hours ago, Curt said:

I’m just curious, what are the mixed messages that you have perceived?

I thought they’ve been fairly consistent in their messaging.

I think the hiring of the guys from Pittsburgh is opposite to what KA says. Also not sure if what we were doing under Granato end of the season fits with what KA is saying. I need to see next year's roster and who they draft for a better idea. 

[LGR4GM]

39 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm with you on that, but is that it? I'm not sure. Especially hiring these Pittsburgh guys. 

I think the hiring of the guys from Pittsburgh is opposite to what KA says. Also not sure if what we were doing under Granato end of the season fits with what KA is saying. I need to see next year's roster and who they draft for a better idea. 

Lol what? Seriously, wtf? It's so in line with him idk how anyone could reach this conclusion

[Curt]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think the hiring of the guys from Pittsburgh is opposite to what KA says. Also not sure if what we were doing under Granato end of the season fits with what KA is saying. I need to see next year's roster and who they draft for a better idea. 

Your reply leaves me with  more questions than answers.

What about the hiring of Karmanos and now Ventura is the opposite of what Adams has said?

Also, what about Granato (from what we’ve seen so far) is inconsistent with what Adams has said?

My main reason for pressing on this a bit is that I have come away with the exact opposite viewpoint regarding Karmanos and Ventura.  From day one, Adams has consistently expressed a strong desire to incorporate analytics into the scouting processes.  I see these hires as logical, clear steps down that previously expressed path.  I’m curious what you are seeing that is so different from what I see.

[dudacek]

Could be as simple as:

Adams talks meat-and-potatoes, all-for-one hockey that evokes hope for fans that like a Brian Burke/Boston Bruin approach to hockey. Sam Ventura and the PIttsburgh Penguins do not.

I think the organization you more properly should be looking to is the one that hoisted the Stanley Cup last night: one that on the ice never gives an inch, and off the ice unearths value in places where others fail to look.

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Could be as simple as:

Adams talks meat-and-potatoes, all-for-one hockey that evokes hope for fans that like a Brian Burke/Boston Bruin approach to hockey. Sam Ventura and the PIttsburgh Penguins do not.

I think the organization you more properly should be looking to is the one that hoisted the Stanley Cup last night: one that on the ice never gives an inch, and off the ice unearths value in places where others fail to look.

Step 1: trade the only player we have that could crack their top 6 😉

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Curt said:

Your reply leaves me with  more questions than answers.

What about the hiring of Karmanos and now Ventura is the opposite of what Adams has said?

Also, what about Granato (from what we’ve seen so far) is inconsistent with what Adams has said?

My main reason for pressing on this a bit is that I have come away with the exact opposite viewpoint regarding Karmanos and Ventura.  From day one, Adams has consistently expressed a strong desire to incorporate analytics into the scouting processes.  I see these hires as logical, clear steps down that previously expressed path.  I’m curious what you are seeing that is so different from what I see.

Fair enough, and I imagine there's very little way of showing any view as factual until it actually happens, but briefly, my thoughts go along these lines.

Karmanos and Ventura worked for Pittsburgh. Pitt success is based on Crosby and to a lesser extent Malkin and the team has generally been built for speed and offense and when it has failed in the playoffs (often) they usually come up short in the grit, toughness and defensive aspects of the game. They tried to get a little more balanced lately (and now shifted with the change in management) mostly because Crosby is aging, but the Pittsburgh model does not seem to be what Adams is talking about.

Granato's vision is harder to discern as the conditions and sample size were small, but in general his focus seemed to be on generating offense and letting the kids loose so to speak. More of an aggressive perhaps Euro style but definitely not something like Montreal or maybe the NYI were showing in these playoffs. It was a little like Housley hockey imo. It might be an improvement for these players from Kreuger hockey but I'm not sure if it fits with what Adams is saying . It does seem to be in line with the Pittsburgh model, but they have Crosby, and if we're trading Eichel, I'm not sure it's the right idea.

Now on analytics, that's a big discussion and I don't really want to get into it. Anything I say will lead to the analytic believers getting all riled up and it's not worth the argument. In simplest terms imo heavy analytic teams tend to be like Toronto, and that's a path I don't want to follow, I'd rather be Montreal. 

