PSE Begins Discussions on Future of the Stadium and Arena Projects

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, SDS said:

Privately, that may be the goal of the NFL. Buffalo routinely embarrasses itself every year.

It must be because of all that disgusting over-cheesed pizza that the fans are eating.

[nfreeman]

There is no way that NYS is going to contribute $750MM to a new football stadium.  

[PromoTheRobot]

4 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Im unsure how’d they build a new arena since the Harbor Center connects to the present one. I could seriously see retrofits on both the Bills and Sabres homes however. Modernize Rich/Ralph Wilson/ etc Stadium with a retractable roof. As for the arena they could remodel the whole interior and potentially move the Sabres front office into a newer built add on.

That would be next to impossible to do. And if you could it would cost more than a new downtown dome. Consider how wide that stadium is. You can't just drop a roof on it. And why would you sink that kind of money into a 50-year old-plus stadium?

Edited May 26, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[PromoTheRobot]

4 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

I have no inside info, but i still believe the Bills new stadium will end up in the arena area, and will have a fixed roof dome.  
 

The KBC needs a major renovation, but keep in mind that there is only so much that can be done within the existing footprint...but the more money thrown at it, the better the end product will be...and it does need a LOT of money dedicated to it. 

What they did in Cleveland might be the template.

They built out the walls of Quicken Loan/Rocket Mortgage arena and expanded the concourses.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Just don't build a freakin' dome. There aren't enough snow games any more as it is. 

It will definitely have a roof.

[PerreaultForever]

11 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

It will definitely have a roof.

Football just gets worse and worse. Just let them play video games and call the whole thing off. 

[thewookie1]

47 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

That would be next to impossible to do. And if you could it would cost more than a new downtown dome. Consider how wide that stadium is. You can't just drop a roof on it. And why would you sink that kind of money into a 50-year old-plus stadium?

Technically all you would do is build around the stadium. 

 

Also the Bears did a retrofit where they stripped it down to the studs and then rebuilt it. They could do the same thing only adding size to the concourses thus adding enough surface area to easily support a roof.

 

Also, I personally would leave the roof open for snow and only close it for rain 🙂

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

The land isn't really the issue, procurement for a project of this size has more than enough areas, the Buffalo/Niagara region hasn't had a major sprawl buildout....yet.

The real issue will be state and local funding. Personally, I believe a combined mega facility is in order, state of the art, cutting edge. And I believe it should reap benefits of a Federal infrastructure funding, to merge public transportation with it.

Then put in high speed rail to Toronto for the mega facility. Make Buffalo an international "port" again.

[LGR4GM]

11 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

What they did in Cleveland might be the template.

They built out the walls of Quicken Loan/Rocket Mortgage arena and expanded the concourses.

The problem isn't the concourses. It is the seating and rest of the stadium. 

11 hours ago, nfreeman said:

There is no way that NYS is going to contribute $750MM to a new football stadium.  

Good. They shouldn't. If they haven't built a new border bridge they sure shouldn't be building a billionaire's pleasure palace for his billion dollar sports league. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by LGR4GM

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Then put in high speed rail to Toronto for the mega facility. Make Buffalo an international "port" again.

Agreed. I am very pro high speed rail, both cargo and passenger, nationwide. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Then put in high speed rail to Toronto for the mega facility. Make Buffalo an international "port" again.

How are you defining "high speed rail?"  And why high speed vs regular passenger rail?

Buffalo (or NF) to TO doesn't particularly seem to be an ideal candidate.  While the run is quite flat, it is only ~90 miles long with a MAJOR turn 2/3's of the way through the run.  So, you really aren't going to get up to 200mph for much of the trip at all and the few minutes you shave off regular rail likely doesn't make it cost effective to spend the extra $B's to do so.

Further, while there is extensive public transportation in downtown TO, what is the incentive for Canadians leaving their cars at home on this side of the Niagara?

Ra-cha-cha already spectacularly failed with the "fast ferry."  This seems set to fail more spectacularly due to the cost.

[Eleven]

33 minutes ago, Taro T said:

How are you defining "high speed rail?"  And why high speed vs regular passenger rail?

Buffalo (or NF) to TO doesn't particularly seem to be an ideal candidate.  While the run is quite flat, it is only ~90 miles long with a MAJOR turn 2/3's of the way through the run.  So, you really aren't going to get up to 200mph for much of the trip at all and the few minutes you shave off regular rail likely doesn't make it cost effective to spend the extra $B's to do so.

Further, while there is extensive public transportation in downtown TO, what is the incentive for Canadians leaving their cars at home on this side of the Niagara?