For me, analytics are one tool but not the be all and end all. Roughly I'm a 1/3 1/3 1/3 guy. 1/3 analytics, 1/3 eye test on ice, 1/3 character and personality. The Sabres, it seems to me are putting most everything into that first third and the last third doesn't seem to concern them at all in their hires even though Adams is talking about it. It seems disconnected to me (to use Eichel's big word :)) but when I see who they draft and sign I will be able to make up my mind better.

Hope that clears it up but likely it'll annoy someone else who will consider my views crazy or out dated 🙂

 

[Rasmus_]

Pick him first overall.  Trade Eichel to Anaheim for #3, and see who is left of Power, Guenther, Edvinsson, etc. 

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Fair enough, and I imagine there's very little way of showing any view as factual until it actually happens, but briefly, my thoughts go along these lines.

Karmanos and Ventura worked for Pittsburgh. Pitt success is based on Crosby and to a lesser extent Malkin and the team has generally been built for speed and offense and when it has failed in the playoffs (often) they usually come up short in the grit, toughness and defensive aspects of the game. They tried to get a little more balanced lately (and now shifted with the change in management) mostly because Crosby is aging, but the Pittsburgh model does not seem to be what Adams is talking about.

Granato's vision is harder to discern as the conditions and sample size were small, but in general his focus seemed to be on generating offense and letting the kids loose so to speak. More of an aggressive perhaps Euro style but definitely not something like Montreal or maybe the NYI were showing in these playoffs. It was a little like Housley hockey imo. It might be an improvement for these players from Kreuger hockey but I'm not sure if it fits with what Adams is saying . It does seem to be in line with the Pittsburgh model, but they have Crosby, and if we're trading Eichel, I'm not sure it's the right idea.

Now on analytics, that's a big discussion and I don't really want to get into it. Anything I say will lead to the analytic believers getting all riled up and it's not worth the argument. In simplest terms imo heavy analytic teams tend to be like Toronto, and that's a path I don't want to follow, I'd rather be Montreal. 

For me, analytics are one tool but not the be all and end all. Roughly I'm a 1/3 1/3 1/3 guy. 1/3 analytics, 1/3 eye test on ice, 1/3 character and personality. The Sabres, it seems to me are putting most everything into that first third and the last third doesn't seem to concern them at all in their hires even though Adams is talking about it. It seems disconnected to me (to use Eichel's big word :)) but when I see who they draft and sign I will be able to make up my mind better.

Hope that clears it up but likely it'll annoy someone else who will consider my views crazy or out dated 🙂

 

I am fairly certain a big plus with Jack Quinn was his leadership and character. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I am fairly certain a big plus with Jack Quinn was his leadership and character. 

Maybe. I honestly haven't seen enough on him or know enough about him to decide. It was not a pick I considered at the time and need to see him at the NHL level. Will he be ready this coming season? 

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Maybe. I honestly haven't seen enough on him or know enough about him to decide. It was not a pick I considered at the time and need to see him at the NHL level. Will he be ready this coming season? 

No, he should be in the AHL to start this season.

[nfreeman]

FWIW, the Athletic's mock draft had Eklund falling to #9.

[spndnchz]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

FWIW, the Athletic's mock draft had Eklund falling to #9.

(E9)

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No, he should be in the AHL to start this season.

That's what I would figure. I guess we see if he becomes a leader down there. 

[Curt]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Fair enough, and I imagine there's very little way of showing any view as factual until it actually happens, but briefly, my thoughts go along these lines.

Karmanos and Ventura worked for Pittsburgh. Pitt success is based on Crosby and to a lesser extent Malkin and the team has generally been built for speed and offense and when it has failed in the playoffs (often) they usually come up short in the grit, toughness and defensive aspects of the game. They tried to get a little more balanced lately (and now shifted with the change in management) mostly because Crosby is aging, but the Pittsburgh model does not seem to be what Adams is talking about.

Granato's vision is harder to discern as the conditions and sample size were small, but in general his focus seemed to be on generating offense and letting the kids loose so to speak. More of an aggressive perhaps Euro style but definitely not something like Montreal or maybe the NYI were showing in these playoffs. It was a little like Housley hockey imo. It might be an improvement for these players from Kreuger hockey but I'm not sure if it fits with what Adams is saying . It does seem to be in line with the Pittsburgh model, but they have Crosby, and if we're trading Eichel, I'm not sure it's the right idea.

Now on analytics, that's a big discussion and I don't really want to get into it. Anything I say will lead to the analytic believers getting all riled up and it's not worth the argument. In simplest terms imo heavy analytic teams tend to be like Toronto, and that's a path I don't want to follow, I'd rather be Montreal. 