Ra-cha-cha already spectacularly failed with the "fast ferry."  This seems set to fail more spectacularly due to the cost.

The existing rail between Buffalo and Toronto is fine.  By far, the biggest holdup is the border.  The train is in motion for only about an hour and a half.  It's clearing customs and immigration that makes the trip last nearly four hours.

[LGR4GM]

37 minutes ago, Taro T said:

How are you defining "high speed rail?"  And why high speed vs regular passenger rail?

Buffalo (or NF) to TO doesn't particularly seem to be an ideal candidate.  While the run is quite flat, it is only ~90 miles long with a MAJOR turn 2/3's of the way through the run.  So, you really aren't going to get up to 200mph for much of the trip at all and the few minutes you shave off regular rail likely doesn't make it cost effective to spend the extra $B's to do so.

Further, while there is extensive public transportation in downtown TO, what is the incentive for Canadians leaving their cars at home on this side of the Niagara?

Ra-cha-cha already spectacularly failed with the "fast ferry."  This seems set to fail more spectacularly due to the cost.

Cargo. High speed cargo rail would be the most useful. As for the car issue on a passenger line, I think if Buffalo was a hub to other places such as Pittsburgh, Cleveland, NYC that ppl would use it. 

High speed is anything over 120mph or 195km for our northern friends. 

5 minutes ago, Eleven said:

The existing rail between Buffalo and Toronto is fine.  By far, the biggest holdup is the border.  The train is in motion for only about an hour and a half.  It's clearing customs and immigration that makes the trip last nearly four hours.

You treat it like a plane terminal where you clear customs after you disembark or before you embark depending on your preference. 

[nfreeman]

50 minutes ago, Taro T said:

How are you defining "high speed rail?"  And why high speed vs regular passenger rail?

Buffalo (or NF) to TO doesn't particularly seem to be an ideal candidate.  While the run is quite flat, it is only ~90 miles long with a MAJOR turn 2/3's of the way through the run.  So, you really aren't going to get up to 200mph for much of the trip at all and the few minutes you shave off regular rail likely doesn't make it cost effective to spend the extra $B's to do so.

Further, while there is extensive public transportation in downtown TO, what is the incentive for Canadians leaving their cars at home on this side of the Niagara?

Ra-cha-cha already spectacularly failed with the "fast ferry."  This seems set to fail more spectacularly due to the cost.

Did you ever take that fast ferry?  As someone who travels periodically from NYC to Toronto, it would’ve been perfect for my family and me.  

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Cargo. High speed cargo rail would be the most useful. As for the car issue on a passenger line, I think if Buffalo was a hub to other places such as Pittsburgh, Cleveland, NYC that ppl would use it. 

High speed is anything over 120mph or 195km for our northern friends. 

You treat it like a plane terminal where you clear customs after you disembark or before you embark depending on your preference. 

You want to spend $B's to shave at absolute most, 1-1/2 hours, and more likely 20 minutes, out of a trip?

There are situations where high speed rail could be viable.  A Buffalo to TO run has to be 1,000th or so on that list IMHO.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

You want to spend $B's to shave at absolute most, 1-1/2 hours, and more likely 20 minutes, out of a trip?

There are situations where high speed rail could be viable.  A Buffalo to TO run has to be 1,000th or so on that list IMHO.

Because you are just looking at 1 part. I suggested other parts, such as NYC to Buffalo. If you could take it from NYC to Buffalo, go through customs and go to Toronto, lots of ppl would. Again, cargo is an important factor. 

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Because you are just looking at 1 part. I suggested other parts, such as NYC to Buffalo. If you could take it from NYC to Buffalo, go through customs and go to Toronto, lots of ppl would. Again, cargo is an important factor. 

I used to take the train a lot.  As in, the stationmaster knew me by name.  Trains don't work like planes.  That train from NYC is going to stop, at the very least, in Westchester, Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and Toronto.  There's not an opportunity to get up to speed.  Also, there's not an easy way to control who gets on and off, and what packages are loaded and unloaded, for customs/immigration/security purposes, without completely compromising what makes train travel convenient.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

Did you ever take that fast ferry?  As someone who travels periodically from NYC to Toronto, it would’ve been perfect for my family and me.  

Wanted to, but never got the chance.  Thing only ran a few months on a couple of occasions & then. was shut down for good.

And, it might have been fun for you & your family to take it, but staying on the Thruway & driving directly to TO would've been quicker for you.

Heck, even starting right from the dock, you could drive from Ra-cha-cha to TO almost as quickly as you could sail.  Starting out from the Thruway; the ferry wasn't even close to as quick a trip.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Because you are just looking at 1 part. I suggested other parts, such as NYC to Buffalo. If you could take it from NYC to Buffalo, go through customs and go to Toronto, lots of ppl would. Again, cargo is an important factor. 

Had a reply planned, but @Eleven already covered it.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I used to take the train a lot.  As in, the stationmaster knew me by name.  Trains don't work like planes.  That train from NYC is going to stop, at the very least, in Westchester, Albany, Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Niagara Falls, and Toronto.  There's not an opportunity to get up to speed.  Also, there's not an easy way to control who gets on and off, and what packages are loaded and unloaded, for customs/immigration/security purposes, without completely compromising what makes train travel convenient.

It does not have to. You stop in Albany and Buffalo. That's all you do and ppl deal with it. This isn't normal rail service AND AGAIN cargo and freight are being completely ignored in both of your responses. Sure it might not make sense to go Toronto to Buffalo but you are making a hub in Buffalo to connect it to other places like NYC and Pittsburgh. 

[Hank]

I hope Buffalo gets a new downtown dome stadium and arena. It absolutely should be at least 50% funded by the taxpayers. 

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

I hope Buffalo gets a new downtown dome stadium and arena. It absolutely should be at least 50% funded by the taxpayers. 

Says someone who won't be paying ANY of those taxes. 

[LGR4GM]

Can we at least have a new bridge and border crossing before we drop 750million on 10 sporting events a year?

2 minutes ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

When having a conversation about high speed rail I like to remind people how large the united states actually is. Normandy to Berlin is 600ish miles. That's the distance from New York to a point in Ohio short of the Indiana border. Paris to Milan is the distance from NYC to Cleveland. Point being is that 600-700 miles gets you halfway across Europe. It does not get you halfway across the US in any direction. At 200mph a NYC to Chicago trip will take you four hours with no stops. A trip from Toronto to NYC will take you more than 2.5 hours with no stops. Stopping at the border or anywhere else will increase that time. It is unreasonable to expect that a train wouldn't stop in Buffalo, Syracuse, and Albany at a minimum. Rochester is also likely. Add 10 minutes for each stop at least.  Now you are at 3.25 hours without factoring in the border. How much is this trip going to cost compared to a plane for it to take 3 times longer?

High speed rail has a place but that route simply isn't the place it needs to start. Have real high speed rail in the northeast corridor where people still actually use the train regularly now and then work from there. Connecting ny to Pittsburgh for example is a GIANT pain in the ass for rail, go see the Altoona curve for evidence. Connecting any rail through Chicago is a mess already and that whole area needs to be reworked for regular rail let alone high speed. For lots of trips the distances are just going to be too large to make sense. NYC to Miami is 1300 miles. That's a 6.5 hour ride with no stops. More than twice as long as a flight and, again, there is no way it's a non stop train. It will stop in Philly and Baltimore and Washington etc.

All good point. 

[nfreeman]

34 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Wanted to, but never got the chance.  Thing only ran a few months on a couple of occasions & then. was shut down for good.

And, it might have been fun for you & your family to take it, but staying on the Thruway & driving directly to TO would've been quicker for you.

Heck, even starting right from the dock, you could drive from Ra-cha-cha to TO almost as quickly as you could sail.  Starting out from the Thruway; the ferry wasn't even close to as quick a trip.

The drive from NYC to Toronto is freaking awful.  7-8 hrs to the border, then the border wait, then the traffic between the border and Toronto -- I'm never doing it again.  But 6 hrs to the ferry terminal, then getting out of the car and having a beer on a high-speed ferry with fresh air on the lake, maybe some duty-free shopping and expedited customs/immigration -- that sounded like a huge improvement.

 

[mjd1001]

53 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You want to spend $B's to shave at absolute most, 1-1/2 hours, and more likely 20 minutes, out of a trip?

There are situations where high speed rail could be viable.  A Buffalo to TO run has to be 1,000th or so on that list IMHO.

But Buffalo (or at least some parts of the suburbs) can be a 'stop along the way' on a route like NY city to Toronto or Boston to Toronto (or either of them to Boston)

I think the new High speed trains already running in China go from Shanghai to Beijing in under 4.5 hours. That is about 750 miles.  A route from NYC to toronto (minus the time for border crossing) would take about 3 total hours at the same rate.  Now, we all hear about new tracks, right of way...all the stuff that is likely not going to make that happen here in our life time....but if we could just MATCH the average route speed of that train in China...imagine a 2.5 hour train ride to NY city or Boston from Buffalo? Downtown Toronto in less than 30 minutes?  Imagine if 20-30 years ago the USA decided to apply itself to be a LEADER in high speed train technology and put the money into it?