For me, analytics are one tool but not the be all and end all. Roughly I'm a 1/3 1/3 1/3 guy. 1/3 analytics, 1/3 eye test on ice, 1/3 character and personality. The Sabres, it seems to me are putting most everything into that first third and the last third doesn't seem to concern them at all in their hires even though Adams is talking about it. It seems disconnected to me (to use Eichel's big word :)) but when I see who they draft and sign I will be able to make up my mind better.

Hope that clears it up but likely it'll annoy someone else who will consider my views crazy or out dated 🙂

 

We’ll try not to get into the analytics weeds.

Honestly, a majority of the players on the Pitt cup winning teams were acquired by the Shero regime.  When Rutherford/Karmanos/and a little later Ventura came on they just tweaked the roster a little.  Main moves were:

Out: Jussi Jokinen, James Neal, Brandon Sutter, Pascal Dupuis, Matt Niskanen

In: Hornqvist, Perron, Kessel, Cullen, Bonino, Haglin, Trevor Daley

It’s not really all speed/skill acquisitions.

Also, just because the team in Pittsburgh looked a certain way, doesn’t mean that the team in Buffalo will be the same, even with some of the same people in charge.

To me, what’s not clear is if Adams is going to go after a bigger, rougher team or a smaller, faster team.  He has generally seemed to say that he wants a gritty, skilled, and tenacious/hard working team.  I’m not convinced that the team he ends up building will be notably big or small, or offense or defense focused.  I don’t think it’s his primary focus.  I think he wants good players who have the mindset he is looking for.

I don’t really know what to make of Granato yet.  Is he always going to lean towards offense, or is that just what he thinks the team needed right away.  He is kind of a wild card for me.  As long as he is able to keep the young guys developing, I’m not concerned by much else right now.  We’ll see.

Analytics, For me, I don’t even want to talk about it as a stand alone entity, or have any employees with “Analytics” in their job title.  For me it’s just part of scouting.  Identify things that you want from your players, then using statistics beyond the basic box score stuff to help identify players who can do what you are looking for.

I don’t think you should associate analytics so heavily with a soft, offense first (only?) team.  You may be right about Toronto specifically, but they are hardly the only team investing heavily in using “analytics”.  Carolina, LA, NJ, Islanders, and now Seattle, all are deep into it, and I’m probably missing several more.  It doesn’t inherently lead to one particular style of team.  It all depends on what characteristics you are targeting and prioritizing in players.

I can understand what you mean now with disconnect between Adams words on character/mentality and the player acquisitions so far.  Probably also in large part due to how easily the team seemed to whither and give up last season?  Personally, I’m willing to buy that Krueger drove a lot of the player acquisitions last offseason and this offseason is the first time that Adams has actually gotten the green light from ownership to carry out his own in depth plans.  From my point of view, the Karmanos and Ventura hires very much align with the type of front office that Adams has said he wants.  Now we will have to see if his team follows through and acquires the types of players that Adams has seemed to say he wants. I think over the next 14 months we will get a good read on this.

If I can make an admission, at one point I felt that most of your views were very outdated, annoying and sometimes crazy.  I’ve come around some.  Now I think only a few of your views are outdated, annoying and crazy!  😉

Edited July 9, 2021 by Curt

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

 

I don’t think you should associate analytics so heavily with a soft, offense first (only?) team.  You may be right about Toronto specifically, but they are hardly the only team investing heavily in using “analytics”.  Carolina, LA, NJ, Islanders, and now Seattle, all are deep into it, and I’m probably missing several more.  It doesn’t inherently lead to one particular style of team.  It all depends on what characteristics you are targeting and prioritizing in players.

I can understand what you mean now with disconnect between Adams words on character/mentality and the player acquisitions so far.  Probably also in large part due to how easily the team seemed to whither and give up last season?  Personally, I’m willing to buy that Krueger drove a lot of the player acquisitions last offseason and this offseason is the first time that Adams has actually gotten the green light from ownership to carry out his own in depth plans.  From my point of view, the Karmanos and Ventura hires very much align with the type of front office that Adams has said he wants.  Now we will have to see if his team follows through and acquires the types of players that Adams has seemed to say he wants.

Tampa is heavily involved with analytics. Florida since Bill Zito took over,  Colorado and Vegas. 
 

Your Krueger Assessment is spot on